For liberallogic: Bible Topics

[Nienna]

I thought we should move this to another thread. But here is the post that I am addressing:

Masturbation is not directly addressed in the Bible, but in the "Student Bible" that the church gave me for confirmation directly stated that it violated Christian values. And also, the religious teachers made that clear as well.
Women and men:

God to Eve (Genesis):
"I shall give you great labour in childbearing; with labour you will bear children. You will desire your husband, BUT HE WILL BE YOUR MASTER."

Slavery (Genesis):
"Bless, O Lord, the tents of Shem; may Canaan be his slave. May God extend Japheth's boundaries, let him dwell in the tents of Shem, may Canaan be his slave."
Not to mention that it is mentioned many times throughout the bible without the condemnation of the lord. Why, "at the beginning of society," when God is putting everything into place, would he forget to say that slavery isn't moral, but instead focuses on making Eve suffer through childbirth?

I will try to take this bit-by-bit.

 

[Nienna]

Masturbation
I, too, was raised Catholic, although I am no longer practicing Catholicism. I don't remember getting any info on masturbation in (Catholic) school. Maybe they gave that out especially to the boys. :tng:

Manu, dillo, and I had a lively discussion on this subject awhile back. I think we should break this into two subcategories: Masturbation of the Married, and Masturbation of the Single.

Masturbation of the MarriedThe Bible makes it clear that each partner in the marriage belongs, not only to himself, but to the other as well. "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise, the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone, but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone, but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other." (1Corinthians 7:3-5a)

One of the major benefits of marriage is sexual release. If a partner needs release, it is the duty of the other partner to supply that. Likewise, I believe it is the duty of the "horny" partner to seek his/her spouse for release. If one gets into the habit of "releasing himself," it could potentially damage the relationship. If one partner is unable to fulfill his/her marital duty, I think masturbation may be used. However, for the sake of decency, he should try to keep it private.

Masturbation of the Single According to the Bible, the single person has no moral method of sexual release EXCEPT masturbation. The danger here, and this applies to married people too, is lustful thoughts. "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) I believe that masturbation is generally accompanied by lustful or erotic images in the mind. This may be where the sin comes in. If a married man is fantasizing about someone other than his wife, it is adultery. If a single man cannot satisfy himself without fantastic images, it is adultery or fornication.

This is my take on what the Bible has to say about masturbation. As stated before, I can recall no verse in which this topic is directly addressed.

 

[dmp]

Often 'The Church' confuses normal, biological sexual desire or arrousal with 'lust'. I've heard people say that if a guy has a wet-dream he must have hidden lust in his heart somewhere. I contend Lust cannot be hidden, by it's very definition. Lust requires effort. Purpose. Obsessive desire towards an object or feeling OTHER than God. Consuming, and junk.

Too often the church creates sin in the lives of it's membership because "Well, masturbation MUST be lustful!". That 'briefs well' but it's NOT biblical.

Well done, J.

 

[Nienna]

Often 'The Church' confuses normal, biological sexual desire or arrousal with 'lust'. I've heard people say that if a guy has a wet-dream he must have hidden lust in his heart somewhere. I contend Lust cannot be hidden, by it's very definition. Lust requires effort. Purpose. Obsessive desire towards an object or feeling OTHER than God. Consuming, and junk.

Too often the church creates sin in the lives of it's membership because "Well, masturbation MUST be lustful!". That 'briefs well' but it's NOT biblical.

Well done, J.

You're a dear, D.

 

[Joz]

I don't know where I've been today, I just saw this.

Masturbation
If one partner is unable to fulfill his/her marital duty, I think masturbation may be used. However, for the sake of decency, he should try to keep it private.

I'm sorry Mom, but it is either right or wrong.

Masturbation of the Single According to the Bible, the single person has no moral method of sexual release EXCEPT masturbation. The danger here, and this applies to married people too, is lustful thoughts.

Suppose you are engaged and have chosen to wait until marriage for intercourse? Is is wrong to masturbate while thinking of your intended? Or thinking of your spouse?

I don't believe it is wrong, but as with anythything, excess can do harm (& I don't mean going blind).

