For Vietnam Vets, an apology and thanks

[strollingbones]

JenT, you are dealing with kooks. I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.

and you sir are an idiot....my family are vets...do i hate them...no ...i hate lies and myths....seems the one who has the problem is the one who claims to have spit on vets...your good buddy jent....

 

[JakeStarkey]

JenT, you are dealing with kooks. I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.

and you sir are an idiot....my family are vets...do i hate them...no ...i hate lies and myths....seems the one who has the problem is the one who claims to have spit on vets...your good buddy jent....

You hate "lies" and "myths". Then you hate yourself, because the spitting happened. The uncontrovertible evidence has been posted, and what you think matters not a drop.

 

[JakeStarkey]

'sbones, why do you hate JenT so?

I think that is your real reason for all the nonsense on your part.

 

[Ravi]

What a delusional douche bag.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ravi, you have no evidence for your belief about the spitting on vets, so you are dismissed.

Carryon!

 

[rightwinger]

Would that not be considered A LIE...to suggest that NEW YORK by majority is a LIBERAL STATE? Considering the FACTUAL INFORMATION that was just released that clearly points out the FACT that Conservatives outnumber LIBERALS in 47 of the 50 states with the other 3 being virtually tied....and NY, indeed was not even tied. And another lie being propagatged is the fact that NY somehow preformed more than their share of duty in the Viet Nam conflict......when the FACTs point out that is was WHITE...PROTESTANT SOUTHERNERS that by majority accounted for the greatest number of DEATHs in that conflict. The ONLY thing NY might lead the nation in would be RUDENESS.

I believe Ed Koch was Mayor of New York City never known as a conservative bastion.

I'd have to see your numbers on White Protestant Southerners being the largest number of deaths. Given that the draft covered the entire US and included Blacks and other religions, I'd have to see where the southern whites suffered more deaths than the rest of the country combined.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.

Southern White Protestants have traditionally enlisted in signficantly greater numbers in relation to the overall population. However, the draft was on, which was weighted against minorities, the poor, and the uneducated. African Americans, additionally, were enlisting in greater numbers because of the benefits and retirement at twenty years. Their numbers in the Army may have been as high as three times their percentage of the population by the early 1980s.

 

[rightwinger]

I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.

Southern White Protestants have traditionally enlisted in signficantly greater numbers in relation to the overall population. However, the draft was on, which was weighted against minorities, the poor, and the uneducated. African Americans, additionally, were enlisting in greater numbers because of the benefits and retirement at twenty years. Their numbers in the Army may have been as high as three times their percentage of the population by the early 1980s.

Exactly as I remember it. It was the lower class and minorities that did not get the draft deferments. To state that "Southern White Protestants" bore the bulk of the deaths is disrecpectful to the large numbers of southern blacks who also fought and died.

 

[Sunni Man]

I don't have a dog in this thought but do have some comments.

Southern White Protestants have traditionally enlisted in signficantly greater numbers in relation to the overall population. However, the draft was on, which was weighted against minorities, the poor, and the uneducated. African Americans, additionally, were enlisting in greater numbers because of the benefits and retirement at twenty years. Their numbers in the Army may have been as high as three times their percentage of the population by the early 1980s.

Exactly as I remember it. It was the lower class and minorities that did not get the draft deferments. To state that "Southern White Protestants" bore the bulk of the deaths is disrecpectful to the large numbers of southern blacks who also fought and died.

For most of the Vietnam War a person enrolled in college got a draft deferment.

As most blacks couldn't get into college because of low grades or didn't have the money.

It was mainly white kids who got the deferments and poor uneducated blacks were prime fodder for the draff.

 

[JakeStarkey]

All I know there was so many dead of what-ever-color of Americans.

 

[Diuretic]

I know this is about the American Vietnam War experience but perhaps some reflection on what happened in my country might add to the discussion.

When Australia sent her military to Vietnam most people here didn't have clue where it was (twist on the old "God invented war to teach Americans geography" joke). We couldn't even pronounce it properly, I remember a kid at high school with me telling me it was pronounced, "Vietnum". And you know it was pretty low key while the regular (career) military were being sent there. There were some early anti-war demonstrations, mainly led by those lovely Quaker people (never met one I didn't like). On their street marches they used to use the footpath and when they got to the pedestrian "don't cross" red light they'd obey it even though the front of the line had crossed on the green.

Anyway, as things hotted up we sent our National Service personnel as well. The shit hit the fan then. We had National Service as a standing requirement - I think it was called selective service in the US, not sure. But we started sending Nashos as we called them to Vietnam. Errol Noack was killed in 1966.

Pte Errol W Noack

It wasn't long after Pte Noack's death that the anti-war movement really got into gear. I have to make this point first up, it was 'anti-war' not 'anti-soldier'. A lot of those folks who went out on the streets believed in the old WWI pacifist slogan that a bayonet was a weapon with a worker at both ends. But then many of them were highly radicalised as well. I remember confronting (with my colleagues) a beakaway group at a very big demo where they were waving Viet Cong flags, had the headbands on and all the rest of it, and were chanting in support of Ho Chi Minh (nowadays their contemporaries would be chanting "ho" as part of the words to a rap song, but I digress).

