Food for though: What is democracy? What is freedom?

[777]

I am not a democrat, republican or even an independent. I, as a foreigner, am simply an observer of political life in the United States and other countries. I have no ax to grind and I am not motivated by left or right wing conspiracies. I am not without opinions, though.

A statement by President Bush compelled me to write.

Surely many of you by now have heard him say “They (the terrorists) hate us for our freedom”. This argument is weak at best. Canada and Sweden, just to name a few, are free, democratic countries. No one is attacking them for their freedom. I think it is time for this Administration to start looking at the real causes of the hatred that some countries express towards the USA. If the argument is “America is a superpower” it doesn’t either automatically mean that America should be hated. It is what is done with that power that may cause the intifadas against the USA and its interests.

I am also perplexed about a person in America being called unpatriotic if he criticizes the current administration. In a healthy democracy criticism should not be construed as unpatriotic unless it is totally off the mark and false. Even the leader is a human and makes mistakes and may not always know what is the best for his country. Nor being a leader makes one above being corrupt or immoral in one’s actions. Power breeds corruption in too many cases. The times become scary when the citizens follow the leader blindly. Therein is lost the soul of democracy.

I would like to hear other people’s points on concepts of democracy and the causes of hatred and distrust that America is facing around the world. I would like honest, open-minded discussion on the subject.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by 777
think it is time for this Administration to start looking at the real causes of the hatred that some countries express towards the USA.

As a foreigner and given the tone of your thread, I for one do not care what you think. Where are you from? I doubt you'll answer. It is easy to stand off and fire missles.

I am also perplexed...

I am sorry for your handicap.

I would like to hear other people’s points on concepts of democracy and the causes of hatred and distrust that America is facing around the world. I would like honest, open-minded discussion on the subject.

What you would like and what you are going to get are two different things. You come on here bashing a country you apparently know nothing about and want us to provide you points for your argument. You bring nothing here to back up your claim and hold it out to be some kind of fact - when in reality it appears your uninformed opinion.

Had you come on here with a different attitude, I am sure you would have found some discussion, but predict Gnashing of teeth against you.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
You bring nothing here to back up your claim and hold it out to be some kind of fact - when in reality it appears your uninformed opinion.

Had you come on here with a different attitude, I am sure you would have found some discussion, but predict Gnashing of teeth against you.

You failed to dispute one item 777 mentioned.

 

[777]

I am from Finland. I particularly wrote at the beginning that I am not without opinions. I did not write my piece pretending it to be a factual piece.

President Bush's statement, however, is illogical (they hate us for our freedom). Finland is a free, democratic country, too, and is not a terrorist target. I would like you all to look deeper into the souls of the current and past administrations. The truth is not as simple as America solely
being hated for its freedom. So then, what is the bigger truth?

You stated that as a foreigner I know nothing of this country.

I came here when I was 19. I went to college here and married an American. I am in my 30s. I know more of this country than you would like to imagine.

Lastly, my thread is not about firing missiles. It's about HONEST and OPEN MINDED discussion about the state of the affairs.

Thank you

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by 777
I am not a democrat, republican or even an independent. I, as a foreigner, am simply an observer of political life in the United States and other countries. I have no ax to grind and I am not motivated by left or right wing conspiracies. I am not without opinions, though.

Welcome to the board.

A statement by President Bush compelled me to write.

Surely many of you by now have heard him say “They (the terrorists) hate us for our freedom”. This argument is weak at best. Canada and Sweden, just to name a few, are free, democratic countries. No one is attacking them for their freedom. I think it is time for this Administration to start looking at the real causes of the hatred that some countries express towards the USA. If the argument is “America is a superpower” it doesn’t either automatically mean that America should be hated. It is what is done with that power that may cause the intifadas against the USA and its interests.

Maybe it's because the USA doesn't just 'live' a free life like Canada, Sweden and Finland, but they ALSO fight for the rights of others to enjoy the same. Freedom comes with a cost and Americans are aware of that. And even still our country is willing to pay that price so that other countries may enjoy the same freedoms.

I am also perplexed about a person in America being called unpatriotic if he criticizes the current administration. In a healthy democracy criticism should not be construed as unpatriotic unless it is totally off the mark and false. Even the leader is a human and makes mistakes and may not always know what is the best for his country. Nor being a leader makes one above being corrupt or immoral in one’s actions. Power breeds corruption in too many cases. The times become scary when the citizens follow the leader blindly. Therein is lost the soul of democracy.

Someone isn't labeled unpatriotic simply because they voice dissention with the current administration. Those labeled unpatriotic or un-American are usually those who go over the edge and put soldiers lives or American citizens lives in danger. Do you have specific examples you would care to cite to make this discussion clearer?

I would like to hear other people’s points on concepts of democracy and the causes of hatred and distrust that America is facing around the world. I would like honest, open-minded discussion on the subject.

