Free Trade and Protectionism

[editec]

...The numbers clearly show that free trade is good for an economy...

What numbers would those be exactly? Certainly NOT the balance of trade numbers...

No, that phoney 'trade-balance' nonsense is good for union thugs and bad for the rest of us. We care more about employment and income numbers because we want jobs to make money to feed our families --not pay for Hoffa's booze tab. Sure, if anyone wants we can always go over employment/income data again now, but most here either already know tariffs are stupid or they're unwilling to face reality.

The balance of trade statistics are phoney?!


So the government posts them in conspiracy with the UNIONS?

Is that you theory?

You're a conspiracy theoist when it comes to this issue?

I'm surprised to read that, Xpat.

 

[expat_panama]

...if anyone wants we can always go over employment/income data again now, but most here either already know tariffs are stupid or they're unwilling to face reality.

The balance of trade statistics are phoney?!
So the government posts them in conspiracy with the UNIONS? Is that you theory? You're a conspiracy theoist when it comes to this issue? I'm surprised to read that, Xpat.

OK, so you don't care about jobs and incomes --but hey don't get me wrong, some people like trade balances and others like me prefer jobs and incomes. The problem with trade balance people is that their stupid toy doesn't pay bills like jobs and incomes do, and that's when the trade-balance morons start raising my taxes to pay their rent.

 

[Toro]

We must learn to live with less.

We must reduce demand...

IOW we must tank the economy.

 

[Anachronism]

But are you ready to pay for it? Fewer jobs, lower standards of living, higher prices? That's the result if you ban specific imports, provide gov't handouts, enact tariffs.

How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports, we don't give government handouts to ANY company, and we force American companies to actually become AMERICAN COMPANIES making products and providing services with Americans, for Americans, in America again. If we can't make it or do it here, WE DON'T NEED IT.

 

[Wiseacre]

But are you ready to pay for it? Fewer jobs, lower standards of living, higher prices? That's the result if you ban specific imports, provide gov't handouts, enact tariffs.

How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports, we don't give government handouts to ANY company, and we force American companies to actually become AMERICAN COMPANIES making products and providing services with Americans, for Americans, in America again. If we can't make it or do it here, WE DON'T NEED IT.

Won't work. Appreciate the thought, but this approach is not feasible. Cuz there's some things we need that we ain't got. There's some things that other countries can produce a lot cheaper than we can, for whatever reason. To me the real key is for us as a group to save more, invest more, and reduce imports on stuff that we really don't need. It's one thing to import commodities or products that we can use in manufacturing something else or something better. It's another to import crap that we use and throw away.

I'm good with eliminating gov't handouts, subsidies, tax breaks, whatever to US corps, either they successfully compete on their own or they don't. But we also gotta make the business climate in this country A LOT more conducive to starting or expanding businesses. Right now it's too Goddamn hard and expensive, and we got way too many regulations to comply with. Not to say we don't need to regulate, but it's gotta be effective and it's gotta be less intrusive and expensive to comply with.

Other thing is, we need the EPA, NLRB, and other gov't alphabets to stand down a little bit instead of making it more difficult to operate. A big chunk of our trade imbalance is oil, we just gotta get off foreign oil, and that means more drilling. Trade imbalances are not that big a deal, but we need to try to limit it without resorting to protectionism.

 

[expat_panama]

...How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports...

You first. Don't drink any more coffee, don't eat any chocolate, bananas, don't sing any Beatles songs. While you're at it don't read any books written by foreign writers.

I get to read the Bible over a mocha coffee and you don't.

 

[Toro]

But are you ready to pay for it? Fewer jobs, lower standards of living, higher prices? That's the result if you ban specific imports, provide gov't handouts, enact tariffs.

How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports, we don't give government handouts to ANY company, and we force American companies to actually become AMERICAN COMPANIES making products and providing services with Americans, for Americans, in America again. If we can't make it or do it here, WE DON'T NEED IT.

That's a great idea.

If you want to take us back to the Stone Age.

 

[Anachronism]

Won't work. Appreciate the thought, but this approach is not feasible. Cuz there's some things we need that we ain't got. There's some things that other countries can produce a lot cheaper than we can, for whatever reason. To me the real key is for us as a group to save more, invest more, and reduce imports on stuff that we really don't need. It's one thing to import commodities or products that we can use in manufacturing something else or something better. It's another to import crap that we use and throw away.

Again, if we don't have it we don't need it. I'm all for reducing the amount of stuff every American owns that we don't need; regardless of where it's manufactured. I have less of a problem importing commodities and raw materials than I do manufactured goods, but until we get these companies to entertain an America First mentality, I don't even want to give them that option.

