For Arabian and Others

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Markainion, May 28, 2005.

  1. Markainion
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    Markainion Member

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    I got this quote below from a book that I have been reading. It relates to how Jesus changed the world. It’s not from any holy text, so any commits are exceptable. I especially want Arabian to respond to this or make a strong counter argument against it.

    One must be true to Christ… What you don’t understand is that it is possible to be a atheist, it is possible not to know whether God exist, or why, and yet does not believe that man does not live in a state of nature but in history, and that history that we know it began with Christ, and Christ Gospel is the Foundation. Now what is history? It is the centuries of systemic exploration of the riddle of death, with the view of overcoming death. That’s why people discover mathematical infinity and electromagnetic waves, that’s why they write symphonies. Now, you can’t advance in this direction without a certain faith. You can’t make such discoveries without spiritual equipment. And the basic element of this equipment is the Gospels.

    What are they? To began with, love of ones’ neighbor, which is the supreme form of vital energy. Once it fills the heart of man it has to overflow and spend itself. And then the two basic ideals of modern man-without them he is unthinkable-the idea of free personality and the idea of life and sacrifice.

    Mind you, all this is still extraordinarily new. There was no history in this sense among the ancients. They had blood and beastliness and cruelty and pockmarked Caligula who had no idea of how inferior the system of slavery is. They had boastful dead eternity of bronze monument and marble columns. It was not until after the coming of Christ that time and man could breath freely. It wasn’t until after Him that man began to live at home in history, while the work toward the conquest of death is full swing: he dies sharing in this work.

    Quote from Doctor Zhivago by Boris Pasternak.
     
  2. Arabian
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    Arabian Member

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    Okay as you wish friend,,,,
    Actually I wont say anything against the main thought you said,, am all right with you,, but I need to you know make some comments or even correction but before I start I will say some thing for you,,,
    Our prophet Muhammed PBUH said,,
    The prophets before me,, is like who made a great and wonderful house it was perfect,, except a place for a block[[[[[,, and every one basses or see the house was wondering cant this house be perfect by fill the place of this block,, and I” Muhammad PBUH” came to fill this block,,

    SO Islam do believe in all religion,, cause the prophet Muhammad PBUH came to complete what other prophet came with,, end of the chain as we said,,
    But what you say about Jesus and that he is the only salvation and this stuff, then what about people before him,, how did they live,, in what they believe,,, and he came to make people free,, free from what,,
    Let me tell you something do you know about the Christian in Egypt and how the roman deal with them and humiliated them,, they left the country and lived in the desert cause they wanted to keep their religion,, when I heard this story I really respected them so much and said how they were agreat people they left every thing to keep their religion they fight and didn’t surrender,, but you know who saved them from this humiliation and who gave them back their life in their country not in the desert,, muslim did soo ,, Amro Ebn El-Ass you heard about him ,, is the one who did soo,, and as we see now how Christian live in Egypt,, I think we live side by side cause its our land all cause we all Egyptian not we are Christian and muslims,, so islam came to gather not to devide,, if you are interested about the history of muslims and you wanna know the true of their campaign,, you can read the qur\an and a trusted book in history,,
    Another thing bro ,, \ctu\lly I don’t remember the whole hadith but the main meaning

    That allah says ,, me and the mankind and the Jin in a great matter I create and they worship another ,,, I feed them and they thank another one,, I send them my mercy on the earth and they send me their sins to the heaven,, Iactually I don’t remember the rest but I will try to search for it to resume it,,
    And now my brother if Jesus is the son of allah that means that allah is a creature,, not god,, so jesus too isn’t a god,,

    But how could the one who create you is your father ,, it cant be,,,

    And another thing each religion came believe in the previous religion and the previous prophet and jesus believed in mosa and Muhammad PBUthem believed in all prophets before him cause he came to continue the message of allah,,, and there are some religions or cults doesn’t believe in any religion or message except it message ,,

