France is Fucked

[Toro]

Actually, if we even went back to the tax rates we had under Reagan, we'd probalby be okay.

You see, what you forget is that Reagan cut taxes, but he also increased spending, which is what got us out of the 1981 recession. Then he realized he had to raise taxes, which is what he did.

We had our greatest prosperity when the wealthy paid a top marginal tax rate of 92%. So if you want to use history as a guide, maybe we should go back to that.

We are more prosperous now than we were in 1961.

True story.

No, we're not.

Back in the 1960's, we had an honest to God Middle Class.

And we have an honest to God middle class today too, except today's honest to God middle class has a 1500 sq ft home that is 40% bigger than 50 years ago, two cars in the driveway, lives much longer because of better medical care, works less in less dangerous environs, has several TVs with 200 channels, has access to the Internet which didn't exist 50 years ago, may or may not have granite countertops, can make a phone call almost anywhere in the country with a computer he keeps in his pocket that can store 10,000 songs he can listen to anywhere, eats better, eats out more, can get on an airplane for about 20% of the inflation-adjusted cost compared to 50 years ago, and so on, and so on, and so on.

 

[JoeB131]

We are more prosperous now than we were in 1961.

True story.

No, we're not.

Back in the 1960's, we had an honest to God Middle Class.

And we have an honest to God middle class today too, except today's honest to God middle class has a 1500 sq ft home that is 40% bigger than 50 years ago, two cars in the driveway, lives much longer because of better medical care, works less in less dangerous environs, has several TVs with 200 channels, has access to the Internet which didn't exist 50 years ago, may or may not have granite countertops, can make a phone call almost anywhere in the country with a computer he keeps in his pocket that can store 10,000 songs he can listen to anywhere, eats better, eats out more, can get on an airplane for about 20% of the inflation-adjusted cost compared to 50 years ago, and so on, and so on, and so on.

More advanced technology does NOT equal more prosperous.

And a lot of those advancements happened because of liberal insistance. Yes, workplaces are safer, but guess who keeps trying to dismantle OSHA?

On the more bread and butter issue, not so much. When I grew up, my father could work his good union job (everyone in the neighborhood had one) and raise five kids and have a summer home in Wisconsin. Mom could stay home or work part time if she wanted to.

Today, most of my siblings have limited themselves to two kids, both parents work (or worked before their kids got out of the house).

Yes, you have more goodies now, but you have more debt and you are working a lot harder to keep up with it.

But the Wall Street Parasites are getting fat, and that's all that matters.

 

[Toro]

No, we're not.

Back in the 1960's, we had an honest to God Middle Class.

And we have an honest to God middle class today too, except today's honest to God middle class has a 1500 sq ft home that is 40% bigger than 50 years ago, two cars in the driveway, lives much longer because of better medical care, works less in less dangerous environs, has several TVs with 200 channels, has access to the Internet which didn't exist 50 years ago, may or may not have granite countertops, can make a phone call almost anywhere in the country with a computer he keeps in his pocket that can store 10,000 songs he can listen to anywhere, eats better, eats out more, can get on an airplane for about 20% of the inflation-adjusted cost compared to 50 years ago, and so on, and so on, and so on.

More advanced technology does NOT equal more prosperous.

And a lot of those advancements happened because of liberal insistance. Yes, workplaces are safer, but guess who keeps trying to dismantle OSHA?

On the more bread and butter issue, not so much. When I grew up, my father could work his good union job (everyone in the neighborhood had one) and raise five kids and have a summer home in Wisconsin. Mom could stay home or work part time if she wanted to.

Today, most of my siblings have limited themselves to two kids, both parents work (or worked before their kids got out of the house).

Yes, you have more goodies now, but you have more debt and you are working a lot harder to keep up with it.

But the Wall Street Parasites are getting fat, and that's all that matters.

All wealth creation is a function of technological advancement. All of it.

Prosperity means being able to afford more and having a wider range of choices. People live in bigger and better houses, they drive better cars, they eat better food, have a much wider range of leisure options, and so on. People have far more choices, can do more and have more time to do it than they did 50 years ago.

And no, people don't work harder than they do 50 years ago. They work less. And they work in less dangerous circumstances.

 

[JoeB131]

And we have an honest to God middle class today too, except today's honest to God middle class has a 1500 sq ft home that is 40% bigger than 50 years ago, two cars in the driveway, lives much longer because of better medical care, works less in less dangerous environs, has several TVs with 200 channels, has access to the Internet which didn't exist 50 years ago, may or may not have granite countertops, can make a phone call almost anywhere in the country with a computer he keeps in his pocket that can store 10,000 songs he can listen to anywhere, eats better, eats out more, can get on an airplane for about 20% of the inflation-adjusted cost compared to 50 years ago, and so on, and so on, and so on.

More advanced technology does NOT equal more prosperous.

And a lot of those advancements happened because of liberal insistance. Yes, workplaces are safer, but guess who keeps trying to dismantle OSHA?

On the more bread and butter issue, not so much. When I grew up, my father could work his good union job (everyone in the neighborhood had one) and raise five kids and have a summer home in Wisconsin. Mom could stay home or work part time if she wanted to.

Today, most of my siblings have limited themselves to two kids, both parents work (or worked before their kids got out of the house).

Yes, you have more goodies now, but you have more debt and you are working a lot harder to keep up with it.

But the Wall Street Parasites are getting fat, and that's all that matters.

All wealth creation is a function of technological advancement. All of it.

