France, 1930's: A Fatal Flaw in Liberalism

[UpAndAbout]

Of course, what PC neglects to tell us is that FDR was our greatest Liberal President and that it was the US Conservatives that urged us to mind our own business and stay out of the war

Yes, but wasn't that BEFORE Japan bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

[daveman]

Really? Calling non-prison alternatives to incarceration "realistic", saying prisons are "ineffectual", and questioning the whole idea of prisons doesn't suggest to you he doesn't believe criminals should be imprisoned?

Uh huh.

Meanwhile, how about you address Zinn's other lies?

The opinions you paraphrased above are all values statements, therefore are neither true nor false, therefore cannot be lies.

I suspect this sort of confusion is where all of your errors about Zinn are coming from. You are confusing values opinions with which you disagree, with lies. The only way that a values statement can be a lie is if the person making it doesn't actually hold that value. For example, if I were to say, "Women who get abortions deserve to be in prison," that would be a lie, not because it's factually wrong (it's not making a factual statement ans so is neither true nor false), but because it's claiming a belief that I don't actually hold.

So unless you think that Zinn really believes that criminals SHOULD be imprisoned, that is not a lie.

I didn't claim that was a lie. Do keep up.

The lie is here:

Zinn contends that in spite of all this “violent crime continues to increase.” It doesn’t. Like much of Zinn’s rhetoric, if you believe the opposite of what he says in this instance you would be correct. According to a Department of Justice report released in September of 2002, the violent crime rate has been cut in half since 1993.​

You misread the exchange between BillCosby and I.

You made a mistake. It is YOUR fault, not mine.

 

[daveman]

And yet he was a member of the Communist Party.

Howard Zinn

That link says that he was not. You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you?

I guessed you missed comprehending this part:

...he had, after all, allegedly told an informant he was a card-carrying member.​

And then he told the agents otherwise.

Considering he's a proven liar, which statement to you suppose is correct?

Never mind, I know the answer. You will unthinkingly and automatically believe everything Zinn said.

 

[daveman]

I don't see that comment attributed to Zinn in that quote............

Really? Calling non-prison alternatives to incarceration "realistic", saying prisons are "ineffectual", and questioning the whole idea of prisons doesn't suggest to you he doesn't believe criminals should be imprisoned?

Uh huh.

Meanwhile, how about you address Zinn's other lies? Or are you just going to pretend they don't exist?

So, as I suspected, you do not have the quote................

Yeah. You just keep pretending Zinn didn't say what he said.

Oh, and about Zinn's other lies in the article -- it looks like you're going to pretend they don't exist.

Magical thinking. A common leftist failing.

 

[daveman]

So, as it turns out, no one can proves that Zinn's lies in the article I posted are factually correct.

That's because he is indeed a liar.

Like I said -- you can eat up his bullshit, but don't you dare tell me it tastes good.

 

[DCJ]

So, as I suspected, you do not have the quote.

Actually he did present a quote from Zinn. It doesn't include any lies, just opinions he disagrees with, but it WAS from Howard Zinn.

Perhaps you wanna present where Zinn made the quote???

It is real simple to do, so do it....................

 

[DCJ]

Really? Calling non-prison alternatives to incarceration "realistic", saying prisons are "ineffectual", and questioning the whole idea of prisons doesn't suggest to you he doesn't believe criminals should be imprisoned?

Uh huh.

Meanwhile, how about you address Zinn's other lies? Or are you just going to pretend they don't exist?

So, as I suspected, you do not have the quote................

Yeah. You just keep pretending Zinn didn't say what he said.

Oh, and about Zinn's other lies in the article -- it looks like you're going to pretend they don't exist.

Magical thinking. A common leftist failing.

HHHmmmmmm I an not interested in chasing your shadows, you got outted on the first, my job is done on that matter.............

Since you are a big hater, I am sure we will have plenty of more interesting things to discuss down the road.............

Howard was an old man, made lots & lots points, talks & speeches, & unlike yourself, never pretended to be unfathomable, unless you can find a "quote" disproving that of course............lol

Have you actually read any of his US history???

 

[Dragon]

The lie is here:

Zinn contends that in spite of all this “violent crime continues to increase.”​

You have not demonstrated that Zinn said this. All you have quoted was someone else's statement about him.​

 

[Flopper]

National Socialism in Germany and Communism in the USSR.

I bet you believe everything advertising tells you, too.

There were, in fact, some Nazis who took the "socialist" part of the party's name seriously. They were murdered after Hitler came to power. After that, it was just a name.