Unlike intercourse which is a give/get activity, masturbation is a totally selfish act. This is where I believe it can become harmful.

What if you masturbate, not by your partner but with your partner, present?

 

[dmp]

I don't know where I've been today, I just saw this. I'm sorry Mom, but it is either right or wrong.

Suppose you are engaged and have chosen to wait until marriage for intercourse? Is is wrong to masturbate while thinking of your intended? Or thinking of your spouse?

I don't believe it is wrong, but as with anythything, excess can do harm (& I don't mean going blind).

Unlike intercourse which is a give/get activity, masturbation is a totally selfish act. This is where I believe it can become harmful.

What if you masturbate, not by your partner but with your partner, present?

Couple of thoughts - not specifically regarding what you put, Starla...but general thoughts on the subject:

Sex isn't about 'pleasing' - Sex is about forming a physical and emotional bond with one's wife. Masturbating is about releasing the pent-up frustration and physical pain which can occur when she 'has a headache'.

Too many people in 'the church' feel if something is 'sexual' it must CERTAINLY be sinful. To me, masturbation for married men or women can be a little sad; I want to be able to help my wife not 'need' to do that - I want to be there for her always. In the same way, just may not always be feasable due to schedule, stresses, etc. It's not that I'd be unhappy about my wife taking matters into her own hands, it's just I'd be a little sad I wasn't there to help. I'm not sure masturbation can't be beneficial to both parties - just takes some imagination maybe?

 

[liberalogic]

When I spoke of masturbation, I was going based on what I was taught by my catholic church. When I was going to receive my confirmation (in 9th grade), we attended youth groups led by teens who were a few years older than us. It was intended for them to relate to us so that we could better find God. I distinctly remember sitting in a classroom with my youth group leader with the rest of our group, him turning off the lights, and making us go around the room and say whether or not we masturbated. He said that he understood that we had urges, but the only time we should be "releasing" ourselves is in marriage. We were constantly told that masturbation was unacceptable because we were abusing God's gift of pleasure.

I don't know whether this concept is widespread in christianity, but this was my experience as a catholic.

If I were to look at this as a Christian, and I mean a hardcore Christian, I would probably say that masturbation is wrong. I would also say that sex outside of marriage and within marriage (with the exception of reproduction) is wrong as well. Obviously, I don't feel that way personally, but it makes sense that if every time a man orgasms, he has the potential to impregnate a woman. Those are living cells, therefore, if they are not directed towards reproduction, they are being wasted and potential life is being destroyed. That is the logic that I can deduce from catholicism.

And trust me, I'm not anti-sex or anything like that (especially between a married couple)...I'm just putting what I learned into perspective and throwing it out as an idea.

 

[dmp]

If I were to look at this as a Christian, and I mean a hardcore Christian, I would probably say that masturbation is wrong. I would also say that sex outside of marriage and within marriage (with the exception of reproduction) is wrong as well.

Hardcore christians would absolutely dissagree with you.


The 'more' somebody is like christ, the more they 'get it'...it being 'they understand'.

 

[liberalogic]

Hardcore christians would absolutely dissagree with you.


The 'more' somebody is like christ, the more they 'get it'...it being 'they understand'.

Are you saying Christ advocated masturbation or sex for pleasure? I don't really get how that ties into the whole masturbation thing. Can you please clarify that for me.

 

[Joz]

...Sex isn't about 'pleasing' -Sex is about forming a physical and emotional bond with one's wife.

You're kidding right??? What an archaic attitude! Sounds like some thing my mother would say.....something about sex being her wifely duty.
*sigh* back to the salt mine.....time for more bonding...... *sigh*

You can emotionally bond with your wife without intercourse.
When you share your hopes, dreams, ideas & fears, you share a part of you that you hope is excepted by your partner, you make yourself vulnerable; And it forms a bond. For if this stuff is then discussed at the next girl-gathering, you would feel betrayed.

And sex by itself, well alot of people have met a person & shortly thereafter had sex with them. For a man, he can pull his pants up, walk out the door, rate it as pretty good & never look back; a little bit different for a woman. It was just intercourse. But it was pleasing.