    So you can distinguish between the message which came allah(it came part by part to mankind and they all continue ech other ‘we cant say that allah is mistaken or he send this prophet bu fault,,, it’s the same as you cant say that the sun wont shine tomorrow’),, and other message which isn’t from allah ,, but people made it up,,
    And also the qur’an is the only book that no one made any insertion or update on it,,,

    That’s all friend if you wanna talk more about anything you can contact me on the messenger
     
  3. Markainion
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    Markainion Member

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    Question: based on the statement above Ala saved the christen from the Romans but the state religion of the Roman before its collapse was Christian, and the Eastern Roman Empire which became the Byzantium Empire was also Christen. The Moslem conquered mostly what was a Christian region. So your statement must mean that Ala must have believed that Christians at this time were corrupt.

    Second question: What did the prophet Muhammad do that made him greather than Jesus. Jesus based on Christian belief open the path to heaven through his death; making it possible for all mankind to return to heaven. With the only exception being those that truly transgressed against the will of god, which for the most part is limited to only a small portion of humans, which are truly evil. (Ok, some Christians are going to say they need to be baptized to go to heaven. Mormons, the religion I was raised as, go to great effort to baptize their un-baptized ancestors. A strange religious practice that I don’t even understand)

    Based on what I have read from your post. Muhammad completed the scripture or perfected the religion. Joseph Smith the Mormon profit stated a similar claim, except that he didn’t claim to perfect the scriptures but to bring about additional knowledge from God, which is a few addition scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctor and Convents. These scriptures are similar to the Bible and only seek to clarify a few thing found in the bible. So Arabian if you have read the Bible and the Koran, where do they differ, and to what extent. I am asking in religions philosophy not historical accuracy.

    Last statement and a key insight in how I was raised, most Mormon’s believe that their aim in life is to become like God and Jesus, and Mormon’s believe that they are two separate individuals; God is the greatest followed by Jesus, but they are similar in nature. All the humans that live on earth according to Mormon beliefs can at some stage in their development (we are on the second phase, first stage God created our spiritual self) become at least to a lesser extent like God and Jesus.

    The reason for this goes to what is key to this belief, even though few Mormons think about it, is that all mankind’s spiritual self is based of the essence of what God is created from. It is claimed that we have existed from the beginning, which is called intelligence, and it states that there is many different levels of intelligence, and God is the most intelligent of use all.

    Now I have never been the most devout Mormon and the members of my family that are devout members would never want me to be a spokes person for the church. So don’t take what I say as anything more that a few things that I have read in Mormon Scripture and few teaching that I have picked up when I was younger and a little more devoted. I still believe in God, but I am curios what Ala teaches, and why so many Moslems are devoted to him, and to all the other Christian that might read this, what they are devoted to God as well. This isn’t a question of faith, just wondering what makes so many people of faith, devoted to their god.
     
  4. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    Mark, first, to your Dr. Zhivago quotes. I think that, while the admonition to love our neighbors is key, it is overshadowed by the greatest commandment (according to Jesus): to love God with everything we have.

    Second, as to the paragraph of yours quoted above. What makes me devoted to God is that God was devoted to bringing me into a right, loving relationship with Him. While I was powerless to do anything for myself, He died to pay the atonement for my sins. That show of love is what compels me to devote myself to Him.
     
  5. Arabian
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    Arabian Member

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    is ala ia Allah,, did i guessed right,,,
    actually I think you are mistaken,, if you read the history of Egypt in this part and how the roman did to the Egyptian Christians you wont say soo,,,

    the Islam came to the whole universe before these opens no one in these parts know about the Islam,,
    let me tell you something to you,, how was the open like,,
    1st thing they proposal to this region to enter the Islam,, if they refuse ,, they proposal that its okay to keep your religion but allow the ambassador of Islam to enter to spread the religion to who want to enter the religion,, and bay the jizya,, if they said noo,, then it’s the war,,
    once in Omar Ebn Alkhatab “the khalifa” one of his ambassador didn't do this step when entering the region,, and he made a war before giving them these proposals,, so people of this region sent to Omar Ebn Alkhatab about what his ambassador did,, do u know what he did,,
    he ordered his ambassador to get out from the region “though he entered it” and ask its people the proposals again,,, “did America did something like that before get out from the iraq when they didn't found nuclear weapon’ anyway

