Free thought of the day

[guno]

A free thought to start your day

The facts on which the true believer bases his conclusions must not be derived from his experience or observation but from holy writ . . . To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason.
. . .
Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: It must be 'contrary to nature, to common sense and to pleasure.'"

—-Eric Hoffer, The True Believer, 1951

- See more at: Freethought of the Day

 

[Compost]

The trouble with guys like Eric is they think they are so smart they don't have to consider all the elements that apply. It's easy to dismiss faith when you ignore it. Wonder if Eric found that out now that he's post humous.

 

[DGS49]

Any belief system MUST accommodate observable reality. If it can't, it is reduced to a parody of religion.

For example, LDS cannot accommodate the fact that there is no genetic indication whatsoever in native American peoples that supports Joseph Smith's narrative of two large migrations from the Middle East. Thus, it is DISPROVEN, and Smith is a fraud.

Christian theologians have put forth a number of explanations to accommodate the geological, biological, and anthropological findings of the past 150 years. They have no choice; otherwise their belief systems are reduced to absurdity.

 

[Shrimpbox]

What gets me about people like Guno is that all the deep truths they profess to possess are indictments of their candidates. Just as in a religious sense, you have to suspend disbelief, common sense, and morality to support his presidential candidate. Since trump is not an ideological conservative, he can be judged on reality, warts and all. Hilary and her entourage, the same people that have surrounded her for 30 years, move through the countryside like the pope heading for a shrine. Criticism is apostasy.

While this is in religion, let's not kid ourselves. Guno insinuates that his thought for the day is an apt description for his rwnjs.

 

[sizzler]

A free thought to start your day

The facts on which the true believer bases his conclusions must not be derived from his experience or observation but from holy writ . . . To rely on the evidence of the senses and of reason is heresy and treason.
. . .
Thus the effectiveness of a doctrine should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity or the validity of the truths it embodies, but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from his self and the world as it is. What Pascal said of an effective religion is true of any effective doctrine: It must be 'contrary to nature, to common sense and to pleasure.'"

—-Eric Hoffer, The True Believer, 1951

- See more at: Freethought of the Day

Whatever your free thought is, it musn't be true. Because the truth is something that most people will not accept even if it is free.

 

[Blackrook]

guno, you are wrong about everything. I was raised a Catholic, but I did not truly believe like the way I believe now until I had conducted my own independent investigation and determined for myself that the claims of the Catholic Church to be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ is true, and that it's doctrines are true and preserved from error by the Holy Spirit.

 

[hobelim]

guno, you are wrong about everything. I was raised a Catholic, but I did not truly believe like the way I believe now until I had conducted my own independent investigation and determined for myself that the claims of the Catholic Church to be the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ is true, and that it's doctrines are true and preserved from error by the Holy Spirit.

What doctrines?

That one God is really three, one part of which became human by diddling a virgin so he could father himself to become fully human without a human father who said things no one understood, performed supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality, turned himself into a lifeless matzo that must be worshiped and eaten by the faithful for spiritual life?

Any so called spirit that has taken up residence in your mind to convince you that these assertions that insult the intelligence and contradict both logic and reality are the truth is a spirit of perversity that is not holy and is not of God.

 

[Meriweather]

What doctrines?

That one God is really three, one part of which became human by diddling a virgin so he could father himself to become fully human without a human father who said things no one understood, performed supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality, turned himself into a lifeless matzo that must be worshiped and eaten by the faithful for spiritual life?

Any so called spirit that has taken up residence in your mind to convince you that these assertions that insult the intelligence and contradict both logic and reality are the truth is a spirit of perversity that is not holy and is not of God.

Being crass is a good technique to shut down conversation, broadcasts a closed mind, one bent on sneering. So let's set that aside and simply converse.

Christians believe that Jesus was conceived by a power that did not require anyone--spirit or otherwise--to have sex with a woman. No "diddling." For those who believe this is impossible, no problem, because Christianity has further beliefs that will not be grasped or welcomed. A man rose from the dead, and he ascended into heaven. Before that, he brought a few others back to life, healed those blind from birth and those who could not walk.