It is the physical act of a couple making themselves EXTREMELY vulnerable to each other, combined with the emotional bond that should already exist between the two of you, that makes this act genuinely & sincerely soul touching. And if that isn't pleasure.......
I'll kiss your ass.

Masturbating is about releasing the pent-up frustration and physical pain which can occur when she 'has a headache'.......
....I want to be able to help my wife not 'need' to do that - I want to be there for her always. In the same way, just may not always be feasable due to schedule, stresses, etc. It's not that I'd be unhappy about my wife taking matters into her own hands, it's just I'd be a little sad I wasn't there to help. .....

Well in the same way you feel it's OK for you when she has a headache "releasing the pent-up frustration and physical pain" Why isn't it OK for her when you "may not always be feasable due to schedule, stresses"? Why do you feel slighted??
You've got a chauvanistic double standard going on here.

 

[Joz]

...... I distinctly remember sitting in a classroom with my youth group leader with the rest of our group, him turning off the lights, and making us go around the room and say whether or not we masturbated. He said that he understood that we had urges,

This is child abuse. Plain & simple.

but the only time we should be "releasing" ourselves is in marriage. We were constantly told that masturbation was unacceptable because we were abusing God's gift of pleasure.

DMP says it isn't suppose to be for pleasure. .
But why??? Someone's gotta give me some proof here other than what I stated earlier. And I don't think you're gonna be able to.

I don't know whether this concept is widespread in christianity, but this was my experience as a catholic.......
If I were to look at this as a Christian, and I mean a hardcore Christian, I would probably say that masturbation is wrong. I would also say that sex outside of marriage and within marriage (with the exception of reproduction) is wrong as well.

Well if this is what they're teaching, no wonder you hate the idea of christianity. Explain your reasoning here to me. I can't believe you actually typed that.

Obviously, I don't feel that way personally, but.... I'm just putting what I learned into perspective and throwing it out as an idea.

Glad to hear that!

it makes sense that if every time a man orgasms, he has the potential to impregnate a woman. Those are living cells, therefore, if they are not directed towards reproduction, they are being wasted and potential life is being destroyed. That is the logic that I can deduce from catholicism.

I've heard that one before.

 

[dmp]

You're kidding right??? What an archaic attitude! Sounds like some thing my mother would say.....something about sex being her wifely duty.
*sigh* back to the salt mine.....time for more bonding...... *sigh*

Not at all. I'm saying sex is a tool people use to build a bond which can't be b uilt in any other way. Pleasure is a side-effect. it's about MUCH MORE than pleasure.

You can emotionally bond with your wife without intercourse.
When you share your hopes, dreams, ideas & fears, you share a part of you that you hope is excepted by your partner, you make yourself vulnerable; And it forms a bond. For if this stuff is then discussed at the next girl-gathering, you would feel betrayed.

You are preaching to the choir.

It is the physical act of a couple making themselves EXTREMELY vulnerable to each other, combined with the emotional bond that should already exist between the two of you, that makes this act genuinely & sincerely soul touching. And if that isn't pleasure....... I'll kiss your ass.

yup. You're exactly right.

Well in the same way you feel it's OK for you when she has a headache "releasing the pent-up frustration and physical pain" Why isn't it OK for her when you "may not always be feasable due to schedule, stresses"? Why do you feel slighted??
You've got a chauvanistic double standard going on here.

uh? come-again? no pun intended. My headache quip was a funny, based on masturbation from a husband's perspective.

And I'm ALWAYS there should my lover call. I do everything I can to not leave them high and dry.

 

[liberalogic]

This is child abuse. Plain & simple.

DMP says it isn't suppose to be for pleasure. .
But why??? Someone's gotta give me some proof here other than what I stated earlier. And I don't think you're gonna be able to.

Well if this is what they're teaching, no wonder you hate the idea of christianity. Explain your reasoning here to me. I can't believe you actually typed that.

Glad to hear that!

I've heard that one before.

Here's what I learned in catholic classes:
No masturbation period, no sex until marriage and only for reproduction when in marriage, no contraceptives ever, and you need to control your erections because if you don't at least try to, then you're sinning.

