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My question is: Why did God give us free will when he created us? It's obvious so that we could make our own decisions be they good or bad but was it to test us? What do you think?
I don't think anyone 'gave' us free will. I think we developed it.
@Ragnar- Again, I am just theorizing.
Yes we all have free will. It is self-evident.
It's part of what makes humans different from all the other animals. Conceptual knowledge means human knowledge. As opposed to sensations and preceptual knowledge. All living things use preception to survive. (sight, sound, touch ect integrated into precepts) Humans can use precepts and concepts. Our conceptual tool is our free will, our consciousness. We decide what knowledge to seek out, use, discard or intigrate into conceptual knowledge.
We can even choose not to think. To unfocus our brains as we might our eye's. However we can't choose to escape the rules of reality. We can't evade the consequences of our choices.
We not only "think therefore we are" we do so in a volitional way.
My question is: Why did God give us free will when he created us? It's obvious so that we could make our own decisions be they good or bad but was it to test us? What do you think?
I don't think anyone 'gave' us free will. I think we developed it.
@Ragnar- Again, I am just theorizing.
Cool. It's good mental exorcise. I don't claim any special insite, I'm just putting out there what I've gathered and my incomplete understanding of the philosophers I've read and tend to agree with.
As the the religious arguments, I'm an athiest and can't contribute there. I respect religious people and have some knowledge, particularly of Chritianity, but mostly it serves to inform my respect for American literature and not philosophy.
You are free to choose, you are free not to choose, even in not choosing you have still made a choice.
To argue there is no free choice is to say all of life is linear. This can not be proved. You can't prove that which does not exist.
Einstein said all possibilities exist, all at once! That aught to bake all our brains!
Free will is but an illusion. (that assumes an identity exist which is being fooled) We are the sum total of our experiences and that total is draped upon the moment which exists in the midst of our environment. (I agree with this to an extent. I think we exorcise some control of "our experiences" and we definatly have some control or our environment... I mean localy) Every thought and every action we we commit or are subject to is the result of an intricate tapestry of cause and effect.
Like the bees that are drawn to fly from flower to flower, we are drawn to move from action to action. (unlike the purly animal instinct, our minds are not programmed to function on auto-pilot like our hearts and lungs. We must think and reason to live and we must chose to think. That is what I meant by "man the volitional animal" )And yet, the illusion of free will is created only because we are not privey to the whole picture. If we were able to see the whole picture in every intimate detail, we would see that every action is as predictable as if we had read the script before we watched the play.
We are slaves to our own responses to an environment and past that we, ourselves, are the effect of. Dust in the wind. (I don't believe a true slave would have both the capasity to be self aware of his own slavery, and not self aware enough to choose an escape at the same time. It seems a contradiction and logicly a contradiction can not exist)
OR:
We are like sailors in a boat in heavy seas driven by strong winds. We cannot guide the wind, but we can adjust our sails. (I agree in a part nature part nurture free will)
In the end, it desn't matter which belief you hold or which belief holds you. Your life will get better or worse due largely to your own actions and goals. (this IMHO means free will) Whether those actions are the result of free will or detemined by cause and effect, you perish or prosper and nobody else really cares enough to prevent your own triumph or disaster.
If you are a fatalist, your life, your happiness, your misery or impact on others is not your responsibility. If you are a free will proponent, your life is your responsibility. The choice you make in taking up either belief system is either a free one or the result of forces you cannot control.
In either case, the choice is one that will make you feel better.( I think this is a repeat of the "illusion" falasy. If there is a non-robotic you to "feel" one way or another... the fact of a "choice" presumes free will.)
Free will is but an illusion. (that assumes an identity exist which is being fooled) We are the sum total of our experiences and that total is draped upon the moment which exists in the midst of our environment. (I agree with this to an extent. I think we exorcise some control of "our experiences" and we definatly have some control or our environment... I mean localy) Every thought and every action we we commit or are subject to is the result of an intricate tapestry of cause and effect.
