Free speech or Bullying?

[chanel]

DETROIT -- Michigan high school teacher Jay McDowell says he didn't like where the discussion was going after a student told his classmates he didn't "accept gays."

So McDowell kicked the boy out of class for a day.

In return, the teacher was suspended for a day without pay for violating the student's free speech rights.

The incident has sparked intense debate in Howell, about 45 miles northwest of Detroit. It's gained far wider attention since the Livingston County Press and Argus released video of a 14-year-old gay student from another city defending McDowell at a Howell school board meeting.

The video has drawn thousands of YouTube views. Howell schools on Monday hosted a community forum to discuss tolerance and diversity issues.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/1...king-student-anti-gay-speech/?test=latestnews

I wasn't aware that CHILDREN had free speech at school. It seems teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Comments?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They do in California, where this occurred.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

California Supreme Court lets stand free-speech ruling for student - SFGate

 

[uscitizen]

In classes children should speak only when the teacher prompts.
In the halls, another matter. But bullying should never be tolerated anywhere on school property.

 

[bodecea]

They do in California, where this occurred.

Detroit, California?

 

[uscitizen]

They do in California, where this occurred.

From the OP:



Michigan high school teacher ....

 

[judyd]

They didn't say in what context the student made the remark. Was it a discussion, a public speaking assignment, a book report? Or did he just shout out that he didn't like gays?

Even in the 60's, when I was in high school and this wasn't a subject that was in your face everyday, if a student had made that remark, I believe any one of my instructors would have called him on it, and turned it into a controlled discussion. In that way, you could have a sensible discussion among all without the name-calling and nonsense that goes on these days.

So, yes, I think the teacher could have handled this differently.

 

[Madeline]

This story has legs in part because the student who spoke out in defense of the teacher, Graeme Taylor aged 14, was so eloquent....

Browser: Video: Gay Ann Arbor teen defends teacher | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

BTW, he refers to Ann Arbor as the "nation's capital for the KKK".

Ann Arbor? The place where U of Michigan is at? That's certainly discouraging.....

 

[judyd]

This story has legs in part because the student who spoke out in defense of the teacher, Graeme Taylor aged 14, was so eloquent....

Browser: Video: Gay Ann Arbor teen defends teacher | freep.com | Detroit Free Press

BTW, he refers to Ann Arbor as the "nation's capital for the KKK".

Ann Arbor? The place where U of Michigan is at? That's certainly discouraging.....

Thanks--that made more sense than the original article which was posted. That boy was certainly self-assured for his age.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The OP illustrates one of the most incorrectly defined word in the vernacular.

Tolerance is NOT acceptance. One can refuse to accept a situation and still tolerate it.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The teacher over re-acted. Sending the kid home b/c he has a different opinion on gays than the liberals do.

So what did the kid learn? That if he wants to go home, disagree with teachers politics.

What did the teacher learn? not a gawd damn thing b/c nothing will happen.

 

[chanel]

Of course we don't know the whole story, but the kid was sent out of class; not home. But based on the OP, the teacher used his professional judgment which happens every day. Did he know there was a gay kid in class that might be offended? Was the kid a known bigot? Stopping the conversation before it got started was "controlling" it. My guess is that the comment had NOTHING to do with the lesson. Every day students make inappropriate comments. Sometimes they are sent out; sometimes they are not. It depends on many factors and punishing teachers for making discilpine decisions that others may not agree with will have a chilling effect. I imagine that teacher may let the students say whatever the hell they want in the future. Free speech and all. Errrr!

 

[Madeline]

Of course we don't know the whole story, but the kid was sent out of class; not home. But based on the OP, the teacher used his professional judgment which happens every day. Did he know there was a gay kid in class that might be offended? Was the kid a known bigot? Stopping the conversation before it got started was "controlling" it. My guess is that the comment had NOTHING to do with the lesson. Every day students make inappropriate comments. Sometimes they are sent out; sometimes they are not. It depends on many factors and punishing teachers for making discilpine decisions that others may not agree with will have a chilling effect. I imagine that teacher may let the students say whatever the hell they want in the future. Free speech and all. Errrr!

The impression I had was that the school has seen a rising tide of bullying by white supremacists and the teacher had finally had enough....and if so, good on him.

I think you asked a very interesting question in the Op: do students have free speech rights at school?