Jesus taught that God's ways are very different from ours. For example, whereas the human spirit is limited to a physical body and can go nowhere the body does not, so great is God's power, His spirit can be sent out. God's word is so potent, we are told, that it too has life and is animate--so much so that all things came to be through His word. While we humans cannot imagine this type of existence where our spirits can go forth, where our very words can form physical universes and even life, that is exactly who God is. One being with an awesome existence and power--one so very difficult for humans to grasp, that it is easier (and more within our capabilities) for us to picture God as an older man with a beard in possession of a magician's wand (not words) that creates something from nothing.

You ask which doctrines. That was summed up by Peter two thousand years ago. Christ has the words of eternal life. While miracles, healings, and walking on water are amazing things to contemplate, those were all over and done with long ago. It is Christ's words that are eternal, his teachings (The Beatitudes being one very good example) that keep on living, and keep on providing us with life in Christ's Kingdom.

When we see the great miracles Christ's words work in our own lives, a virgin birth, rising from the dead, walking on water, water into wine, etc. seems like mere child's play by comparison.

 

[hobelim]

What doctrines?

That one God is really three, one part of which became human by diddling a virgin so he could father himself to become fully human without a human father who said things no one understood, performed supernatural demonstrations of divine power over reality, turned himself into a lifeless matzo that must be worshiped and eaten by the faithful for spiritual life?

Any so called spirit that has taken up residence in your mind to convince you that these assertions that insult the intelligence and contradict both logic and reality are the truth is a spirit of perversity that is not holy and is not of God.

Being crass is a good technique to shut down conversation, broadcasts a closed mind, one bent on sneering. So let's set that aside and simply converse.

Christians believe that Jesus was conceived by a power that did not require anyone--spirit or otherwise--to have sex with a woman. No "diddling." For those who believe this is impossible, no problem, because Christianity has further beliefs that will not be grasped or welcomed. A man rose from the dead, and he ascended into heaven. Before that, he brought a few others back to life, healed those blind from birth and those who could not walk.

Jesus taught that God's ways are very different from ours. For example, whereas the human spirit is limited to a physical body and can go nowhere the body does not, so great is God's power, His spirit can be sent out. God's word is so potent, we are told, that it too has life and is animate--so much so that all things came to be through His word. While we humans cannot imagine this type of existence where our spirits can go forth, where our very words can form physical universes and even life, that is exactly who God is. One being with an awesome existence and power--one so very difficult for humans to grasp, that it is easier (and more within our capabilities) for us to picture God as an older man with a beard in possession of a magician's wand (not words) that creates something from nothing.

You ask which doctrines. That was summed up by Peter two thousand years ago. Christ has the words of eternal life. While miracles, healings, and walking on water are amazing things to contemplate, those were all over and done with long ago. It is Christ's words that are eternal, his teachings (The Beatitudes being one very good example) that keep on living, and keep on providing us with life in Christ's Kingdom.

When we see the great miracles Christ's words work in our own lives, a virgin birth, rising from the dead, walking on water, water into wine, etc. seems like mere child's play by comparison.

Crass? lol... That's what you believe. I'm not trying to shut down conversation. Blackrock claims to arrived at the conclusion that the doctrines of the church are true based research and intelligent rational thought..

Show me the reasoning.

No sex? How is any of it rational? Do you realize that a human being cannot be born without the other 23 chromosomes required from a human father for conception to occur? Where is your honesty? Is it too hard to accept that the story is literally false but may allude to some deeper truth?

Maybe Jesus became the "son of God" ( a relational metaphor) without the sexual desire of a human father the day he emerged from the Jordan after being baptized by John as a token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.. The heavens opened up to him, "In this day I have begotten thee," , etc., a spiritual awakening, what Jesus meant by saying that you must be born again.

Maybe Mary was parthenos, even after having sex, parthenos not necessarily being about sex?


Maybe God isn't edible?


Lets chat......