Like the bees that are drawn to fly from flower to flower, we are drawn to move from action to action. (unlike the purly animal instinct, our minds are not programmed to function on auto-pilot like our hearts and lungs. We must think and reason to live and we must chose to think. That is what I meant by "man the volitional animal" )And yet, the illusion of free will is created only because we are not privey to the whole picture. If we were able to see the whole picture in every intimate detail, we would see that every action is as predictable as if we had read the script before we watched the play.
We are slaves to our own responses to an environment and past that we, ourselves, are the effect of. Dust in the wind. (I don't believe a true slave would have both the capasity to be self aware of his own slavery, and not self aware enough to choose an escape at the same time. It seems a contradiction and logicly a contradiction can not exist)
OR:
We are like sailors in a boat in heavy seas driven by strong winds. We cannot guide the wind, but we can adjust our sails. (I agree in a part nature part nurture free will)
In the end, it desn't matter which belief you hold or which belief holds you. Your life will get better or worse due largely to your own actions and goals. (this IMHO means free will) Whether those actions are the result of free will or detemined by cause and effect, you perish or prosper and nobody else really cares enough to prevent your own triumph or disaster.
If you are a fatalist, your life, your happiness, your misery or impact on others is not your responsibility. If you are a free will proponent, your life is your responsibility. The choice you make in taking up either belief system is either a free one or the result of forces you cannot control.
In either case, the choice is one that will make you feel better.( I think this is a repeat of the "illusion" falasy. If there is a non-robotic you to "feel" one way or another... the fact of a "choice" presumes free will.)
I want to just clarify something I said in the red portion above, contradictions can exist for a period of time, or appear to in humdrum everyday life. However "Logical contradictions" can not. Where you see those, check your premises, one of them is wrong. (or both are, lol)
Do we really have any free will? All of our decisions are influenced by our environment and surroundings- thus not 'free'. Even though we make a choice out of several choices it doesn't mean that it was a completely objective, or 'free' choice. In fact, you could easily make the argument it is impossible to reach an objective point of view.
I think it's really hard to explain, but I hope you guys get my point.
Discuss.
You are free to choose, you are free not to choose, even in not choosing you have still made a choice.
To argue there is no free choice is to say all of life is linear. This can not be proved. You can't prove that which does not exist.
Einstein said all possibilities exist, all at once! That aught to bake all our brains!
I choose to post in this thread
free will proven.
Do we really have any free will? All of our decisions are influenced by our environment and surroundings- thus not 'free'. Even though we make a choice out of several choices it doesn't mean that it was a completely objective, or 'free' choice. In fact, you could easily make the argument it is impossible to reach an objective point of view.
I think it's really hard to explain, but I hope you guys get my point.
Discuss.
I just took a deep breath.
No one told me to do it.
You are free to choose, you are free not to choose, even in not choosing you have still made a choice.
To argue there is no free choice is to say all of life is linear. This can not be proved. You can't prove that which does not exist.
Einstein said all possibilities exist, all at once! That aught to bake all our brains!
I choose to post in this thread
free will proven.
My question is: Why did God give us free will when he created us? It's obvious so that we could make our own decisions be they good or bad but was it to test us? What do you think?
Free will is but an illusion. (that assumes an identity exist which is being fooled) We are the sum total of our experiences and that total is draped upon the moment which exists in the midst of our environment. (I agree with this to an extent. I think we exorcise some control of "our experiences" and we definatly have some control or our environment... I mean localy) Every thought and every action we we commit or are subject to is the result of an intricate tapestry of cause and effect.
Like the bees that are drawn to fly from flower to flower, we are drawn to move from action to action. (unlike the purly animal instinct, our minds are not programmed to function on auto-pilot like our hearts and lungs. We must think and reason to live and we must chose to think. That is what I meant by "man the volitional animal" )And yet, the illusion of free will is created only because we are not privey to the whole picture. If we were able to see the whole picture in every intimate detail, we would see that every action is as predictable as if we had read the script before we watched the play.