You're correct.

Hitler transformed the German Worker's Party into the National Workers Party and to gain support of the trade unions, he changed it to the German National Socialist Workers Party, something that would come back to haunt him in dealing with German Industrialist in preparation for war.

After becoming Chancellor, he destroyed the trade unions, criminalized strikes and walkouts. Private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the leader of the enterprise. and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." The employer was of course subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite.

Although redistribution of wealth was used in the 20's to garner support from labor, once in power they did the very opposite.

 

[daveman]

So, as I suspected, you do not have the quote................

Yeah. You just keep pretending Zinn didn't say what he said.

Oh, and about Zinn's other lies in the article -- it looks like you're going to pretend they don't exist.

Magical thinking. A common leftist failing.

HHHmmmmmm I an not interested in chasing your shadows, you got outted on the first, my job is done on that matter.............

I'm sure you feel it is.

So you can't prove his other lies are factually correct.

So you punt.

Since you are a big hater, I am sure we will have plenty of more interesting things to discuss down the road.............

Perhaps we could discuss the definition of "hate", which is NOT "disagreeing with a leftist".

Howard was an old man, made lots & lots points, talks & speeches, & unlike yourself, never pretended to be unfathomable, unless you can find a "quote" disproving that of course............lol

Oh, he was entirely fathomable -- to those who don't automatically believe everything he said.

Have you actually read any of his US history???

I don't need to take a bite of shit to know it tastes like shit.

Leftist-agenda-driven fantasies don't interest me. I've read enough excerpts to know he deliberately altered and misstated facts (and outright lied) to know he's full of crap.

 

[daveman]

The lie is here:

Zinn contends that in spite of all this “violent crime continues to increase.”​

You have not demonstrated that Zinn said this. All you have quoted was someone else's statement about him.​

It's in his People's History of the United States.

Are you aware of the function of quotation marks and their significance?​

 

[Dragon]

It's in his People's History of the United States.

Are you aware of the function of quotation marks and their significance?

You presented a quote from the People's History that did NOT say that. You also presented someone else's words from something else, saying that he DID say that.

You have never presented Zinn's words actually saying that.

 

[DCJ]

Yeah. You just keep pretending Zinn didn't say what he said.

Oh, and about Zinn's other lies in the article -- it looks like you're going to pretend they don't exist.

Magical thinking. A common leftist failing.

HHHmmmmmm I an not interested in chasing your shadows, you got outted on the first, my job is done on that matter.............

I'm sure you feel it is.

So you can't prove his other lies are factually correct.

So you punt.

Perhaps we could discuss the definition of "hate", which is NOT "disagreeing with a leftist".

Howard was an old man, made lots & lots points, talks & speeches, & unlike yourself, never pretended to be unfathomable, unless you can find a "quote" disproving that of course............lol

Oh, he was entirely fathomable -- to those who don't automatically believe everything he said.

Have you actually read any of his US history???

I don't need to take a bite of shit to know it tastes like shit.

Leftist-agenda-driven fantasies don't interest me. I've read enough excerpts to know he deliberately altered and misstated facts (and outright lied) to know he's full of crap.

No, I would imagine you already know what that tastes like.............

& that makes you an expert on your biased opinion, nothing more...........


Since you have not actually read it, your opinion on it is worthless, just like the shit I outted you on.............

You go read it, & get back to me............ We can talk then..........

 

[daveman]

It's in his People's History of the United States.

Are you aware of the function of quotation marks and their significance?

You presented a quote from the People's History that did NOT say that. You also presented someone else's words from something else, saying that he DID say that.

You have never presented Zinn's words actually saying that.

The excerpt in question is not available online, and I'm not going to waste my money buying the piece of shit.

So it looks like your faith in your alleged historian will remain unchallenged by truth.

 

[daveman]

HHHmmmmmm I an not interested in chasing your shadows, you got outted on the first, my job is done on that matter.............

I'm sure you feel it is.

So you can't prove his other lies are factually correct.

So you punt.

Perhaps we could discuss the definition of "hate", which is NOT "disagreeing with a leftist".

Oh, he was entirely fathomable -- to those who don't automatically believe everything he said.

Have you actually read any of his US history???

I don't need to take a bite of shit to know it tastes like shit.

Leftist-agenda-driven fantasies don't interest me. I've read enough excerpts to know he deliberately altered and misstated facts (and outright lied) to know he's full of crap.

No, I would imagine you already know what that tastes like.............

& that makes you an expert on your biased opinion, nothing more...........


