Free speech vs. taxation without representation

[Cecilie1200]

Anyone honest must acknowledge the behavior of many of those 'protesting' health care reform is both irrational and uncivil; their behavior is tantamount to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater.
The marches protesting Bush&Co's invasion and occupation of Iraq were generally civil, only the most extreme elements acted foolishly, and they were few in number (and in many cases arrested; and the arrests were viewed as appropriate and necessary by the vast majority who marched silently). I would add that the leaders at the marches I attended encouraged peaceful protest; this is not the case (with the recent exception of John McCain) of Republican leadership today. In fact the defacto leader of the Republican Party, Rush Limbaugh, fans the flames of insurrection.

Anyone honest must acknowledge that protesters on the left have been doing much, much worse than going to a town hall meeting and getting shirty with their own Congressional representative, and those who are currently "shocked and horrified" never said boo about it.

Last time I checked, freedom of speech wasn't limited to carrying signs outside the building. It really does extend to demanding answers from your government officials, and even telling them off when they try to lie their way out of it.

Call me when conservative protesters disrupt the State of the Union address or unplug the speaker's microphone or steal newspapers and burn them or assault speakers who are saying something they don't like. Until then, spare me your faux "outrage".

 

[nodoginnafight]

assault speakers who are saying something they don't like

You mean speakers like Martin Luther King? Bobby Kennedy? John Kennedy? George Wallace? Ronald Regean?

If you are trying to argue that the radical right or the radical left is any more law-abiding than the other, you are dipping your bucket in a dry well.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And in further news:

Rep. Kathy Castor (D-Fla.) set up a last-minute town hall meeting in the Tampa Bay area last night in conjunction with the SEIU. Democrats again underestimated the broad scope of opposition to ObamaCare. As word of the covert town hall began to spread midday on Twitter, a HUMAN EVENTS sister site, RedState.com, put out a notice of the town hall on its front page calendar, garnering a Red State shout out from Rush Limbaugh himself.

Castor and the SEIU had expected to stage the 250-seat event with support for the cameras, but police estimate over 1,500 people showed up for the event -- the overwhelming majority opposing Obamacare. A testy Castor gave a short speech and left in frustration when booing drowned out the manufactured applause. Castor slipped in and out a back door, not mingling with constituents, when her faux-support-pep-rally-photo-op scheme was blown out of the water.

 

[Wry Catcher]

"Anyone honest must acknowledge that protesters on the left have been doing much, much worse than going to a town hall meeting and getting shirty with their own Congressional representative, and those who are currently "shocked and horrified" never said boo about it."

Please provide evidence of the truth of this assertion.

 

[Ravi]

And in further news:

Rep. Kathy Castor (D-Fla.) set up a last-minute town hall meeting in the Tampa Bay area last night in conjunction with the SEIU. Democrats again underestimated the broad scope of opposition to ObamaCare. As word of the covert town hall began to spread midday on Twitter, a HUMAN EVENTS sister site, RedState.com, put out a notice of the town hall on its front page calendar, garnering a Red State shout out from Rush Limbaugh himself.

Castor and the SEIU had expected to stage the 250-seat event with support for the cameras, but police estimate over 1,500 people showed up for the event -- the overwhelming majority opposing Obamacare. A testy Castor gave a short speech and left in frustration when booing drowned out the manufactured applause. Castor slipped in and out a back door, not mingling with constituents, when her faux-support-pep-rally-photo-op scheme was blown out of the water.

Covert? All you need do is check FAUXNews...all the Dem representative's town halls are listed there.

 

[WillowTree]

there ain't no low that's too low for a democrat to go.. Party of Hate Party of Shame.. sucks to be you!

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Anyone honest must acknowledge that protesters on the left have been doing much, much worse than going to a town hall meeting and getting shirty with their own Congressional representative, and those who are currently "shocked and horrified" never said boo about it."

Please provide evidence of the truth of this assertion.

Which assertion would you like proof of? That leftists protesters do a lot worse than get shirty with their own Congressmembers at townhall meetings? Or that honest people have to acknowledge that fact and that the "outrage" is strangely one-sided?

 

[Vast LWC]

That leftists protesters do a lot worse than get shirty with their own Congressmembers at townhall meetings?

I'd like some proof of this one. thanks.

 

[Vast LWC]

They are citizens of the US so what does it matter if they're in their district or not ? They're in their country!

Hmm, I missed this one before...

Of course it matters whether they're members of the district or not.

The TownHall was meant to be a forum where members of the Congressperson's district could communicate with their Congressperson.

Said Congressperson does not represent people from other districts, now do they?

 

[Cecilie1200]

That leftists protesters do a lot worse than get shirty with their own Congressmembers at townhall meetings?