We are slaves to our own responses to an environment and past that we, ourselves, are the effect of. Dust in the wind. (I don't believe a true slave would have both the capasity to be self aware of his own slavery, and not self aware enough to choose an escape at the same time. It seems a contradiction and logicly a contradiction can not exist)
OR:
We are like sailors in a boat in heavy seas driven by strong winds. We cannot guide the wind, but we can adjust our sails. (I agree in a part nature part nurture free will)
In the end, it desn't matter which belief you hold or which belief holds you. Your life will get better or worse due largely to your own actions and goals. (this IMHO means free will) Whether those actions are the result of free will or detemined by cause and effect, you perish or prosper and nobody else really cares enough to prevent your own triumph or disaster.
If you are a fatalist, your life, your happiness, your misery or impact on others is not your responsibility. If you are a free will proponent, your life is your responsibility. The choice you make in taking up either belief system is either a free one or the result of forces you cannot control.
In either case, the choice is one that will make you feel better.( I think this is a repeat of the "illusion" falasy. If there is a non-robotic you to "feel" one way or another... the fact of a "choice" presumes free will.)
I want to just clarify something I said in the red portion above, contradictions can exist for a period of time, or appear to in humdrum everyday life. However "Logical contradictions" can not. Where you see those, check your premises, one of them is wrong. (or both are, lol)
Free will vs. fatalism is one of those areas of thought that is what you think it is. There is no proving it either way. Did i respond to you because i was free to do so or because i was incapable of not responding to you? I makes no difference to the outcome. By the same token, if i erase this before i post it, was that a proof of free will or the result of Cause/effect. Unknowable.
All of eternity could be viewed as one elongated Butterfly Effect. Or it could be viewed as a series of unrelated and chaotic independant actions. In the end, which ever belief you embrace should be the one that makes you feel good.
It's your only wise choice, if, in truth, it is your choice at all.
You are free to choose, you are free not to choose, even in not choosing you have still made a choice.
To argue there is no free choice is to say all of life is linear. This can not be proved. You can't prove that which does not exist.
Einstein said all possibilities exist, all at once! That aught to bake all our brains!
I choose to post in this thread
free will proven.
Due to all of the experiences you carry, you had no choice. You were forced to post by the all of the causes pushing you through your life. This particular post will itself become a cause of another action and that will cause another and so on ad infnitum.
I choose to post in this thread
free will proven.
Due to all of the experiences you carry, you had no choice. You were forced to post by the all of the causes pushing you through your life. This particular post will itself become a cause of another action and that will cause another and so on ad infnitum.
It is sad that you actually believe that, I was not compelled to post. I could have walked away or not it was a conscious choice to post.
I want to just clarify something I said in the red portion above, contradictions can exist for a period of time, or appear to in humdrum everyday life. However "Logical contradictions" can not. Where you see those, check your premises, one of them is wrong. (or both are, lol)
Free will vs. fatalism is one of those areas of thought that is what you think it is. There is no proving it either way. Did i respond to you because i was free to do so or because i was incapable of not responding to you? I makes no difference to the outcome. By the same token, if i erase this before i post it, was that a proof of free will or the result of Cause/effect. Unknowable.
All of eternity could be viewed as one elongated Butterfly Effect. Or it could be viewed as a series of unrelated and chaotic independant actions. In the end, which ever belief you embrace should be the one that makes you feel good.
It's your only wise choice, if, in truth, it is your choice at all.
In fact free will is the only choice reguardless of how it makes you feel. (the other advocating there is no such thing as choice)
If there is no free will, no choice then there is no higher level of thinking. No morality. No real human knowledge as we (think we) know it. Why can't a tree choose to mangle it's roots, refuse water, hide from the sun? Why can't a salmon ignore the necessity to swim up stream? IOW, Why can't living things w/o free will choose their own destruction. Humans not only are higher level animals but have evolved into beings of volitional will. We not only can choose to think, in order to live... we must.
There is no "embracing" non-choice. There is no "knowing" that one thing is unknowable sans a concious, free thinking mind. One can choose "wrong" options be it religion or "Butterfly Effect" or some kind of rationalisation. But choice qua choice is a non-starter.
I'm glad of this topic and not ignoring anyone, but I'm crashing early to watch some Olympics and indulge in some self-destructive behaviour vis a vie alcohol and cigarettes, behaviour by the way, one rarely spots in say... a fish. hmmm
Due to all of the experiences you carry, you had no choice. You were forced to post by the all of the causes pushing you through your life. This particular post will itself become a cause of another action and that will cause another and so on ad infnitum.