    another thing have you ever heard that Muslim when entering a region humiliate its people or even burn or destroy church or the places of worship as the roman did or as what they did in Andalusia,, from burning and destroying the mosques,,
    Muslims were building a great civilization in any place they enter,, can u deny that,,,



    actually though i talked so much about what christian says about Jesus and this strange story,, any way if u read my article will u will se at the end of it part about what i do believe about allah's sun,,
    In our religion no different in all prophets we believe in all prophets,,

    THE COW 285

    The Messenger (Muhammad SAW) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)."

    man even their are millin of eccition of your book,, and dont say its different in the translation only,, cause we all know it differ in every thin,, in islam though there are lots of groups,, but they still have one book.....

    and all religion allah sent says that there is an end of this life heaven and hell,,,
    allah says in the qur'an
    23. Al-Mu'minûn

    115.Did you think that We had created you in play (without any purpose), and that you would not be brought back to Us?"

    116. So Exalted be Allâh, the True King, Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Lord of the Supreme Throne!

    117. And whoever invokes (or worships), besides Allâh, any other ilâh (god), of whom he has no proof, then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely! Al-Kâfirûn (the disbelievers in Allâh and in the Oneness of Allâh, polytheists, pagans, idolaters, etc.) will not be successful.



    Based on what I have read from your post. Muhammad completed the scripture or perfected the religion. Joseph Smith the Mormon profit stated a similar claim, except that he didn’t claim to perfect the scriptures but to bring about additional knowledge from God, which is a few addition scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctor and Convents. These scriptures are similar to the Bible and only seek to clarify a few thing found in the bible. So Arabian if you have read the Bible and the Koran, where do they differ, and to what extent. I am asking in religions philosophy not historical accuracy.

    yeah bro but did u read the qur'an to compare between it and this book i dont know anything about it,,,
    i guess not ,, i think you should read it 1st,,

    http://www.islamiccommunitycenter.com/MiraclesofQuran.asp
    http://www.alinaam.org.za/dquraan/mquraan1.htm
    http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_02.php#2a
    http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/
    http://www.beconvinced.com/en/main.php

    some links to more know ,, hope you read them

    another thing Allah says
    Sura women 4
    verse 82
    Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

    So can you find any contradiction or error in the qur’an ,, on the contrary the bible had updated more than hundred times and there are also lots oof version of it,,,

    And all prophets came to resume what the previous prophet came to say to spread the Islam,,,

    I hear you say no the Christianity,,
    Listen the word Islam mean submission to all the order of all,, and that all what all religion came to spread,, right ,, then all the religion is the Islam,,
    Lets take one example the jews ,, it’s a name of people not a religion,, Christian,, came from Christ and he is a messenger,, right,, Islam is submission,, so its for all people not a special part and its not to worship a human,,

    think how could be there more than one god ,, and if there are more than one god,, how they will judge the whole universe one for white and one for black,, or one for the west and one for the east,, or one for ….
    How it could be ,, and if there are more than one god could it be that they never dispute before or struggle or………

    According to what you say,, that one day we will evolve to be gods one day,, that means that there are millions of gods cause we had antecedent,,,,

    And Allah isn’t a creature to ask how created Allah,,, so he is one no father no mother so no son,, CAUSE HE ISNT A CREATURE,,



    .[ QUOTE]Now I have never been the most devout Mormon and the members of my family that are devout members would never want me to be a spokes person for the church. So don’t take what I say as anything more that a few things that I have read in Mormon Scripture and few teaching that I have picked up when I was younger and a little more devoted. I still believe in God, but I am curios what Ala teaches, and why so many Moslems are devoted to him, and to all the other Christian that might read this, what they are devoted to God as well. This isn’t a question of faith, just wondering what makes so many people of faith, devoted to their god.[/QUOTE]

