Freedom

[Arthur]

Freedom is an ideal. Ideals are concepts. Concepts are not free.

 

[dblack]

The gilded cage metaphor is interesting for it gets at a truth that we'll come back to. Let's not narrow freedom down to simply political means and ends but extend the concept. The idea that one can be free simply when desire meets our personal ambitions is interesting if hard to nail down. When I give a bum, sitting on a heated vent, a dollar have I set them free. They may be more free than most already. Everyone is tied down in life. We all like to pretend (think?) we are free to do as we please but if you did so you'd soon find yourself alone.

Class, wealth, power, authority, ideology, religion, culture, security, all exert pressure on our freedoms or allow freedom. So how can we ever claim freedom exists, it brings us back to the positive versus the negative freedom question. Do some people have more freedom than others? If they do why?

So, is your interest, in this thread, to talk about the general aspects of freedom? Or the negative/positive freedom characterization? I'm interested in discussing either.

 

[akelch]

For me. Freedom is to be forgiven and to forgive.

 

[midcan5]

The gilded cage metaphor is interesting for it gets at a truth that we'll come back to. Let's not narrow freedom down to simply political means and ends but extend the concept. The idea that one can be free simply when desire meets our personal ambitions is interesting if hard to nail down. When I give a bum, sitting on a heated vent, a dollar have I set them free. They may be more free than most already. Everyone is tied down in life. We all like to pretend (think?) we are free to do as we please but if you did so you'd soon find yourself alone.

Class, wealth, power, authority, ideology, religion, culture, security, all exert pressure on our freedoms or allow freedom. So how can we ever claim freedom exists, it brings us back to the positive versus the negative freedom question. Do some people have more freedom than others? If they do why?

So, is your interest, in this thread, to talk about the general aspects of freedom? Or the negative/positive freedom characterization? I'm interested in discussing either.

I guess both but in either case it seems we need some examples. As someone noted above freedom is an ideal, an idea that gets bantered about but is hard to tackle outside time and place. Some time ago I wrote this piece: http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/50799-is-freedom-real.html Very simply my argument was with the broad brush freedom that has come to be known as libertarianism. Like the song, 'all you need is love,' for the libertarian 'all you need is freedom.' But freedom means nothing outside of context and context often involves power. It also involves responsibility as someone also mentioned above. But am I really sure?

When someone says we are losing our freedom my question becomes how are you losing something you didn't really have in the first place. If for instance the ACA becomes reality, I think it will, all of us who don't already pay for healthcare will be forced to pay up. This is then derided as a loss of freedom. But before this requirement you didn't have freedom as you really had nothing. Now you have a responsibility. Just words? Hm....


"Freedom would be not to choose between black and white but to abjure such prescribed choices." Theodor Adorno

 

[midcan5]

While reading another thread on which I'll comment later it occurred to me that there is a place in which freedom can be [sorta] real? Any guesses.

 

[spectrumc01]

While reading another thread on which I'll comment later it occurred to me that there is a place in which freedom can be [sorta] real? Any guesses.

In the ground. Unless you are religious, in which case you have never been free and even after death you are not truly free as your deity will dictate what you can and can't do, think or feel.

 

[BreezeWood]

... and even after death you are not truly free as your deity will dictate what you can and can't do, think or feel.

and even after death ...


is that your physiological form your Spirit has learned to manage without and stays alive ?

if so, the universe is a big place and the Deity may prove the least of your worries.

 

[Votto]

Freedom is something we all seek to attain, like a carrot dangling in front of us. Then when we obtain such freedom, it gives rise to trying to make others serve us and conform to our brand of "freedom". In short, people seek power, secure power, and then seek more power to enhance such "freedoms". That is the ironic aspect of freedom.

Looking at the history of mankind, the human race has succeeded in causing an elite few to enslave his fellow man in large part. Now democracy is sold to us as being our source of freedom. The funny part is there are no democracies. The other absurdity is that if we did live in a democracy, mob rule does not equate to freedom.

For the most part, people embrace freedom, so long as it is their brand of freedom. Once you offend their sensibilities, however, all bets are off. Then it is time to create laws and enforce them.

 

[midcan5]

While I consider [political or societal] freedom an abstract concept in need of context and explanation - while reading the 'transgender' thread it occurred to me there are other types of freedom. One is the fact a person online can hate, or find other people so different, their reaction is one of criticism. Imagine life lived so narrowly free that you possess the ability to say that another is aberrant [choose your pejorative]. Next thought was can we live freely in our minds? Or are we similar to computers in that our program is a given and our conscious is a reflection only of our unconscious. That is all that came before. My challenge to those who think that sexuality is a choice, orientation that is, is to imagine they are different. Since it is only in your mind and since we all assume freedom is real, can we think in that manner. I cannot for instance imagine being a woman for not only is the biology different but all options are different. But a trans person does. What thinks thou.

 

[Michelle420]

While I consider [political or societal] freedom an abstract concept in need of context and explanation - while reading the 'transgender' thread it occurred to me there are other types of freedom. One is the fact a person online can hate, or find other people so different, their reaction is one of criticism. Imagine life lived so narrowly free that you possess the ability to say that another is aberrant [choose your pejorative]. Next thought was can we live freely in our minds? Or are we similar to computers in that our program is a given and our conscious is a reflection only of our unconscious. That is all that came before. My challenge to those who think that sexuality is a choice, orientation that is, is to imagine they are different. Since it is only in your mind and since we all assume freedom is real, can we think in that manner. I cannot for instance imagine being a woman for not only is the biology different but all options are different. But a trans person does. What thinks thou.

I know we need sleep, food and water, those are basic needs to keep us going.

