Free Trade and Protectionism

Wiseacre

Retired USAF Chief
Apr 8, 2011
6,025
1,298
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San Antonio, TX
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.
 
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.


You make some valid points but the macro-economic reality is not quite so simple as that.

Free trade as currently practiced is not a boon to this society.

Contrary to what you have probably been told, even Adam Smith was not an advocate of free trade (like the FT which the USA is currently practicing).
 
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.

Those who advocate for protectionism have absolutly no clue of how the balance of trade works. And unfortunantly there arent enough hours of the day to teach a lesson on economics in a forum.
 
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.


You make some valid points but the macro-economic reality is not quite so simple as that.

Free trade as currently practiced is not a boon to this society.

Why not? Lay it on me dude.

Contrary to what you have probably been told, even Adam Smith was not an advocate of free trade (like the FT which the USA is currently practicing).


Couldn't care less what Adam Smith thinks, the guy's been dead for what, 300 years?
 
Hmmmm. In general I agree. In specific cases I support out right bans on imports.

First, we absolutely need some manufacturing base for military reasons. Yup, we need enough steel plants, wafer plants, bomb plants, whatever to make tanks and planes in the event push comes to shove. I support our militaty and distrust the Chinese enough I am not giving that up.

How is the military going to keep them privately owned plants running when other placez can do it cheaper? Givernment hand outs or tariffs.

Next I support tariffs as a political tool. If I dont like the environmental or human rights record of your country enough, here comes a tariff. Get our allies to sign on and you can encourage a foreign country to meet SOME safety or environmental standards. Oh, and if you tariff my exports I will tariff your imports. Not living in the age of the Marshall Plan anymore.

So yes, I understand the theory of free trade but demand some flexibility.
 
Hmmmm. In general I agree. In specific cases I support out right bans on imports.

First, we absolutely need some manufacturing base for military reasons. Yup, we need enough steel plants, wafer plants, bomb plants, whatever to make tanks and planes in the event push comes to shove. I support our militaty and distrust the Chinese enough I am not giving that up.

How is the military going to keep them privately owned plants running when other placez can do it cheaper? Givernment hand outs or tariffs.

Next I support tariffs as a political tool. If I dont like the environmental or human rights record of your country enough, here comes a tariff. Get our allies to sign on and you can encourage a foreign country to meet SOME safety or environmental standards. Oh, and if you tariff my exports I will tariff your imports. Not living in the age of the Marshall Plan anymore.

So yes, I understand the theory of free trade but demand some flexibility.


But are you ready to pay for it? Fewer jobs, lower standards of living, higher prices? That's the result if you ban specific imports, provide gov't handouts, enact tariffs.
 
Yeah. Its a pretty conservative thing to do. Tariffa were a high percentage of our historical income.

Plus, if we do go to war with China, do you want to be abke to build F-22's?

Perhaps we could have the Germans build them for us?
 
Yeah. Its a pretty conservative thing to do. Tariffa were a high percentage of our historical income.

Plus, if we do go to war with China, do you want to be abke to build F-22's?

Perhaps we could have the Germans build them for us?

I'll bet Porsche could build one hell of an F-22.
 
Yeah. Its a pretty conservative thing to do. Tariffa were a high percentage of our historical income.


Conservative? I don't think so, it's the unions and their puppets in the democratic party who are fighting free trade and calling for protectionism. Tariffs might've been a big part of our nat'l income once, before the income tax. Isn't any more though, and in today's economy I think tariffs cost you more than you take in. Welcome to the 21st century.

Plus, if we do go to war with China, do you want to be abke to build F-22's?


I think we can build whatever we need to in the event of a major war.

Perhaps we could have the Germans build them for us?


I don't think the German have the defense industry that we do.
 
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...there arent enough hours of the day to teach a lesson on economics in a forum.
Actually, it's easy to explain to anyone who's interested. The problem is that tariff-welfare is no longer economics, it's become a kind of religion.
 
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.


You make some valid points but the macro-economic reality is not quite so simple as that.

Free trade as currently practiced is not a boon to this society.

Contrary to what you have probably been told, even Adam Smith was not an advocate of free trade (like the FT which the USA is currently practicing).

Why should I, or anyone else, care what Adam Smith advocated? The numbers clearly show that free trade is good for an economy. The more trade we engage in the less likely we are to go to war.
 