Prosperity means being able to afford more and having a wider range of choices. People live in bigger and better houses, they drive better cars, they eat better food, have a much wider range of leisure options, and so on. People have far more choices, can do more and have more time to do it than they did 50 years ago.

And no, people don't work harder than they do 50 years ago. They work less. And they work in less dangerous circumstances.

I'm sorry, what kind of fucking alternative universe do you live in? Oh, that's right, one where you made out when other people lost their houses.

Americans take less vacation than any nation in the industrialized world.

The American middle class has declined, after 30 years of the Plutocrats making war on it. Poverty is not improved because you have an I-Phone.

 

[Artevelde]

More advanced technology does NOT equal more prosperous.

And a lot of those advancements happened because of liberal insistance. Yes, workplaces are safer, but guess who keeps trying to dismantle OSHA?

On the more bread and butter issue, not so much. When I grew up, my father could work his good union job (everyone in the neighborhood had one) and raise five kids and have a summer home in Wisconsin. Mom could stay home or work part time if she wanted to.

Today, most of my siblings have limited themselves to two kids, both parents work (or worked before their kids got out of the house).

Yes, you have more goodies now, but you have more debt and you are working a lot harder to keep up with it.

But the Wall Street Parasites are getting fat, and that's all that matters.

All wealth creation is a function of technological advancement. All of it.

Prosperity means being able to afford more and having a wider range of choices. People live in bigger and better houses, they drive better cars, they eat better food, have a much wider range of leisure options, and so on. People have far more choices, can do more and have more time to do it than they did 50 years ago.

And no, people don't work harder than they do 50 years ago. They work less. And they work in less dangerous circumstances.

I'm sorry, what kind of fucking alternative universe do you live in? Oh, that's right, one where you made out when other people lost their houses.

Americans take less vacation than any nation in the industrialized world.

The American middle class has declined, after 30 years of the Plutocrats making war on it. Poverty is not improved because you have an I-Phone.

What do you call poverty?
Is it being poor, i.e. not having sufficient means to house, clothe and feed oneself?
Or is it having less than certain other people? (back in the old days when words still meant something we used to call that envy)

 

[JoeB131]

What do you call poverty?
Is it being poor, i.e. not having sufficient means to house, clothe and feed oneself?
Or is it having less than certain other people? (back in the old days when words still meant something we used to call that envy)

I think it's a matter of fair division of the wealth.

In 1980, Average CEO pay in the US was 44 times what a line worker made

Today, Average CEO Pay is 475 times what a line worker makes.

It's not that our CEO's have gotten smarter, no matter how many glossy magazines they publish stroking themselves.

Clearly, the Middle Class has declined since 1980. Some of this is due to globalization, but a lot of it is due to greed. It's the problem of a society that has elevated capital above labor.

 

[Toro]

More advanced technology does NOT equal more prosperous.

And a lot of those advancements happened because of liberal insistance. Yes, workplaces are safer, but guess who keeps trying to dismantle OSHA?

On the more bread and butter issue, not so much. When I grew up, my father could work his good union job (everyone in the neighborhood had one) and raise five kids and have a summer home in Wisconsin. Mom could stay home or work part time if she wanted to.

Today, most of my siblings have limited themselves to two kids, both parents work (or worked before their kids got out of the house).

Yes, you have more goodies now, but you have more debt and you are working a lot harder to keep up with it.

But the Wall Street Parasites are getting fat, and that's all that matters.

All wealth creation is a function of technological advancement. All of it.

Prosperity means being able to afford more and having a wider range of choices. People live in bigger and better houses, they drive better cars, they eat better food, have a much wider range of leisure options, and so on. People have far more choices, can do more and have more time to do it than they did 50 years ago.

And no, people don't work harder than they do 50 years ago. They work less. And they work in less dangerous circumstances.

I'm sorry, what kind of fucking alternative universe do you live in? Oh, that's right, one where you made out when other people lost their houses.

Americans take less vacation than any nation in the industrialized world.

The American middle class has declined, after 30 years of the Plutocrats making war on it. Poverty is not improved because you have an I-Phone.

Americans work less than they did 50 years ago. That's a statistical fact. How much they work in France now is irrelevant.

The middle class has not declined. That is also a statistical fact. The proportion of those classified as middle class has declined slightly compared to 30 years ago, but given that all cohorts' incomes have risen during that time means that they are still better off than in 1980.

Equating the health of unions with the middle class is a false equivalency.

 

[JoeB131]

Americans work less than they did 50 years ago. That's a statistical fact. How much they work in France now is irrelevant.

The middle class has not declined. That is also a statistical fact. The proportion of those classified as middle class has declined slightly compared to 30 years ago, but given that all cohorts' incomes have risen during that time means that they are still better off than in 1980.

Equating the health of unions with the middle class is a false equivalency.

Quite the contrary, I think that the two paralell each other.

As union membership rose, so did the middle class, and as it's declined, so has the middle class.

Incomes for 90% of Americans have been stuck in neutral, and it's not just because of the Great Recession. Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for at least a generation, while the wealthiest tier has surged ahead at lighting speed.

In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.

(snip)

One major pull on the working man was the decline of unions and other labor protections, said Bill Rodgers, a former chief economist for the Labor Department, now a professor at Rutgers University.

Because of deals struck through collective bargaining, union workers have traditionally earned 15% to 20% more than their non-union counterparts, Rodgers said.

But union membership has declined rapidly over the past 30 years. In 1983, union workers made up about 20% of the workforce. In 2010, they represented less than 12%.

How the middle class became the underclass - Feb. 16, 2011