If you believe that Christ has the words of eternal life then why do you not do what he said?

Why do you worship and eat a matzo for eternal life if his words are words of eternal life?

 

[Meriweather]

Why do you worship and eat a matzo for eternal life if his words are words of eternal life?

Until you can understand worship of God, not a matzo, there will be no understanding, and therefore conversing is not possible. I understand that for you it is all metaphor and intellect, and I am okay with that for you. However, when your intellect misinforms you of how/what others worship and you accept what your intellect tells you as hard fact with no possibility of it being in error, it leaves little room for seeing anything from someone else's perspective.

 

[hobelim]

Why do you worship and eat a matzo for eternal life if his words are words of eternal life?

Until you can understand worship of God, not a matzo, there will be no understanding, and therefore conversing is not possible. I understand that for you it is all metaphor and intellect, and I am okay with that for you. However, when your intellect misinforms you of how/what others worship and you accept what your intellect tells you as hard fact with no possibility of it being in error, it leaves little room for seeing anything from someone else's perspective.

It is not possible that the living God, the spirit of the living God or anything of the incorporeal world could be transubstantiated into something corporeal that is made by human hands, has no life and doesn't even qualify as a cheep snack food.

I'm not misinformed. Its about what is right and wrong, true and false and what leads to life or death. You say you worship God but anyone can peek inside of any church on any given Sunday and see with their own eyes, grown men and women, young and old, rich and poor all on their knees in an orgy of rebellion against he who truly is God on their knees in deranged adoration before a lifeless object made by human hands.


If you don't care to include intellegence in our conversation, then maybe you are right that there is no point in any further discussion. Without including intelligence or comprehending metaphors, as anyone with eyes that see can see, you have your reward already.


Forgive me if I was mistaken to assume by your professed dedication that you wouldn't mind being proven wrong as long as Jesus was proven right.

 

[Meriweather]

It is not possible that the living God, the spirit of the living God or anything of the incorporeal world could be transubstantiated into something corporeal that is made by human hands, has no life and doesn't even qualify as a cheep snack food.

I'm not misinformed. Its about what is right and wrong, true and false and what leads to life or death. You say you worship God but anyone can peek inside of any church on any given Sunday and see with their own eyes, grown men and women, young and old, rich and poor all on their knees in an orgy of rebellion against he who truly is God on their knees in deranged adoration before a lifeless object made by human hands.


If you don't care to include intellegence in our conversation, then maybe you are right that there is no point in any further discussion. Without including intelligence or comprehending metaphors, as anyone with eyes that see can see, you have your reward already.


Forgive me if I was mistaken to assume by your professed dedication that you wouldn't mind being proven wrong as long as Jesus was proven right.

It is very simple. Sacraments are the visible sign of the invisible reality. Until one fully comprehends that worship only involves the invisible reality, what emerges is disbelief and/or ridicule. In other words, it is my assessment that you believe no visible signs are necessary, and those who do find value in the visible signs Christ bestowed deserve your ridicule and denigration.

In fact, you totally overlook the obvious fact that those who use visible signs are in deep, focused worship of the invisible reality. You know, the kind of worship you say you favor yourself. My sincere congratulations that you have no need of any visible sign to help your physical body and its senses focus. I'm simply asking for a little kindness and understanding to us lesser mortals who do--and which Christ, in his love, kindness and understanding, provided.

 

[hobelim]

It is not possible that the living God, the spirit of the living God or anything of the incorporeal world could be transubstantiated into something corporeal that is made by human hands, has no life and doesn't even qualify as a cheep snack food.

I'm not misinformed. Its about what is right and wrong, true and false and what leads to life or death. You say you worship God but anyone can peek inside of any church on any given Sunday and see with their own eyes, grown men and women, young and old, rich and poor all on their knees in an orgy of rebellion against he who truly is God on their knees in deranged adoration before a lifeless object made by human hands.


If you don't care to include intellegence in our conversation, then maybe you are right that there is no point in any further discussion. Without including intelligence or comprehending metaphors, as anyone with eyes that see can see, you have your reward already.