I'd like some proof of this one. thanks.

Glad you asked.

Ajai Prasad Raj protested an Ann Coulter lecture with a sexually obscene rant and simulated masturbation.

Students at Apple Valley High School, Minnesota, who were Kerry supporters beat a Bush-supporting student with a baseball bat.

Bruce C. Charles was at a debate featuring Howard Dean and Richarl Perle (former Pentagon adviser) and took off his shoe and threw it at Perle.

David Philip McCally in Gainesville, Florida, ran into a GOP office, assaulted a cardboard cutout of Presient Bush, and punched a local Republican chairman.

Democrat staffers in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, slashed the tires of 20 Republican get-out-the-vote vans on Election Day.

Barry Steltzer of Sarasota, Florida, and Nathan Winkler of Tampa, Florida, both tried to run someone over with their cars for being Bush supporters. Winkler's intended victim was a mother with a baby in a carriage which had a Bush-Cheney sticker on it.

On Bainbridge Island, Washington, Jason Gilson, a Marine injured in the line of duty in Iraq participated in a Chamber of Commerce-sponsored parade. The crowd shouted, "Baby killer! Murderer!" at him, booed, and made obscene gestures.

Specialist Chad Drake was killed in Iraq. His family attended a candlelight vigil in Dallas to honor Americans killed in Iraq. Drake's mother was harassed and yelled at, booed and hissed, and told her son died for nothing. Ah, those peaceful war protesters.

The St. Petersburg Democratic Club took out an advertisement in a local newspaper in 2004 urging the assassination of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

A crowd of 500 students attacked Army Sergeant 1st Class Jeff Due at Seattle Central Community College as they were manning a recruitment table on campus. The students were protesting Bush's inauguration that day. They tore the recruiters' handouts apart, threw water bottles and newpapers at them, and shouted profanities. Cops and college security had to escort the recruiters from the campus.

Anti-military protesters in East Orange, New Jersey, shattered the windows of an Army recruitment center and a Navy office.

And let us not forget Democrat protesters rioting at the 2008 Republican National Convention, requiring police in riot gear to disperse them.

How many official events, like Bush's second Inauguration, for example, have been disrupted by Code Pink?

I have lots more like this. Just ask.

 

[Vast LWC]

Shall we address this point by point?

Let's.

And let us not forget Democrat protesters rioting at the 2008 Republican National Convention, requiring police in riot gear to disperse them.

You mean the peacful protestors who were not rioting at all, but were assaulted with tear gas and rubber bullets because they didn't want to disperse, by Minnesota police, who were already pre-emptively wearing riot gear?

Nice try. But even if you insinuate that they were "rioting", which they clearly were not, they still were not trying to force their way into the RNC to mob the convention.

Ajai Prasad Raj protested an Ann Coulter lecture with a sexually obscene rant and simulated masturbation.

Students at Apple Valley High School, Minnesota, who were Kerry supporters beat a Bush-supporting student with a baseball bat.

Bruce C. Charles was at a debate featuring Howard Dean and Richarl Perle (former Pentagon adviser) and took off his shoe and threw it at Perle.

David Philip McCally in Gainesville, Florida, ran into a GOP office, assaulted a cardboard cutout of Presient Bush, and punched a local Republican chairman.

Barry Steltzer of Sarasota, Florida, and Nathan Winkler of Tampa, Florida, both tried to run someone over with their cars for being Bush supporters. Winkler's intended victim was a mother with a baby in a carriage which had a Bush-Cheney sticker on it.

On Bainbridge Island, Washington, Jason Gilson, a Marine injured in the line of duty in Iraq participated in a Chamber of Commerce-sponsored parade. The crowd shouted, "Baby killer! Murderer!" at him, booed, and made obscene gestures.

All examples of crazy lone people, just like all the crazy lone people on the right, like Tim McVeigh, or that guy who shot that abortion doctor recently. None of these were organized efforts to block the process of democracy.

Specialist Chad Drake was killed in Iraq. His family attended a candlelight vigil in Dallas to honor Americans killed in Iraq. Drake's mother was harassed and yelled at, booed and hissed, and told her son died for nothing. Ah, those peaceful war protesters.

And this was complete BS. Drake's family was invited to a candlelight vigil for Iraq war dead, not realizing it was an anti-war protest.

Drake's mother and the event organizer got into an argument when the mother discovered the nature of the event. There was absolutely no "booing and hissing".

Here's the actual story from the Dallas Observer at the time:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2004-09-16/news/crash-of-symbols/full

The St. Petersburg Democratic Club took out an advertisement in a local newspaper in 2004 urging the assassination of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

And Pat Robertson urged his viewers to plant a bomb underneath the State Department on National Television when he disagreed with Colin Powell.