Personally, my views on sex obviously differ. I don't agree with this at all. What I will say is that I see the logic for it. Just like the abortion issue-- I disagree, but I see the reasonable rationale on the other side. To me, the Catholic church's teachings here make perfect sense in a logical way. If God gives a man sperm and a woman an egg and allows them to work together to form a baby, then that's the only time they should have sex. If that wasn't the case, then God could've given us an on/off switch for ejaculation (on when you want to impregnate, off when you only want pleasure). The fact that sperm is produced with every orgasm indicates the potential for reproduction, therefore, it should only be used for that purpose. Masturbating is only stimulating yourself in complete opposition to this principle-- God's intention -- fertilization. Plus, sperm is living; so technically if you do not intend for it to reach the egg, then you are intentionally killing cells that have the potential to create a newborn baby.

 

[Joz]

.....uh? come-again? no pun intended. My headache quip was a funny, based on masturbation from a husband's perspective.
And I'm ALWAYS there should my lover call. I do everything I can to not leave them high and dry.

Well I'm glad to see you found all this amusing. I tho't you were bereft of your senses.

 

[Joz]

....you need to control your erections because if you don't at least try to, then you're sinning.

I wanna know how this is possible. I really do. And I also want to know how to control a sneeze or a hiccup.

Personally, my views on sex obviously differ. I don't agree with this at all. What I will say is that I see the logic for it.
.....To me, the Catholic church's teachings here make perfect sense in a logical way.

You tell me your views differ but you keep explaining how it makes sense to you. Either you believe them or you don't.

If God gives a man sperm and a woman an egg and allows them to work together to form a baby, then that's the only time they should have sex.

I really hope your joking here. The Bible (oops) tells us that sex is an obligation, (for lack of a better word), to our partner. And children are NOT mentioned.
I could take this in so many directions but I think I'll just stick with this for the moment.

If that wasn't the case, then God could've given us an on/off switch for ejaculation (on when you want to impregnate, off when you only want pleasure).

When I was trying to get pregnant, I wondered why He didn't make one of my toenails turn green when I was fertile so I would know when the time was right. We kept missing. It wasn't the trying, it was the disappointment every time I hadn't gotten pregnant.

Besides, what happens when the switch malfunctions?

The fact that sperm is produced with every orgasm indicates the potential for reproduction, therefore, it should only be used for that purpose. Masturbating is only stimulating yourself in complete opposition to this principle-- God's intention -- fertilization. Plus,

What happens if a man is sterile? Is he doomed to a sexless life because he can't impregnate his wife???

sperm is living; so technically if you do not intend for it to reach the egg, then you are intentionally killing cells that have the potential to create a newborn baby.

Yeah, well eggs are discharged from a woman's body, monthly, if they aren't fertilized. How are you going to stop that?

"The median age of menarche (beginning of menstruation) is about 12 in our society. The median age of menopause (the point at which a woman has not had a period for one year) is about 51. So a woman can expect to menstruate for 39-40 years."
http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/iisite/media/01-11-05-DetroitFreePress-Harlow.htm

 

[kurtsprincess]

The fact that sperm is produced with every orgasm indicates the potential for reproduction, therefore, it should only be used for that purpose.

I have yet to produce sperm when I orgasm, therefore, does that mean I can masturbate any time I want? :happy2:

Masturbating is only stimulating yourself in complete opposition to this principle-- God's intention -- fertilization. Plus, sperm is living; so technically if you do not intend for it to reach the egg, then you are intentionally killing cells that have the potential to create a newborn baby.

Oooops...........what happens after a woman reaches the age where she is no longer producing eggs for fertilization.......which according to the above logic, is the only reason for having sex? Did God intend us to quit having sex just because we are no longer able to procreate?

Goodness.........I certainly hope all that trying to make babies when I was younger has helped me to bond with my husband so we can continue to tolerate each other after we've gone beyond the stage of being able to procreate.

I guess you guys can see that I don't buy into all this "having sex is for procreating" logic. Not only that, what about all the guys that masturbate as a means of helping to procreate (sperm banks).

