Free Will, Divine Foreknowledge, and Newcomb's Paradox

[5stringJeff]

One of the best things I've ever read regarding the dilemma of free will vs. predestination.

http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/000971.html

“We have to believe in free will,” said Nobel laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer when asked whether he believed in free will or determinism. “We’ve got no choice.” Singer’s quip highlights the conundrum we face in trying to decide which one to accept. While we might have the ability to freely choose to believe in determinism how would we know whether our choice to affirm free will was not determined?

A similar question arises when we consider the relationship between human free will and divine foreknowledge. If God knows everything before it happens then how can we we be responsible for the choices we make? If we accept that God can foreknow all that will ever happen, does that mean that free will is an illusion?

According to evangelical philosopher William Lane Craig, we are quite justified in believing that God has the ability to foreknow events without having to accept the conclusion that such knowledge causes us to make the choices we do. In order to arrive at that determination, though, we must first take a detour through the philosophical puzzle know as Newcomb’s Paradox.

Click the link for more...

 

[manu1959]

interesting............however....the therory does not address the choice not to choose and it does not address those that place no value on wealth

 

[manu1959]

if you belive in free will...it is possible that you are only being presented with those choices which you are destined to choose from and that those paths and thier subsequant paths are set as it is known which one you would choose

if you belive in destiny....it is possible that you are only being presented with those choices which you are destined to choose from and that those paths and thier subsequant paths are set as it is known which one you would choose

either way the results are the same

how about this one.......... can you actually see the sun set?

 

[sagegirl]

Of course we have free will, why else would we be here.

I guess if your belief system includes God, and then you believe further that God is actively involved, and a determining factor in your daily routines, you may be able to pass the buck. But then I have to question the process of prayer. Why bother????

 

[Bonnie]

I believe in both...........Free will is given always, divine will is given when asked for it.

 

[5stringJeff]

interesting............however....the therory does not address the choice not to choose and it does not address those that place no value on wealth

Very true... but then again, it was an example. I would assume that one would be free to walk away, but it was not discussed because the dilemma was around the contents of box 2. If one walks away from it all then there's no dilemma.

 

[5stringJeff]

if you belive in free will...it is possible that you are only being presented with those choices which you are destined to choose from and that those paths and thier subsequant paths are set as it is known which one you would choose

if you belive in destiny....it is possible that you are only being presented with those choices which you are destined to choose from and that those paths and thier subsequant paths are set as it is known which one you would choose

either way the results are the same

how about this one.......... can you actually see the sun set?

Actually, you described only the possibilty for predetermination. You left out the possibility that you are presented with a range of choices and that you are free to choose whatever you'd like.

And I cannot watch the sun set... but that's just because I have a forest blocking my view of the horizon!

 

[5stringJeff]

Of course we have free will, why else would we be here.

I guess if your belief system includes God, and then you believe further that God is actively involved, and a determining factor in your daily routines, you may be able to pass the buck. But then I have to question the process of prayer. Why bother????

Didn't mean to be confusing. I certainly believe in free will. But free will strengthens my belief in prayer. One may choose to pray, or to not pray, to ask God to intervene in a certain way. But if one believes in predestination, then you are right, why bother praying?

 

[manu1959]

Actually, you described only the possibilty for predetermination. You left out the possibility that you are presented with a range of choices and that you are free to choose whatever you'd like.

And I cannot watch the sun set... but that's just because I have a forest blocking my view of the horizon!

if you are presented with a range of choces and are free to choose from that range is it not possible that the range you are presented with is predetermined and that you choice is known beforehand by the supreem being that placed the choices in front of you in the first place knowing which one you picked?

and you can not see the sun set because it has set by the time the light reaches your eys for you to see it

 

[5stringJeff]

if you are presented with a range of choces and are free to choose from that range is it not possible that the range you are presented with is predetermined and that you choice is known beforehand by the supreem being that placed the choices in front of you in the first place knowing which one you picked?

Again, the freedom to pick between a predetermined range of choices is predetermination. I submit that there is no such range of possible options, save for the laws of science (i.e. I can't choose to fly because I am not physically able to).