It is sad that you actually believe that, I was not compelled to post. I could have walked away or not it was a conscious choice to post.
I don't recall which two philosophers were arguing this point, but the debate was paused as the day ran out to be continued on the following morning.
When the Determinist proponent arrived back the following morning, the Free Will Proponent was still in the auditorium and he said that since he had chosen to stay in the audtorium all night, that proved that he had a free will.
The Determinist replied that this only reinforced the evidence of determinism since this showed beyond doubt that he was forced to stay in auditorium to prove his point. He could not have done anything else.
So goes the argument. There is nothing that we can do that can prove free will or determinism in a philosophical way. It is only how each of us as individuals view the act of making a choice that will carry the day , but only carry the day for each individual in his own heart.
It really doesn't matter since the act of making a choice, whether it is free will or determined by cause effect, is exactly the same act conducted with exactly the same steps.
Free will would indicate absolute responsibility while determinism would indicate absolute lack of responsibility. Since we're discussing this on a political message board, which political party seems more apt to embrace free will and with it responsibility and which one seems more apt to embrace determinism and with it no responsibility?
For both questions.My question is: Why did God give us free will when he created us? It's obvious so that we could make our own decisions be they good or bad but was it to test us? What do you think?
God created man in a unique way. We are created to communicate with Him. While we certainly cannot communicate on His level, we can communicate. He gave us free will because the only way one can do good is if we knew could do bad. Otherwise what would measure good? He also wanted to be sure that man understood that good was obedience, and bad was disobedience toward God. Remember, Satan already tested that idea and lost. It is not a test, it is a way for God to create in us a knowledge that we do indeed need a higher being. That is true through all of history, babies need adults to show them and help them to grow.
Religion is a treacherous area for believers argue free will. No free will? No justification for the reward of heaven or the punishment of hell. There is free will? Justification exists unless...
What if God is the all knowing, all seeing omnipotent master of the Universe? Does he not know all and see all and always was and always will be and does he not know the future as well as the past?
If this is so, does he not know the complete story of every life prior to that life being lived?
Does he not know the exact destination of every soul before those souls ever even gain life?
Which is it? A not so omnipotent, not so much a master as maybe a high level manager of the Universe or a sadistic puppet master creating souls to be damned for all eternity for the folly of this mortal blink of an eye.
His purpose for creating man was not about man, it was about Him, and having a part of creation who will communicate and worship Him in love rather than loyalty, or without choice. Love, if it is real never fails, and no matter how bad a person is in life, God's love is always there for any personm to choose through free will. God has a far greater plan for man, and it goes beyong entering into eternity. He has places for His Kingdom to "reign" with Him throughout all creation, and for eternity. Up to this point, according to what we have in the Bible, no other created being has waht we have, the ability to communicate with Him, (Angles do, animals don't) to worship Him, (angels do, animals don't). The ability to love Him, which there is not a single indication in the Bible that the angels did. They were loyal, but could choose not to be. They worshipped, but could choose not to. However, nowhere do we read where angels loved God. That component makes it all something different.
The great thing about the argument of Free Will vs. Determinism is that everything involved in making a choice whether by free will or determinism "feels" exactly the same. We are not aware that our decisions are impacted and at the mercy of other decisions and causes all around us. The very fact that we consider actions before taking them is one of the causes that produces effects.
Our considerations before we choose are only effects of other causes. Every decision we make, goes the argument, could be predicted if the sum total of all of the causes were known and understood.
Like billiard balls bouncing around due to the impacts of other balls, our decisions seem free ony because we do not understand the other forcing "impacts".
Again, determinism allows for no choice (robots don't choose) so the fact that a "choice" "feels" one way or another is an argument for free will."feels" exactly the same.
To consider is to note options and imply a free will at workwe consider actions before taking them
I like that argument for its clarity but I think it's ultimatly flawed. I think it implys that if we don't know everything then that is proof that we can't know anything.if the sum total of all of the causes were known