None of these incidents were organized mobs trying to prevent the free flow of Democracy, just like none of the many. many incidents involving conservative demonstrators were.

This is another beast entirely. It's more like when conservative mobs invaded the offices of voting officials in Florida after the 2000 elections and stopped the recount from happening.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Shall we address this point by point?

Let's.

And let us not forget Democrat protesters rioting at the 2008 Republican National Convention, requiring police in riot gear to disperse them.

You mean the peacful protestors who were not rioting at all, but were assaulted with tear gas and rubber bullets because they didn't want to disperse, by Minnesota police, who were already pre-emptively wearing riot gear?

Yes, I know the MSM tried desperately to present them as "peaceful" and martyred by the evil cops. Unlike you, I also know it was a flat-out lie.

Nice try. But even if you insinuate that they were "rioting", which they clearly were not, they still were not trying to force their way into the RNC to mob the convention.

Oh, nice try at moving the goalposts, but no frigging cigar. The criteria was NOT "forcing their way in and mobbing the convention". The criteria was "protesters behaving badly". And it's noticeable that the protests of the Democrat National Convention that year didn't require any arrests or police dispersal. And while I'm sure you automatically assume all cops are evil, jackbooted fascist thugs, we're definitely going to have to disagree on that.

Ajai Prasad Raj protested an Ann Coulter lecture with a sexually obscene rant and simulated masturbation.

Students at Apple Valley High School, Minnesota, who were Kerry supporters beat a Bush-supporting student with a baseball bat.

Bruce C. Charles was at a debate featuring Howard Dean and Richarl Perle (former Pentagon adviser) and took off his shoe and threw it at Perle.

David Philip McCally in Gainesville, Florida, ran into a GOP office, assaulted a cardboard cutout of Presient Bush, and punched a local Republican chairman.

Barry Steltzer of Sarasota, Florida, and Nathan Winkler of Tampa, Florida, both tried to run someone over with their cars for being Bush supporters. Winkler's intended victim was a mother with a baby in a carriage which had a Bush-Cheney sticker on it.

On Bainbridge Island, Washington, Jason Gilson, a Marine injured in the line of duty in Iraq participated in a Chamber of Commerce-sponsored parade. The crowd shouted, "Baby killer! Murderer!" at him, booed, and made obscene gestures.

All examples of crazy lone people, just like all the crazy lone people on the right, like Tim McVeigh, or that guy who shot that abortion doctor recently. None of these were organized efforts to block the process of democracy.

Again, good try at moving the goalposts and changing the subject, but again, DENIED!

The criteria was "protesters behaving badly", and like it or not, these were protesters and they were yours. In addition, the very topic at hand is "faux liberal outrage at behavior they ignore in their own people", and the right does not ignore and tacitly condone shooting of abortion doctors. Unlike you hypocrites, WE are the first people out of the box condemning such behavior.

And finally, Tim McVeigh was not a "political protester". He was a terrorist. If you want to start comparing murdering, insane pieces of shit on either side, we can play that game, too, but I can promise your side won't come off any better there than it is in the comparison of misbehaving protesters. Also, Tim McVeigh didn't identify as a conservative, but a Libertarian (insofar as such concerns even apply to crazy, evil people). So trying to stick us with him doesn't fly, anyway.

Specialist Chad Drake was killed in Iraq. His family attended a candlelight vigil in Dallas to honor Americans killed in Iraq. Drake's mother was harassed and yelled at, booed and hissed, and told her son died for nothing. Ah, those peaceful war protesters.

And this was complete BS. Drake's family was invited to a candlelight vigil for Iraq war dead, not realizing it was an anti-war protest.

Drake's mother and the event organizer got into an argument when the mother discovered the nature of the event. There was absolutely no "booing and hissing".

Here's the actual story from the Dallas Observer at the time:

Dallas News - Crash of Symbols -

And once again, you swing and miss. Your own story says only that "None of those interviewed by the Observer reported hearing that." Except, obviously, the family, who were the source of the original accusation of booing and hissing. So at best, you've got a "their word against ours" scenario on that one. Meanwhile, you somehow seem to think that the behavior described in your link rises above the level of "bad behavior for protesters". Inviting the family under false pretenses? Misrepresenting an anti-war protest as a "memorial"? Lying to the family once they got there and saw what was really happening? Shouting at the poor mother? THIS is your idea of "see, there was no bad behavior"? You clearly don't get invited out in public very often.