 

[manu1959]

Again, the freedom to pick between a predetermined range of choices is predetermination. I submit that there is no such range of possible options, save for the laws of science (i.e. I can't choose to fly because I am not physically able to).

you can not prove that the choices are not pre-determined and i can not prove that they are not........

the reason you can not fly is:

A: you define flight as not hitting the ground when you jump of a cliff

B: you are not physicaly able to beacause of gravity...in space you can fly just fine

 

[5stringJeff]

you can not prove that the choices are not pre-determined and i can not prove that they are not........

But I can deduce whether I am given predetermined choices.

First, who is giving me these choices? God, since He is described (from a Christian standpoint) as being both omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful). So, does God want to give me free will, or does God want to determine my steps for me.

God's will, as stated plainly in the Bible, is that nobody would perish (i.e. die without salvation), that people would love Him, and love other people, that people would refrian from lying, stealing, sex outside of marriage, covetuousness, worshipping other gods, etc.

However, people do die without salvation, they do not love God or other people, they lie, steal, sleep around, covet, worship other gods, etc.

If God was able to predetermine our steps, according to His will, we would not have sin in this world.

Therefore, we can deduce that God has given us free will.

 

[Bonnie]

Didn't mean to be confusing. I certainly believe in free will. But free will strengthens my belief in prayer. One may choose to pray, or to not pray, to ask God to intervene in a certain way. But if one believes in predestination, then you are right, why bother praying?

Dead on!!

 

[Rab1dluc1d1ty]

We've got free will, it's just called predetermination because God already knew what choices we'd make on a daily basis. :halo:

 

[Isaac Brock]

But I can deduce whether I am given predetermined choices.

First, who is giving me these choices? God, since He is described (from a Christian standpoint) as being both omniscient (all-knowing) and omnipotent (all-powerful). So, does God want to give me free will, or does God want to determine my steps for me.

God's will, as stated plainly in the Bible, is that nobody would perish (i.e. die without salvation), that people would love Him, and love other people, that people would refrian from lying, stealing, sex outside of marriage, covetuousness, worshipping other gods, etc.

However, people do die without salvation, they do not love God or other people, they lie, steal, sleep around, covet, worship other gods, etc.

If God was able to predetermine our steps, according to His will, we would not have sin in this world.

Therefore, we can deduce that God has given us free will.

So then even if we have free will to make choices, do you believe, in your view, that God does know what choice we will make?

 

[5stringJeff]

So then even if we have free will to make choices, do you believe, in your view, that God does know what choice we will make?

Yes, I believe that God knows the choices we will make, because I believe that God is outside of the confines of times. You and I are within the confines of time, which is one-directional (forward), and so we cannot know the future. God can (and does) know the future.

However, this is where people get twisted around, IMO. Some people claim that a knowledge of future events presupposes your power to effect those events. In other words, because God knows the future, He causes that future to occur by causing us to act in a certain way (i.e. predetermination). BUt I reject this notion, because it's not necessarily true. For example, I can watch my 11-year old daughter drink a 2-liter of Mountain Dew. I know that she is going to have a sudden energy burst, and I know that she will really have to use the bathroom in a couple of hours. But I did not cause these things to happen; I just know that they will happen.

That's why I believe in free will.

 

[UsaPride]

That's why I believe in free will.

I tried to rep you and couldn't so I'll say it here, Great Post!!
I feel the same way but couldn't explain it, thank you!

 

[Isaac Brock]

Yes, I believe that God knows the choices we will make, because I believe that God is outside of the confines of times. You and I are within the confines of time, which is one-directional (forward), and so we cannot know the future. God can (and does) know the future.

However, this is where people get twisted around, IMO. Some people claim that a knowledge of future events presupposes your power to effect those events. In other words, because God knows the future, He causes that future to occur by causing us to act in a certain way (i.e. predetermination). BUt I reject this notion, because it's not necessarily true. For example, I can watch my 11-year old daughter drink a 2-liter of Mountain Dew. I know that she is going to have a sudden energy burst, and I know that she will really have to use the bathroom in a couple of hours. But I did not cause these things to happen; I just know that they will happen.

That's why I believe in free will.

Still poses a spiritual conundrum for me, but thanks for the reply. I'm edging at what you're getting at.