    BRO I WILL say another few things to you okays

    1st question bro,, who created you??
    Who gave you those eyes???
    Who and who and whoo?
    Lots of who,,
    Allah gave you all of that,, Allah created the sun for you created the day and night for you to work ,and sleep,, Allah created man and woman,, Allah created the whole nature for you,, and you don’t wanna thank him,,
    But thank him how?/
    This is the question,, Allah gave you the mind to think with it to know the right way from the wrong way and he told u the right way,,

    And what ever was your intelligent u wont reach the God intelligent cause we cant describe Allah so we cant measure his intelligent CAUSE HE ISNT A CREATURE,,
    And Jesus wasn’t a scientist,, he was a prophet,, and if this theory is right then the whole world should be a scientist,, and this is not right,,
    Messengers weren’t scientists,, and even scientist didn't reach to know how the universe Allah made work,,
    Can a scientist stop the sun from shining every day??/
    Lots of question needed to be answer???
    This world will stop or wont exist without Allah
    And sorry for replying u late
     
  6. nosarcasm
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    nosarcasm Active Member

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    what is your attitude towards atheists just wondering.

    What is the teaching about them ?
     
  7. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    Who exactly are you asking?

    And does anyone understand what anyone is saying here? I dont.
     
  8. Markainion
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    Markainion Member

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    Arabian


    I have read some of what I guess you would call Geneses form this link from the Quron, from this link.
    http://www.equran.org/qrn/view/trans/mohsin/2.html

    I figure it only fair to read some of your scripture if I want you to read some of mine. The below links give you a source to read the Pearl of Great Price from. These scripture for the most part is based on Geneses. The only part of the Bible Mormon translates some of the Bible with. It’s the part of the Mormon scriptures dealing with detailed accounts of the nature of the universe.

    They funny thing about reading some of your links is that your basing it on science, and how Mohammad was able to understand thing about the earth that wasn’t known at the time of the writing of the Quron. The Mormon scriptures have similar accounts, for example scientist have found many planet in other solar systems in recent years, Mormons have believed this for over a 170 years. Also Mormon’s don’t believe time is a constant in the universe, more and more scientific evidence has proven that time varies based on speed.

    Just a though, please read the links below, or at least the scriptures I have included. I will put some more time into reading the Quron as well. Reading scriptures takes time and I haven’t found too much within the Quron, as of yet that I relate too, but maybe there is some scripture that you know of that you can point out, that I will.


    Book of Moses

    http://scriptures.lds.org/moses/1

    35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

    37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

    38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.


    39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and deternal elife of man.

    Book of Abraham

    http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/3

    19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

    20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

    21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I crule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

    22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

    23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

    24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

    25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

    26 And they who akeep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

    27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will dsend the first.

    28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first bestate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
     
  9. Arabian
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    Arabian Member

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    hi friend
    i wanna tell you something to know that im not against your script ,,,
    i think i told you that before,,, our religion believe in all messenger Allah sent,,
    cause they all came with the message of allah,, to complete each other ,, for the good of man kind,,and the end of this chain is prophet muhammed PBUH,, and dont ask why he is the last prophet its like you are saying why is this guy is the youngest member in his family,, can you control his order in his family,, allah wanted him to be the youngest one and its over,, but that doesnt mean that the other members are bad or a liar or.......,,,
    he came only as the end of the chain,, cause every thing have a end right friend,,,
    and it isnt the other member faults if their grand sons changed the well after they left,,
     
  10. Markainion
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    Markainion Member

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    You know Arabian this has been fun, but I know now both of us can send scriptures to one another until the end of time, and neither would make a dent in one another’s faith. I think we both know it will take the will of God to make such a change. The funny thing is the more I read of the Quron the more I realized this. It’s the similarities not the difference between Mormons and Muslims that creates this divide. Neither of use should temp to change the other faith, for we both no it is the greatest sin to deny God and his personal revelations that he has given both of use.

    If Allah reveled something about the Muslim faith to me, hopefully I accepted it. I say the same for you if God revealed something to you; for hopefully you took it as well. I hope we can live in peace and have learned some respect for each other.
     

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