I think God designed the ability to have orgasms to serve many purposes (short list).......procreating, bonding, pleasure, stress relief, headache relief, racking up brownie points, and because ............ it's just downright FUN!!!!! :happy2:

 

[Avatar4321]

I think God designed the ability to have orgasms to serve many purposes (short list).......procreating, bonding, pleasure, stress relief, headache relief, racking up brownie points, and because ............ it's just downright FUN!!!!! :happy2:

Its fun huh? Good to know. Im sure ill find out someday:-D

 

[Nienna]

Female Subjugation

God to Eve (Genesis):
"I shall give you great labor in childbearing; with labor you will bear children. You will desire your husband, BUT HE WILL BE YOUR MASTER."

The curse of Eve...I think this is one of the most interesting verses in the Bible. I have spent a lot of time thinking about it.

In discussing the subject of female subjugation, we first have to note that, in the Bible, it is not ALL women who are subjugated to ALL men. It is only wives who are put under their husbands.

It is clear that women have equal WORTH to men. "So God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him, male and female, He created them." (Gen 1:27) And again, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). Throughout the Bible, women have held positions of honor and even of authority. For instance, Deborah was a judge of Israel. Men and women both prophesied. Jesus appeared first to women when he rose from the dead.

Husbands and Wives Part of God's curse on Eve was "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen 3:16b) The curse came true, of course. All around us, we hear of women desiring greater intimacy with their husbands, but the husbands seem to have their own agenda: bringing home the bacon, time with the guys, sports, etc. (Darin, dear, I'm not talking about YOU! ) This can be directly related to Adam's curse, "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it, all the days of your life" (Gen 3:17b).

In the Garden, before sin entered the world, Adam had nothing to do but oversee some peaceful animals, explore, and pick fruit whenever he was hungry. Everything was very good and easy, except that Adam was lonely. Ladies, we've all known men who think they are God's gift to women. But the truth is, women are God's gift to men. Eve was specially created to be a companion and a partner to Adam, to fill his loneliness. She was made from a rib, not a cranial plate, nor a metatarsal. Not above or below, but beside her husband. Then they screwed it all up.

After they sinned, they were punished. Adam had a new job. He now had to provide. He had to focus on survival; he didn't have time for all the long walks, devoting all his attention to his wife. He had to work hard to keep them alive. That naturally left Eve in a lurch. She was created to be Adam's companion, and she still possessed the desire to be with him, to be intimate. Thus her unfulfilled "desire for [her] husband."

But, Adam was tasked with providing sustenance for his family. With greater responsibility comes greater authority. If Adam had to provide for Eve, it only makes sense that she should help him in any way she could. Otherwise, she would be hindering the continuation of her own life. So, instead of sitting back and admiring Adam's creativity in naming animals, she had to fetch him some water. Adam was busy, providing for her. I really have to point out that Adam wasn't told to sit under a tree and order Eve to hoe faster. HE was the one who was told to hoe. The ONLY reason he had greater authority was because he had greater responsibility. Nowhere does God excuse a man's selfishness.

So the inequality in authority between a husband and a wife (NOT all men and all women) stems directly from the inequality of responsibility. It is not because women are WORTH less than men in the eyes of God.

 

[Nienna]

If I were to look at this as a Christian, and I mean a hardcore Christian, I would probably say that masturbation is wrong. I would also say that sex outside of marriage and within marriage (with the exception of reproduction) is wrong as well. Obviously, I don't feel that way personally, but it makes sense that if every time a man orgasms, he has the potential to impregnate a woman. Those are living cells, therefore, if they are not directed towards reproduction, they are being wasted and potential life is being destroyed.

Oh you poor guy! Poor, poor guy! That was NOT Biblical! Read Song of Songs (Song of Solomon). In this book, you cannot separate the ideas of love, sex, and pleasure. They are all entwined and intermingled. Jeesh! No wonder you were turned off of Christianity.

Also... "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother, and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" (Gen 2: 23-24). The REASON for sexual intercourse is to be bonded as husband and wife. It is obviously pleasurable, and obviously can lead to procreation, but the REASON for sex is to symbolize and solidify the bond between husband and wife.

 

[Nienna]

Are you saying Christ advocated masturbation...

unclear

or sex for pleasure?

ABSOLUTELY! Within marriage.