France Rejects EU Constitution

[no1tovote4]

Not to mention I assume in September in Germany the pro US Angela
Merkel will become the first female chancellor in Germany.

So for now I ll hate the haters

From your fingers to the voters pens!

Why do you think that would happen? Wouldn't her opponent just use the same tactic as Schroeder?

 

[nosarcasm]

Well in the elections coming up it is not about foreign politics. Its mostly
how to reform the German pension and welfare systems. The continuing
high unemployment and general disappointment with the socialist Schroeder
Green coalition "sellout" of the welfare state will lead to their crushing defeat.

Angela Merkel grew up under the communist oppression in East Germany.
The second in power in the conservative party is Stoiber who last time
around. He is from the very conservative state of Bavaria who is
for state rights anti EU(to a degree).

They ll run Germany soon. (Dont invade Iran till then )

While Schroeder want partly based on populism by opposing the Iraq war
he also won because of a devastating floods where the government
response (and that of the army) gave him good public support and he
could sell himself as a successful manager. The US overall is not
important to the domestic voters.

In the case of a major conflict with Iran they might try it again but
I am not sure if the public is sick of the antiwar stuff. Their are more
urgent problems to most of them then whoever the US attacks.
It is all a matter of timing.

Schroeder called early elections in a desperate move to force
the opposition to decide on a chancellor. He had hoped they d fight
over it but it seems the top contender made an agreement.
So Merkel it is.

The SPD , Schroeders party want to get rid of their coalition partner
the Green party too. If no coalition gets a majority a big coalition would
be another option under the leadership of the conservatives.

Either way I ll put some money down on Schroeders defeat. I hope
it is not wishfull thinking. It clouds your mind.

 

[Annie]

now the quetion is why do you want the EU to fail ?

Worried ?

Actually, it's not so much that I wanted it to fail, as I thought a constitution of that length was pointless. On the other hand, having the French slap Chirac around, after the Germans basically kicked Schroeder in the groin, well sorry. Call it retribution, the gloating I mean. Sick of the papers from both countries regarding Iraq, Bush, and the 'simple' Americans.

 

[nosarcasm]

We are 0 -2 I just would hate to see it 0-3

 

[nosarcasm]

Actually, it's not so much that I wanted it to fail, as I thought a constitution of that length was pointless. On the other hand, having the French slap Chirac around, after the Germans basically kicked Schroeder in the groin, well sorry. Call it retribution, the gloating I mean. Sick of the papers from both countries regarding Iraq, Bush, and the 'simple' Americans.

Well trust I am sick of defending the US from my German friends
and vice versa. Nothing wrong with gloating. The whole enemy not
allies tilit just goes too far sometimes.

 

[Annie]

Well trust I am sick of defending the US from my German friends
and vice versa. Nothing wrong with gloating. The whole enemy not
allies tilit just goes too far sometimes.

I hear you and know you mean all of it. Problem is, there are too few voices on the Europ end to resonate. Anyone who 'knows' Americans, that heard Bush in UN, KNOWS we would try to bring a coalition. The difference is, we DO NOT HAVE TO have it, we would like it, would try to earn it, BUT DO NOT REQUIRE IT! In part, that is what the French and Dutch have given up as a possibility.

Mind you, the EU would NOT guarantee such possibilities of actions, but with the sole exception of the British, there is no other Euro force that could do so, against even as weak an opponent as Iraq. That IS telling.

 

[nosarcasm]

I have the advantages in dealing with those miscreants by claiming
that not them but me speaks for the European Union.

 

[Annie]

I have the advantages in dealing with those miscreants by claiming
that not them but me speaks for the European Union.

OMG YOU want to speak for EU? :shocked:

 

[nosarcasm]

I just pretend. I hate it when people from Europe argue against
the US by pretending they represent the only point of view
of the EU citizens.

 

[Annie]

I just pretend. I hate it when people from Europe argue against
the US by pretending they represent the only point of view
of the EU citizens.

Then again, in fairness, nearly everyone from the left to the right, not to mention the great unwashed middle, speaks for the US!

 

[nosarcasm]

Machiavelli had it all figured out.

 

[Annie]

Machiavelli had it all figured out.

He's one of my heroes, along with de Tocqueville.

 

[nosarcasm]

You should take a look at Bismarck. He should have passed
Machiavellis class with an A. He missed the A+ when
he did not overthrow the Kaiser.

 

[padisha emperor]

I believe Kathianne has already some admiration for Otto

 

[padisha emperor]

Yep, I would have rejected the constitution (if they dared to present
it to German voters) it is not because I am against the idea to coordinate
the affairs of Europe more closely, I reject the bureaucratic state of
affairs and lack of democracy.
Still I dont cheer for the rejection now because most people that rejected it were leftist anti captial looneys and our local racists. Not the crowd I usually
hang out with.

I was baffled that alot of Americans cheered on the reaction because
they view Europe as an enemy. This kind of attitude is counterproductive.

They can't present it to the Germans, do they ? I believed the referndum was aganist the Grundgesetz of 1949.

This "constitution" for the EU was more more democratic than the former treaties, and less bureaucratic (more more power for the EU Parliament).

It was a step to a political Europe, more than now.

 

[Annie]

You should take a look at Bismarck. He should have passed
Machiavellis class with an A. He missed the A+ when
he did not overthrow the Kaiser.

PE's right, quite a lot of admiration for Otto, as far as anticipating the next move. Would really have hated playing chess with him!

 

[nosarcasm]

They can't present it to the Germans, do they ? I believed the referndum was aganist the Grundgesetz of 1949.

This "constitution" for the EU was more more democratic than the former treaties, and less bureaucratic (more more power for the EU Parliament).

It was a step to a political Europe, more than now.

they could have presented it by changing the Grundgesetz and the
two major parties had the votes. THe conservatives did not
want to change it because they fear the Green party would
use to open the door for a kind of direct democracy initiatives that might
hurt business interest. But they could not make an exemption for
the EU constitution.

It is a disgrace it did not happen, in my oppinion. They will continue
to use the EU as their royal domain where old politicans, familymembers
and French bureaucrats run the show while the few so called leader
decide Europe's fate in a backroom.

 

[padisha emperor]

they could have presented it by changing the Grundgesetz and the
two major parties had the votes. THe conservatives did not
want to change it because they fear the Green party would
use to open the door for a kind of direct democracy initiatives that might
hurt business interest. But they could not make an exemption for
the EU constitution.

It is a disgrace it did not happen, in my oppinion. They will continue
to use the EU as their royal domain where old politicans, familymembers
and French bureaucrats run the show while the few so called leader
decide Europe's fate in a backroom.

ok...

thanks a lot for the explanation.


For the people good to have anticipation, there is also Napoleon (in military and politic) and Richelieu (in politic, maybe one of the best politic ever made )