Since you have not actually read it, your opinion on it is worthless, just like the shit I outted you on.............

You go read it, & get back to me............ We can talk then..........

And why should I bother? You like the taste of his shit. You're not going to let facts change your mind.

Enjoy your delusions.

 

[DCJ]

I'm sure you feel it is.

So you can't prove his other lies are factually correct.

So you punt.

Perhaps we could discuss the definition of "hate", which is NOT "disagreeing with a leftist".

Oh, he was entirely fathomable -- to those who don't automatically believe everything he said.

I don't need to take a bite of shit to know it tastes like shit.

Leftist-agenda-driven fantasies don't interest me. I've read enough excerpts to know he deliberately altered and misstated facts (and outright lied) to know he's full of crap.

No, I would imagine you already know what that tastes like.............

& that makes you an expert on your biased opinion, nothing more...........


Since you have not actually read it, your opinion on it is worthless, just like the shit I outted you on.............

You go read it, & get back to me............ We can talk then..........

And why should I bother?

Good question, why should you bother, a total lack of cred on the issue has gotten you this far.........

You must be doing alright w/ all those posts & I guess no one actually bothers to check your shit anyway.......... Enjoy

AnywayZ if one day you decided to read it & make "an informed opinion" I would be interested in reading it.........

 

[ThirdTerm]

2. Which brings us to Paul Faure, the general-secretary of said French Socialists, and leader of the faction that opposed war- at any cost. While Blum recognized the horror that Hitler represented, the Paul-Fauristes desperately sought to find a description of reality that did not point in the direction of war! ‘Don’t judge Germany too quickly, nor too starkly.’ After all, they had been treated poorly by the Treaty of Versailles. And their people living in Slavic countries weren’t being treated well… shouldn’t we show some flexibility? Conciliate the outraged German people!

The traditional anti-militarism of the French left hampered France's war efforts and Leon Blum resigned as French Prime Minister with the fall of the Popular Front in 1937 because his appeasement policy toward Germany was unpopular. A right-wing regime in France could have prevented the German invasion in 1940 and the subsequent occupation which humiliated the country but there was no Churchill in France.

 

[daveman]

No, I would imagine you already know what that tastes like.............

& that makes you an expert on your biased opinion, nothing more...........


Since you have not actually read it, your opinion on it is worthless, just like the shit I outted you on.............

You go read it, & get back to me............ We can talk then..........

And why should I bother?

Good question, why should you bother, a total lack of cred on the issue has gotten you this far.........

You must be doing alright w/ all those posts & I guess no one actually bothers to check your shit anyway.......... Enjoy

AnywayZ if one day you decided to read it & make "an informed opinion" I would be interested in reading it.........

You left off the rest of my post:

You like the taste of his shit. You're not going to let facts change your mind.

Enjoy your delusions.​

As far as cred, do you really think I give a shit about the opinion of anyone who thinks Zinn's not a ideologue hack?

You flatter yourself. For no good reason.

 

[Dragon]

The excerpt in question is not available online, and I'm not going to waste my money buying the piece of shit.

So it looks like your faith in your alleged historian will remain unchallenged by truth.

LOL my views are in no way dependent on Zinn, and you quoted him, I didn't. Just the same, I'd recommend reading his book. The fact that you disagree with him is the best reason to do so. History isn't a presentation of "just the facts," because that's impossible with anything as complex as history. A historian always selects which facts to present and inserts his/her own biases, inevitably.

Another good historian to read, not as far "out there" as Zinn but a good antidote to the usual, is Barbara Tuchmann.

EDIT: I very much doubt that Zinn's alleged statement that crime was still increasing in the late Clinton years is in A People's History, since that was an earlier work of his.

 

[DCJ]

And why should I bother?

Good question, why should you bother, a total lack of cred on the issue has gotten you this far.........

You must be doing alright w/ all those posts & I guess no one actually bothers to check your shit anyway.......... Enjoy

AnywayZ if one day you decided to read it & make "an informed opinion" I would be interested in reading it.........

You left off the rest of my post:

You like the taste of his shit. You're not going to let facts change your mind.

Enjoy your delusions.​

As far as cred, do you really think I give a shit about the opinion of anyone who thinks Zinn's not a ideologue hack?

You flatter yourself. For no good reason.

You mean your childish part???? I don't bother w/ grown-UPs petty lil "shit"...... I guess it makes you feel better after I pointed out you are a fraud??? No matter......

That is all you got......

When you read the book, I will be happy to rub your nose in that shit........ Go for it!!!