Forgive me if I was mistaken to assume by your professed dedication that you wouldn't mind being proven wrong as long as Jesus was proven right.

It is very simple. Sacraments are the visible sign of the invisible reality. Until one fully comprehends that worship only involves the invisible reality, what emerges is disbelief and/or ridicule. In other words, it is my assessment that you believe no visible signs are necessary, and those who do find value in the visible signs Christ bestowed deserve your ridicule and denigration.

In fact, you totally overlook the obvious fact that those who use visible signs are in deep, focused worship of the invisible reality. You know, the kind of worship you say you favor yourself. My sincere congratulations that you have no need of any visible sign to help your physical body and its senses focus. I'm simply asking for a little kindness and understanding to us lesser mortals who do--and which Christ, in his love, kindness and understanding, provided.

You are right, it's very simple.

What you call the visible signs, getting on your knees before a lifeless matzo made by human hands, is behavior expressly forbidden by God under penalty of death.

There is no way around this. Whats worse is that you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people by attributing such an iniquitous ritual to him.

You claim that such devotion is the way to eternal life. I am telling you that it is the way to certain destruction and that any visible representation of the living God always results in a false image.

You claim to be worshiping the invisible God, I am telling you that you are defying the invisible God by getting down on your knees before and seeking spiritual life from that which is made by human hands, has no life, and is not God

We both can't be right.


Care to see what the bible says? ....

 

[Meriweather]

You are right, it's very simple.

What you call the visible signs, getting on your knees before a lifeless matzo made by human hands, is behavior expressly forbidden by God under penalty of death.

There is no way around this. Whats worse is that you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people by attributing such an iniquitous ritual to him.

You claim that such devotion is the way to eternal life. I am telling you that it is the way to certain destruction and that any visible representation of the living God always results in a false image.

You claim to be worshiping the invisible God, I am telling you that you are defying the invisible God by getting down on your knees before and seeking spiritual life from that which is made by human hands, has no life, and is not God

We both can't be right.


Care to see what the bible says? ....

Thank you, I know what the Bible says from Baptism to the Last Supper to Healing. "Do this in memory of me." Baptism, healing, counseling also call for water, hands on touch, and hearing and speaking.

 

[hobelim]

You are right, it's very simple.

What you call the visible signs, getting on your knees before a lifeless matzo made by human hands, is behavior expressly forbidden by God under penalty of death.

There is no way around this. Whats worse is that you bring the name of Jesus into disrepute among intelligent people by attributing such an iniquitous ritual to him.

You claim that such devotion is the way to eternal life. I am telling you that it is the way to certain destruction and that any visible representation of the living God always results in a false image.

You claim to be worshiping the invisible God, I am telling you that you are defying the invisible God by getting down on your knees before and seeking spiritual life from that which is made by human hands, has no life, and is not God

We both can't be right.


Care to see what the bible says? ....

Thank you, I know what the Bible says from Baptism to the Last Supper to Healing. "Do this in memory of me." Baptism, healing, counseling also call for water, hands on touch, and hearing and speaking.

Do what in memory of him? Hand out bread, teach people that something made by human hands gives life and is the visible manifestation of the invisible God, dunking people in water and touching them with your hands??? Jesus never taught any such thing.


How can you do what you do at mass in memory of the very Jesus who taught that his words give life not bread unless it is a deliberate demonstration of pure hatred for God and a desecration of those very words that Jesus spoke from God, the only source of life?


Not for nothing but if even one tenth of what is written in the Bible is true, you are screwed. Your inability to perceive the suicidal evil of worshiping a material object that can neither see, hear, speak, or walk, as if it was a god that could give eternal life to those who eat it indicates that you have your reward already.



Have you never noticed that according to the gospel of John the only mention of eating his flesh was before the last supper and during the last supper the only person given bread by Jesus was Judas as a way for Jesus to identify his betrayer to the others?....

"As soon as Judas received the bread, Satan entered him."


I bet Judas thought he was having a very profound mystical religious experience too.

I guess he was, just not a very good one....