Public opinion, at first complacent, then later supportive of the government's policy in sending our military to someone else's war (Australia has a fine track record for that) due to the influence of the domino theory and our long held fear of the "yellow hordes" from the north, began to change when the casualties mounted up. People smelled the rat of propaganda, worked out the war was for a bullshit cause and began to resist. But again the finger was pointed at the government, no the individuals who were sent to Vietnam.

I have to say that when our involvement ended there was no big welcoming back parade, one of the reasons was that our government and the military brass had completely stuffed up the return process. Soldiers came back in dribs and drabs instead of as complete units.

Parades for soldiers returning from Vietnam were easier to organise when large units travelled home on ships. Many soldiers, for one reason or another, flew home to an airport and disappeared into the crowds. It was not the opponents of the war who made such bad decisions about repatriation.

Protesters not to blame for Viet vets neglect - Eureka Street

Some of the WWII and Korea and Malaya vets were a bit disparaging of the Vietnam vets but that didn't continue for long. I don't remember our Vietnam vets being ashamed of their service either. I worked with many colleagues who had done their National Service in Vietnam and proudly wore their ribbons on their uniforms. I worked with several who wore the Infantry Combat Badge (http://www.defence.gov.au/army/RAINF/docs/AP97_05.pdf).

One of the best representations I saw about the war from our perspective was a film called "The Odd Angry Shot". The production values now look a bit cheap but I remember at the time some of my mates who served were absolutely full of praise for the film, saying it took them back. For mine, having seen it several times, the final scenes of the blokes back in Australia having a beer in a bar and being served by a vaguely interested barman and basically ignored by everyone else is key to the film. Anyway I suppose you have to see it to understand what I'm on about.

‘One of the most realistic war film ever made’

So what's my point? My point is that there is much mythology about the Vietnam War, no surprise there, it happens for all wars. But it seems to me that that war and its aftermath will be dragged up time and time again by those who want a partisan shitfight about contemporary issues and will use the various versions of the war and its accompanying mythologies to try and bolster their position on whatever it is being discussed. The individuals who fought in that war were used then, they shouldn't be used a second, third, fourth, fifth and so on, time.

Better to push governments for better treatment of returning personnel

PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD): An Australian Vietnam Veteran's Experience

And for the partisan hacks of the right who insist on demonising the left because "they didn't/don't support the troops!" take this and shove it. This is the voice of the left:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal,
(1t was long march from cadets).
The Sixth Battalion was the next to tour and it was me who drew the card&#8230;
We did Canungra and Shoalwater before we left.

And Townsville lined the footpath as we marched down to the quay;
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean;
And there's me in my slouch hat, with my SLR and greens&#8230;
God help me, I was only nineteen.

From Vung Tau riding Chinooks to the dust at Nui Dat,
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home, VB and pin-ups on the lockers,
and an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.

And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And night time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.

A four week operation, when each step could mean your last one on two legs:
it was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down 'til they had you dusted off,
so you closed your eyes and thought about something else.

Then someone yelled out "Contact"', and the bloke behind me swore.
We hooked in there for hours, then a God almighty roar;
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon: -
God help me, he was going home in June.

1 can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
on a thirty-six hour rec. leave in Vung Tau.
And I can still hear Frankie lying screaming in the jungle.
'Till the morphine came and killed the bloody row

And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears,
and stories that my father told me never seemed quite real
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel&#8230;
God help me, I was only nineteen.

And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me,
I was only nineteen.

 

[JenT]

'sbones, why do you hate JenT so?

I think that is your real reason for all the nonsense on your part.

Jake that's exactly what I was about to post but then they'd go into a diatribe about how I think it's all about me

Next time you want to honor Vets, Jen, leave out the lies and don't use the Vets as tools.

It's really not that hard to do.

JenT, you are dealing with kooks. I have no idea what their kooky endgame may be, but this I do know -- they are kooky and the hate the Vietnam Vets.

and you sir are an idiot....my family are vets...do i hate them...no ...i hate lies and myths....seems the one who has the problem is the one who claims to have spit on vets...your good buddy jent....

baiting (shrug)

and I think it's really rude you would care so little about people that fought for you and your country, just to try to play games with me

I can't see any other reason for your stubborness

To all Vets and acting military, "there goes my hero, watch him as he goes"

YouTube - Tribute to the USMC SEMPER-Fi

 

[Emma]

I know this is about the American Vietnam War experience but perhaps some reflection on what happened in my country might add to the discussion.

When Australia sent her military to Vietnam most people here didn't have clue where it was (twist on the old "God invented war to teach Americans geography" joke). We couldn't even pronounce it properly, I remember a kid at high school with me telling me it was pronounced, "Vietnum". And you know it was pretty low key while the regular (career) military were being sent there. There were some early anti-war demonstrations, mainly led by those lovely Quaker people (never met one I didn't like). On their street marches they used to use the footpath and when they got to the pedestrian "don't cross" red light they'd obey it even though the front of the line had crossed on the green.