I'm good with eliminating gov't handouts, subsidies, tax breaks, whatever to US corps, either they successfully compete on their own or they don't. But we also gotta make the business climate in this country A LOT more conducive to starting or expanding businesses. Right now it's too Goddamn hard and expensive, and we got way too many regulations to comply with. Not to say we don't need to regulate, but it's gotta be effective and it's gotta be less intrusive and expensive to comply with.

You will not get the slightest disagreement from me on that topic.

Other thing is, we need the EPA, NLRB, and other gov't alphabets to stand down a little bit instead of making it more difficult to operate. A big chunk of our trade imbalance is oil, we just gotta get off foreign oil, and that means more drilling. Trade imbalances are not that big a deal, but we need to try to limit it without resorting to protectionism.

In terms of the alphabet soup groups; I think there's a middle ground that needs to be sought out in many cases. Whether it's the EPA or the NLRB, they came about for a reason. We need to get to a point where they're making sure the companies aren't taking advantage of their workers or the environment but aren't being so restrictive that they bring expansion and innovation to a halt.

You first. Don't drink any more coffee, don't eat any chocolate, bananas, don't sing any Beatles songs. While you're at it don't read any books written by foreign writers.

I get to read the Bible over a mocha coffee and you don't.

The only one of those things I would have ANY issue dealing without MIGHT be the foreign authors. I'm more of a Sun Zhu guy than a reader or the Bible, though. In fact I already don't drink coffee (I hate the taste); I rarely include chocolate in my diet; I don't eat many bananas; and I'm no great fan of the Beatles either. I'll take my "The Art of War" and a bottle of water or iced tea over the mocha and Bible every time.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I mention Adam Smith, QW, ONLY because the FREE TRADE advocates often opine that Adam Smith was an advocate of unbridled unthining FREE TRADE like we're practicing right now.

He wasn't.

If I mention him feel free to prove me wrong. Since I do not, nor does anyone else here, you mentioning him is an appeal to authority, and not an argument of merit.

What numbers would those be exactly? Certainly NOT the balance of trade numbers.

The numbers from peer reviewed studies like this one.

ftp://ftp.zew.de/pub/zew-docs/sw_2009/FelbermayrPratSchmerer_TradeAndUnemployment.pdf

There's an interesting theory.

EXcept historically that really isn't true.

Pre WWI Europe was heavily into international trade. Germany was a trade partner big time with both France and England.

They still went to war with each other.

Good theory, though, because it seems plausible.

But unhappily it's not supported by the facts.

They were also engaged in trade wars and protectionism.

Just saying.

 

[expat_panama]

...How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports...

You first...

...I'll take my "The Art of War" and a bottle of water or iced tea...

So you're really saying is that "ALL" means my imports while your books, tea and Perrier are just fine. That's usually how protectionism works and is why I can never take it seriously.

 

[Anachronism]

So you're really saying is that "ALL" means my imports while your books, tea and Perrier are just fine. That's usually how protectionism works and is why I can never take it seriously.

I said I wasn't going to banish the books. That means you can have your Bible too. I tend to drink more water (which is from Nestle, not Perrier, thank you very much) than anything else these days. I would absolutely LOVE to be able to buy everything I own American-made; even if it was more expensive and of lower quality.

 

[JBeukema]

We must learn to live with less.

We must reduce demand...

Those words are often spoken by leftists living in a Marxist fantasyland, the idea being that the WE can control the market's supply and demand and can decide how much all individuals will be allowed to live on. Switching over to the Planet Earth finds a bloated state that collapses after years of shooting at its fleeing population.

Actually, I was hinting at the globalists' plan for world depopulation

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely – improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion – faith – tradition – and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth – beauty – love – seeking harmony with the infinite.
10. Be not a cancer on the earth – Leave room for nature – Leave room for nature.

Sinister Sites: The Georgia Guidestones | The Vigilant Citizen

 

[JBeukema]

We must learn to live with less.

We must reduce demand...

IOW we must tank the economy.

Reducing Demand through depopulation...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWyL9dg8la8]YouTube - ‪Bill Gates Admits To His Population Control Programs‬‏[/ame]

 

[expat_panama]

...How about THIS.... We ban ALL imports...

You first...

...I'll take my "The Art of War" and a bottle of water or iced tea...

So you're really saying is that "ALL" means my imports...

I said I wasn't going to banish the books. That means you can have your Bible...

How very kind of you --you'll have to share with us a complete list of all the imports you approve of. We got tea, books, what else?