Hmmmm. In general I agree. In specific cases I support out right bans on imports.

First, we absolutely need some manufacturing base for military reasons. Yup, we need enough steel plants, wafer plants, bomb plants, whatever to make tanks and planes in the event push comes to shove. I support our militaty and distrust the Chinese enough I am not giving that up.

How is the military going to keep them privately owned plants running when other placez can do it cheaper? Givernment hand outs or tariffs.

Next I support tariffs as a political tool. If I dont like the environmental or human rights record of your country enough, here comes a tariff. Get our allies to sign on and you can encourage a foreign country to meet SOME safety or environmental standards. Oh, and if you tariff my exports I will tariff your imports. Not living in the age of the Marshall Plan anymore.

So yes, I understand the theory of free trade but demand some flexibility.

If you do not like the environmental or human rights record of a country organize a boycott. If enough people agree with you it will change. Why should the government exist merely to keep you from having to work for what you believe in?
 
We must learn to live with less.
We must reduce demand...
Those words are often spoken by leftists living in a Marxist fantasyland, the idea being that the WE can control the market's supply and demand and can decide how much all individuals will be allowed to live on. Switching over to the Planet Earth finds a bloated state that collapses after years of shooting at its fleeing population.
 
I see quite a few posts condemning free trade on the belief that it costs us jobs. If a foreign country can produce a product, service, or commodity cheaper than we can, or one that is higher quality, then either we make changes or we can't compete. If we can't compete then those jobs are lost or reduced in number, and the affected employees will then have to find work elsewhere. But it doesn't really matter if the cheaper product, service, or commodity comes from the other side of the world or the other side of the street, people are going to buy what they want or need based on the lower price.

The problem begins when the industry that is being undercut by the foreigners goes to DC and gets some form of protectionism. When that happens, you the consumer cannot get the lower priced item, you end up paying more. Which means you got less to spend on other stuff. Which means your standard of living just went down. AND, since you can't buy as much other stuff, jobs will be lost for those things cuz demand drops for them. So, we saved some jobs via the protectionisn, but lost others in other industries.

AND - what do you think those foreign countries are going to do when the US applies some form of protectionism on their stuff? They're going to reciprocate, right? So now prices go up not just on the first thing but on other things. Downward spiral, suggest reading about the Smoot-Hawley bill that was passed back in the early 1930s. Didn't cause the depression, but it did add to the problem IMHO. Do we need to be creating more enemies around the world ?

Back in the 1980s, the steel industry was facing tough competition from foreign steel makers. So they went to Washington and cried for some form of protectionism and got it. Jobs were lost anyway, for whatever reasons, but the problem was with the many other companies who used steel to make other things. A lot more jobs were lost as a result of the protectionist policy towards steel than were saved. Most people focus only on the jobs lost by a specific company that moves ops to Mexico, or when a foreign company offers something cheaper than we can. But those jobs are going down the tubes anyway if we can't compete, unless you want to subsidize them for thousands of dollars more than they're worth.


You make some valid points but the macro-economic reality is not quite so simple as that.

Free trade as currently practiced is not a boon to this society.

Contrary to what you have probably been told, even Adam Smith was not an advocate of free trade (like the FT which the USA is currently practicing).

Why should I, or anyone else, care what Adam Smith advocated?


I mention Adam Smith, QW, ONLY because the FREE TRADE advocates often opine that Adam Smith was an advocate of unbridled unthining FREE TRADE like we're practicing right now.

He wasn't.



The numbers clearly show that free trade is good for an economy
.

What numbers would those be exactly? Certainly NOT the balance of trade numbers.




The more trade we engage in the less likely we are to go to war.

There's an interesting theory.

EXcept historically that really isn't true.

Pre WWI Europe was heavily into international trade. Germany was a trade partner big time with both France and England.

They still went to war with each other.

Good theory, though, because it seems plausible.

But unhappily it's not supported by the facts.
 
...The numbers clearly show that free trade is good for an economy...
What numbers would those be exactly? Certainly NOT the balance of trade numbers...
No, that phoney 'trade-balance' nonsense is good for union thugs and bad for the rest of us. We care more about employment and income numbers because we want jobs to make money to feed our families --not pay for Hoffa's booze tab. Sure, if anyone wants we can always go over employment/income data again now, but most here either already know tariffs are stupid or they're unwilling to face reality.
 

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