The St. Petersburg Democratic Club took out an advertisement in a local newspaper in 2004 urging the assassination of then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

And Pat Robertson urged his viewers to plant a bomb underneath the State Department on National Television when he disagreed with Colin Powell.

No, he didn't. He was doing an interview with Joel Mowbray, and while talking about Mowbray's book criticizing the way the State Department - the whole department, not just Colin Powell - does its job, Robertson said after reading it that he thought, "If I could just get a nuclear device inside Foggy Bottom, I think that's the answer." Admittedly, this was a highly inappropriate comment, particularly in a world where we're at war with terrorism. But it was clearly intended as an expression of disdain for the State Deparment, not an exhortation for someone to assassinate Colin Powell. The Democratic Club, on the other hand, explicitly DID urge the assassination of Donald Rumsfeld.

And more relevant to the topic, Robertson was roundly excoriated by everyone on the right, while the left remained conspicuously silent about the ad. So once again, your own posts reveals you and your cohorts as hypocrites.

None of these incidents were organized mobs trying to prevent the free flow of Democracy, just like none of the many. many incidents involving conservative demonstrators were.

Not only do you not get to move the goalposts, you also don't get to impose your personal viewpoint as reality. The criteria is "protesters behaving badly", and simply because YOU choose to see the townhall protests as "attempts to prevent Democracy" doesn't make it true. In addition, your careless dismissal of physical attacks as "they weren't attempting to prevent the free flow of democracy" is even more completely bullshit than most of your posts are. You think throwing things at speakers, shouting obscenities at them and simulating masturbation is aimed at INCREASING the "free flow of democracy"? You think the entire point THERE wasn't to stop them from speaking? How about running people over with cars? Is THAT "free-flowing democracy"? Think those women would have said much afterward if they'd been hit?

This is another beast entirely. It's more like when conservative mobs invaded the offices of voting officials in Florida after the 2000 elections and stopped the recount from happening.

You mean the illegal recounts that were circumventing the democratically-passed laws of the state of Florida AND the United States?

This is the same old beast, and its name is "leftist hypocrisy". Thanks for walking it around and giving everyone a good look at it.

 

[Darkwind]

And in further news:

Rep. Kathy Castor (D-Fla.) set up a last-minute town hall meeting in the Tampa Bay area last night in conjunction with the SEIU. Democrats again underestimated the broad scope of opposition to ObamaCare. As word of the covert town hall began to spread midday on Twitter, a HUMAN EVENTS sister site, RedState.com, put out a notice of the town hall on its front page calendar, garnering a Red State shout out from Rush Limbaugh himself.

Castor and the SEIU had expected to stage the 250-seat event with support for the cameras, but police estimate over 1,500 people showed up for the event -- the overwhelming majority opposing Obamacare. A testy Castor gave a short speech and left in frustration when booing drowned out the manufactured applause. Castor slipped in and out a back door, not mingling with constituents, when her faux-support-pep-rally-photo-op scheme was blown out of the water.

The people in her district need to make a political ad about that and save it for when she is up for reelection.

The same for each and every politician who runs out on those who elected them.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Unlike you, I also know it was a flat-out lie.

Too funny - when the evidence contradicts your claim - just say the evidence is lying.......

did this work on the middle school debate team?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Unlike you, I also know it was a flat-out lie.

Too funny - when the evidence contradicts your claim - just say the evidence is lying.......

did this work on the middle school debate team?

When was the last time picking one sentence out of a huge block of information and pretending that was the only thing said worked? Elementary school?

If you want to join in the conversation, say something real instead of sniping from the sidelines to suck up to VLWC. If I want to hear THAT level of input from you, I'll wave a Snausage over your nose.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Yea they're just soo "Un-American." These "Town Hall Meetings" are just more staged B.S. coming from an administration which routinely stages Press Conferences. I say God Bless these AMERICAN PATRIOTS who are brave enough to stand up to such staged B.S. It is Pelosi and her inept Socialist brethren who are Un-American.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

This is probably a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't think of the proper words to describe what is going on with the disruptive tea party brigade.

I've been reading that they are disrupting town hall meetings about health care all across the country. While I certainly think they have a right to be assholes, I'm not convinced they have a right to prevent the people that attend these meetings from interacting with their representatives. They are disrupting the free flow of information and IMO are lower than scum.

What do you think?

Ya, HOW DARE THEY voice their opinion.

I dont think he is complaining about them voicing an opinion. I think he is talking about them acting all code pink and just shouting people down.

Since I dont like the healthcare plan as proposed I dont mind the behavior too much but some video i've seen is out of hand.

They should stick to protesting outside and asking civil, but tough, questions inside.

Shouting people down isn't getting your message out, its marginalizing it.

Fairness and equity.
Thanks for the rep