 

[chanel]

Unless the teacher is an incompetent buffoon, which nothing suggests he is, he has the right and the responsibility to "control" the conversation. Docked a day's pay,? Jesus Christ.

And Madeline - I suppose different states have different rules; but I know for a fact that courts in NJ have sided with school discipline codes regarding dress, school newspapers and speeches, and of course profanity and inappropriate. threatening or offensive language while they are in school. At home or on the internet is a different story.


How are teachers supposed to TEACH when 30 kids are exercising their first amendment? Its insane and the ACLU and other loonies need to spend a day in a classroom.

 

[Madeline]

Unless the teacher is an incompetent buffoon, which nothing suggests he is, he has the right and the responsibility to "control" the conversation. Docked a day's pay,? Jesus Christ.

And Madeline - I suppose different states have different rules; but I know for a fact that courts in NJ have sided with school discipline codes regarding dress, school newspapers and speeches, and of course profanity and inappropriate. threatening or offensive language while they are in school. At home or on the internet is a different story.


How are teachers supposed to TEACH when 30 kids are exercising their first amendment? Its insane and the ACLU and other loonies need to spend a day in a classroom.

I will go look-see if there are any SCOTUS decisions on-point when I feel better, chanel. Hopefully tomorrow...I am fighting off a cold. From memory, I think there are a few on such things as searching kids' lockers (SCOTUS sided with schools, I do believe) but none on free speech.

You opinion seems 100% correct to me. School is a regulated environment and the kids are there to learn, which no one can do if one kid is acting the fool.

 

[chanel]

Students have the right to a safe and effective learning environment. No other students "free speech" can trump that. I do not send
kids out for "talking" I send them out for "interfering with the learning of others"

I actually had some crazy mother threaten to sue me for sending her kid out after he told me to go to hell. She said she had consulted a lawyer who said I had violated his free speech. My response was "If I were you I'd find another lawyer and sue that lawyer," Then I hung up on her. Her angel baby is now in jail. Must have had a shitty lawyer. Lol

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Of course we don't know the whole story, but the kid was sent out of class; not home. But based on the OP, the teacher used his professional judgment which happens every day. Did he know there was a gay kid in class that might be offended? Was the kid a known bigot? Stopping the conversation before it got started was "controlling" it. My guess is that the comment had NOTHING to do with the lesson. Every day students make inappropriate comments. Sometimes they are sent out; sometimes they are not. It depends on many factors and punishing teachers for making discilpine decisions that others may not agree with will have a chilling effect. I imagine that teacher may let the students say whatever the hell they want in the future. Free speech and all. Errrr!

How does the possibility that someone might be offended abridge anyone's right to free speech? This was part of his grade or it would not have been being read aloud in the classroom, and that teacher effectively penalized that student the opportunity to improve his grade at the same time he was denied his free speech rights.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They do in California, where this occurred.

Detroit, California?

My mistake.

A similar incident happened in California this week.

 

[chanel]

It just does QW. Respect for others is paramount. HS teachers have little control over how kids think, but they should at least have some control over how they behave. If a student wants to make anti-gay or racist comments, he is free to do so at the dinner table. If he wants to do that in school, he will be disciplined. No one is getting arrested. They are simply being asked to leave.

The day the Supreme Court tells schools they will have no say in what kids say, will be the day I leave teaching. And it will be a windfall for private schools who will still have the freedom to make classrooms where the adults are still in charge. Some parents appreciate that.

Guess what? Kids can be mean.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It just does QW. Respect for others is paramount. HS teachers have little control over how kids think, but they should at least have some control over how they behave. If a student wants to make anti-gay or racist comments, he is free to do so at the dinner table. If he wants to do that in school, he will be disciplined. No one is getting arrested. They are simply being asked to leave.

The day the Supreme Court tells schools they will have no say in what kids say, will be the day I leave teaching. And it will be a windfall for private schools who will still have the freedom to make classrooms where the adults are still in charge. Some parents appreciate that.

Guess what? Kids can be mean.

He has to respect them, but they get to shut him down and force him to accept their opinions.

Why does that make sense to anyone? Respect has to go both way, and has to accept that people will be offended, or it is not respect. You might not like it, but some states recognize that students have freedom of speech. SCOTUS has ruled that schools can restrict a students speech, but they have not required them to do so.

Guess what, adults can be mean too.