Anyway, as things hotted up we sent our National Service personnel as well. The shit hit the fan then. We had National Service as a standing requirement - I think it was called selective service in the US, not sure. But we started sending Nashos as we called them to Vietnam. Errol Noack was killed in 1966.

Pte Errol W Noack

It wasn't long after Pte Noack's death that the anti-war movement really got into gear. I have to make this point first up, it was 'anti-war' not 'anti-soldier'. A lot of those folks who went out on the streets believed in the old WWI pacifist slogan that a bayonet was a weapon with a worker at both ends. But then many of them were highly radicalised as well. I remember confronting (with my colleagues) a beakaway group at a very big demo where they were waving Viet Cong flags, had the headbands on and all the rest of it, and were chanting in support of Ho Chi Minh (nowadays their contemporaries would be chanting "ho" as part of the words to a rap song, but I digress).

Public opinion, at first complacent, then later supportive of the government's policy in sending our military to someone else's war (Australia has a fine track record for that) due to the influence of the domino theory and our long held fear of the "yellow hordes" from the north, began to change when the casualties mounted up. People smelled the rat of propaganda, worked out the war was for a bullshit cause and began to resist. But again the finger was pointed at the government, no the individuals who were sent to Vietnam.

I have to say that when our involvement ended there was no big welcoming back parade, one of the reasons was that our government and the military brass had completely stuffed up the return process. Soldiers came back in dribs and drabs instead of as complete units.

Parades for soldiers returning from Vietnam were easier to organise when large units travelled home on ships. Many soldiers, for one reason or another, flew home to an airport and disappeared into the crowds. It was not the opponents of the war who made such bad decisions about repatriation.

Protesters not to blame for Viet vets neglect - Eureka Street

Some of the WWII and Korea and Malaya vets were a bit disparaging of the Vietnam vets but that didn't continue for long. I don't remember our Vietnam vets being ashamed of their service either. I worked with many colleagues who had done their National Service in Vietnam and proudly wore their ribbons on their uniforms. I worked with several who wore the Infantry Combat Badge (http://www.defence.gov.au/army/RAINF/docs/AP97_05.pdf).

One of the best representations I saw about the war from our perspective was a film called "The Odd Angry Shot". The production values now look a bit cheap but I remember at the time some of my mates who served were absolutely full of praise for the film, saying it took them back. For mine, having seen it several times, the final scenes of the blokes back in Australia having a beer in a bar and being served by a vaguely interested barman and basically ignored by everyone else is key to the film. Anyway I suppose you have to see it to understand what I'm on about.

‘One of the most realistic war film ever made’

So what's my point? My point is that there is much mythology about the Vietnam War, no surprise there, it happens for all wars. But it seems to me that that war and its aftermath will be dragged up time and time again by those who want a partisan shitfight about contemporary issues and will use the various versions of the war and its accompanying mythologies to try and bolster their position on whatever it is being discussed. The individuals who fought in that war were used then, they shouldn't be used a second, third, fourth, fifth and so on, time.

Better to push governments for better treatment of returning personnel

PostTraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD): An Australian Vietnam Veteran's Experience

And for the partisan hacks of the right who insist on demonising the left because "they didn't/don't support the troops!" take this and shove it. This is the voice of the left:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/n7TXBuVUQJw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Mum and Dad and Denny saw the passing out parade at Puckapunyal,
(1t was long march from cadets).
The Sixth Battalion was the next to tour and it was me who drew the card…
We did Canungra and Shoalwater before we left.

And Townsville lined the footpath as we marched down to the quay;
This clipping from the paper shows us young and strong and clean;
And there's me in my slouch hat, with my SLR and greens…
God help me, I was only nineteen.

From Vung Tau riding Chinooks to the dust at Nui Dat,
I'd been in and out of choppers now for months.
But we made our tents a home, VB and pin-ups on the lockers,
and an Asian orange sunset through the scrub.

And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And night time's just a jungle dark and a barking M16?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me, I was only nineteen.

A four week operation, when each step could mean your last one on two legs:
it was a war within yourself.
But you wouldn't let your mates down 'til they had you dusted off,
so you closed your eyes and thought about something else.

Then someone yelled out "Contact"', and the bloke behind me swore.
We hooked in there for hours, then a God almighty roar;
Frankie kicked a mine the day that mankind kicked the moon: -
God help me, he was going home in June.

1 can still see Frankie, drinking tinnies in the Grand Hotel
on a thirty-six hour rec. leave in Vung Tau.
And I can still hear Frankie lying screaming in the jungle.
'Till the morphine came and killed the bloody row

And the Anzac legends didn't mention mud and blood and tears,
and stories that my father told me never seemed quite real
I caught some pieces in my back that I didn't even feel…
God help me, I was only nineteen.

And can you tell me, doctor, why I still can't get to sleep?
And why the Channel Seven chopper chills me to my feet?
And what's this rash that comes and goes, can you tell me what it means?
God help me,
I was only nineteen.

Oh God. I'm in tears. Thank you for this.

 

[noose4]

that is a very powerful, strong song thanks for posting it i had never heard it before.

 

[Diuretic]

Thank you both for viewing it.