Once we form a tribe or society the rest is socially constructed and relative to the majority culture or the propaganda of those who hold the power to influence the rest of the group.

Since sex and gender is also socially constructed I would think that in a natural environment you would just be who you are and there would be no problem.

 

[midcan5]

How though does a social construct come to be? What factors create any particular society? Eskimos and Pygmies surely construct a different world? And back OT, if societies are socially constructed whither freedom? [book below is worth your time if topic interests you]

"Politics, ideology, and power matter more than metaphysics to most advocates of construction analyses of social and cultural phenomena. Talk of construction tends to undermine the authority of knowledge and categorization. It challenges complacent assumptions about the inevitability of what we have found out or our present ways of doing things." Ian Hacking 'The Social Construction of What'

 

[Michelle420]

How though does a social construct come to be? What factors create any particular society? Eskimos and Pygmies surely construct a different world? And back OT, if societies are socially constructed whither freedom? [book below is worth your time if topic interests you]

"Politics, ideology, and power matter more than metaphysics to most advocates of construction analyses of social and cultural phenomena. Talk of construction tends to undermine the authority of knowledge and categorization. It challenges complacent assumptions about the inevitability of what we have found out or our present ways of doing things." Ian Hacking 'The Social Construction of What'

It is my opinion everything is socially constructed.

I will add it to my collections of book recommends. Thank you.

I currently have a lot of reading lists so I can't say when I will get to it but I will keep it in mind.

 

[AquaAthena]

'Freedom' is heard often: as an ideal, a goal, sometimes apology. Some claim they represent freedom and others are presumably opposed to freedom. Certain ideas make freedom possible while others do not. So what is freedom? Is it just a word that changes meaning dependent on the user or use? Or is there a real thing called freedom?

Freedom, to me, means to be able, willing and ready to live my life without the constraints of marriage or religion. Living one's life by the Golden Rule, brings individual freedom and everyone wins.

Freedom from oppressive governmental tyranny is something to be fought for, and won. The more the government takes from one's life, the less freedoms, the victim has. It takes our power and hands it to the government, which is the goal of this administration, as of this date in time.

 

[midcan5]

...Freedom, to me, means to be able, willing and ready to live my life without the constraints of marriage or religion. Living one's life by the Golden Rule, brings individual freedom and everyone wins....

While the Golden rule is an excellent concept, in life we do not find it very often. Think only of intolerance based on personal or religious convictions.

"Freedom is not absence of dependence; it is simply absence of external impediments to motion." Hobbes from article below.

Interesting interview from a thinker on freedom.

"These writers were interested in the broader question of what it means to say of individuals – or even of whole bodies of people – that they have been made to live in the manner of slaves. The answer they give is that, if you are subject to the arbitrary will of anyone else, such that you are dependent on their mere goodwill, then you may be said to be living in servitude, however elevated may be your position in society. So, for example, Tacitus speaks of the servitude of the entire senatorial class under the Emperor Tiberius, so wholly subject were they to his lethal caprice."

Liberty before liberalism & all that » 3:AM Magazine

The above piece poses several interesting questions for the contemporary 'freedom is all you need advocate.'

 

[dblack]

...Freedom, to me, means to be able, willing and ready to live my life without the constraints of marriage or religion. Living one's life by the Golden Rule, brings individual freedom and everyone wins....

While the Golden rule is an excellent concept, in life we do not find it very often. Think only of intolerance based on personal or religious convictions.

The golden rule doesn't suffice, in my view. There are plenty of masochists in the world.

 

[Wyld Kard]

Freedom is an illusion!

 

[originalthought]

Freedom is the gilded cage, but is it so bad?

True freedom can only be achieved when you are alone. The moment you introduce a second person into the mix freedoms are immediately restricted. The first person does not have the right to kill the second person or visa versa. The more civilized you become the more freedoms you sacrifice.

So the question becomes what freedoms are we willing to curb and which ones are we not willing to sacrifice, and that will tell us what kind of society we want.

True freedom can come when all people value indivual property. If all people value individual property, no matter how many are introduced, all can maintain absolute freedom.

There is no reason to lose freedom with more civilization. In fact, if you look at history, you will find the exact opposite. Think about the dark ages when people had no freedom and no private property, it was held by Kings and nobles. Now think to our time. Surely all people would agree that we are more civilized than the societies in the dark ages. And I would argue that we are more free than any of those societies of the dark ages.

 

[hangover]

Freedom is the inalienable right to smoke a joint in the pursuit of happiness.

Anyone that thinks any U.S. citizens are free with a $17 trillion national debt, is as stupid as politicians want them to be.

 

[midcan5]

Freedom is the inalienable right to smoke a joint in the pursuit of happiness.

Anyone that thinks any U.S. citizens are free with a $17 trillion national debt, is as stupid as politicians want them to be.

The nation's debt has been reduced by half since Obama was elected, does that mean our freedom is only reduced by some intangible amount now?

If a child is born into the world in poverty does that mean they are less free than those who are privileged in society?

If a child is born into a religious sect that manages their environment and knowledge is that child free?

If a person because of their natural abilities is unable to perform tasks and actions that a normal person would be able to do, is that person free.

Does society have a responsibility for any of the above situations if we assume, and I think we can, that these children or persons are less free than those born into privilege or ability?

 

[Spiderman]

Freedom is the inalienable right to smoke a joint in the pursuit of happiness.

Anyone that thinks any U.S. citizens are free with a $17 trillion national debt, is as stupid as politicians want them to be.

The nation's debt has been reduced by half since Obama was elected, does that mean our freedom is only reduced by some intangible amount now?

Debt and deficit are not the same thing. The debt has increased and will continue to increase.