I would absolutely LOVE to be able to buy everything I own American-made...

You can start right now and live only on all US goods, you don't need tea and books for survival. While you're at it you can limit your food intake to only those things you can grow on your front lawn and that way you can end the trade deficit you have with your grocery store.

OK, I'm joking because that would mean a short miserable life. Then again, that's precisely what protectionism provides.

 

[JBeukema]

that would mean a short miserable life. Then again, that's precisely what protectionism provides.

Where were aqua dots and all those chromium-laced bits of jewelry made?

 

[expat_panama]

that would mean a short miserable life. Then again, that's precisely what protectionism provides.

Where were aqua dots and all those chromium-laced bits of jewelry made?

Metals! People talk about US steel not mentioning that the trace metals for alloys have to be imported.

 

[Anachronism]

How very kind of you --you'll have to share with us a complete list of all the imports you approve of. We got tea, books, what else?

Again, if we were to ever go to this, I could live without the tea and books. We have plenty of fine authors here in the United States and as I said, I drink mostly water anyway.

You can start right now and live only on all US goods, you don't need tea and books for survival. While you're at it you can limit your food intake to only those things you can grow on your front lawn and that way you can end the trade deficit you have with your grocery store.

I don't have very good luck growing things. Given an option, if I had a place with a yard it would be paved over or covered in concrete so I didn't have to deal with mowing, weeding, planting, etc...

Though I would like to see a newly manufactured AMERICAN automobile, if you can come up with one.... That is a car DESIGNED BY, MANUFACTURED BY, MADE FROM PARTS PRODUCED HERE, and from an AMERICAN COMPANY. I don't believe there is one out there today.

OK, I'm joking because that would mean a short miserable life. Then again, that's precisely what protectionism provides.

I'd rather a short, miserable life than a long one beholding to my Enemies, thank you very much.

 

[expat_panama]

...you can end the trade deficit you have with your grocery store.

I don't have very good luck growing things. Given an option, if I had a place with a yard it would be paved over or covered in concrete so I didn't have to deal with mowing, weeding, planting, etc...

Why is a trade deficient with your grocer OK but a trade deficit with Canada bad?

...Though I would like to see a newly manufactured AMERICAN automobile...

All American automobiles have always included imported materials like rubber, chromium, and the trace element alloys that turn iron into steel. That's why car manufactures set up shop in Detroit, a border town with foreign vendors a few feet away.

...I'd rather a short, miserable life than a long one beholding to my Enemies, thank you very much.

What have all Canadians and now also myself (I'm outside the US this morning) done to you to be considered your enemy?

 

[sparky]

The logic that any given middle class lifestyle sustainability is based on overall consumption costs, rather than the fruits of it's production is so skewed , it falls on it's face as undebatable

No one of you opining here, would in your micro-economic cocoons, have the ability to sustain any such standard, yet seem to think the concept reverses dircetion in the macro-economic arena

bolderdash, poppycock, guffaw, all sold to you by the elitists who are feathering thier lifeboats via the disparity created by such policies since the Reganista's rode into town

Simply put, only manufacturing can pull us out of the economic dive we're in. No tickey, no laundry peeps!

In 1980, around the time that globalization exploded and free trade agreements became more prevalent, the U.S. had 19.2 million manufacturing jobs. Since then, the sector’s total employment has fallen to just 11.6 million as jobs are outsourced to low-wage nations, like Mexico and China.

No matter how much economic activity picks up in the coming years, it likely won’t be enough to replace those millions of manufacturing jobs. To achieve that, national policymakers will need to not only abandon, but reverse America’s failed trade policies.

Only Manufacturing Can Bring Real Recovery | Economy In Crisis

 

[Anachronism]

Why is a trade deficient with your grocer OK but a trade deficit with Canada bad?

The grocer CAN, and SHOULD BE procuring those items from American sources, therefore they are still acceptable items. Nothing bought from Canada can be an American product.

All American automobiles have always included imported materials like rubber, chromium, and the trace element alloys that turn iron into steel. That's why car manufactures set up shop in Detroit, a border town with foreign vendors a few feet away.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm LESS upset about the idea of bringing in raw materials than I am finished products. I'd still like to get as much of that stuff here in the US as possible, but I can go a lot further towards accepting those materials than I can to accepting completed parts being brought in from Japan and other places.

What have all Canadians and now also myself (I'm outside the US this morning) done to you to be considered your enemy?

Been born in the wrong place, or been silly (I'm trying to be polite) enough to leave the borders of the United States of their own choice. I'm a Nationalist and an Isolationist at heart, panama.