Yes, media. Most that claim to 'hate' America are uninformed and simply follow the crowd and believe the crap that the media spews forth.

You'll find no stronger nation that is willing to go to such lengths to protect and help other countries. And for that we are hated. Go figure.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Tyrants hate the very sight of freedom. They don't want their people exposed to it, because they will want it. They'd rather snuff out freedom, so their people don't pine for it. It's simple really.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The current leaders in the muslim world got there through brutality. The thought of having to keep their power through good public service, sound economic policy, and democratic elections, scares the bejesus out of them, or the bemohammed, whatever the case may be. This is simple too.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by 777
A statement by President Bush compelled me to write.

Surely many of you by now have heard him say “They (the terrorists) hate us for our freedom”. This argument is weak at best. Canada and Sweden, just to name a few, are free, democratic countries. No one is attacking them for their freedom. I think it is time for this Administration to start looking at the real causes of the hatred that some countries express towards the USA. If the argument is “America is a superpower” it doesn’t either automatically mean that America should be hated. It is what is done with that power that may cause the intifadas against the USA and its interests.

I don't see how our past transgressions could have incited soo much hatred. America has made many mistakes in our short history but we have given back to the world much more than we have taken.

I am also perplexed about a person in America being called unpatriotic if he criticizes the current administration. In a healthy democracy criticism should not be construed as unpatriotic unless it is totally off the mark and false.

You answered your own question on this one. Many of the "Anti-American" labels are used for people that make wild allegations like Bush is hitler or Bush lied about everything then fail to state an actual lie that he has made. They simply work to drive a wedge between the American people thus further dividing the country. Dissent and difference of opinion are one thing when a valid arguement is raised. Lies and intentional deceit upon the American people that harm the country earn them the UnAmerican label.

Even the leader is a human and makes mistakes and may not always know what is the best for his country. Nor being a leader makes one above being corrupt or immoral in one’s actions. Power breeds corruption in too many cases. The times become scary when the citizens follow the leader blindly. Therein is lost the soul of democracy.

Very true. Many of the things Bush has done have not been to my liking. Illegal immigrant situation. MEdicare entitlement giveaway. On a whole though i agree with my presidentmore often than not. Those that follow him blindly are as ignorant as those that hate him blindly.

I would like to hear other people’s points on concepts of democracy and the causes of hatred and distrust that America is facing around the world. I would like honest, open-minded discussion on the subject.

I feel alot of it has to do with the Liberal Media's Agenda to return Communism to world power. They would like nothing better than to have America become a welfare state giving all of our hard earned money to the poor thus crushing the American Spirit and falling in line with the EU. Many in Europe further this sentiment as it makes them look superior if America Fails.

The hatred from Islamic countries is obvious. Islam promotes at its fundamentalist roots to destroy all those who do not accept Ala as the one true good. Some merely think of this as a passage of the Koran. Others (terrorists, totalitarian regimes, etc) follow these inscriptions to the letter and have taken their beliefs to a more physical level. America is merely the biggest guy on the block right now. The USSR was the target when they existed due to their lack of Belief in "the one true god". Now the US is hated for our "lack of belief". We are merely the biggest guys on the block. If Sweden or Finland were the Superpowers of the world, they would be the targets for not promoting Islam.

It all comes back to being on top. When your on top, everyone wants to knock ya off. Its human nature to e jealous of someone elses success. However, it defines a person based on the actions they make after seeing that success. Do they live to destroy someones success or do they strive to achieve the same kind of success through hard work of their own? Thus defines a persons soul as well as a nation's.

 

[Zhukov]

Surely many of you by now have heard him say “They (the terrorists) hate us for our freedom”. This argument is weak at best. Canada and Sweden, just to name a few, are free, democratic countries. No one is attacking them for their freedom.

That's because someone else is in the way.

Islamists might say, 'wait your turn.'

 

[dilloduck]

Originally posted by 777
I am from Finland. I particularly wrote at the beginning that I am not without opinions. I did not write my piece pretending it to be a factual piece.

President Bush's statement, however, is illogical (they hate us for our freedom). Finland is a free, democratic country, too, and is not a terrorist target. I would like you all to look deeper into the souls of the current and past administrations. The truth is not as simple as America solely
being hated for its freedom. So then, what is the bigger truth?

You stated that as a foreigner I know nothing of this country.

I came here when I was 19. I went to college here and married an American. I am in my 30s. I know more of this country than you would like to imagine.

Lastly, my thread is not about firing missiles. It's about HONEST and OPEN MINDED discussion about the state of the affairs.

Thank you

Wecome to the board!
The number of people who truly hate Americans is unknown. For all we know, there may be more people who like Americans than hate them. I wouldn't expect another country to have monthly "we love americans " parade however if they did they would go unnoticed. The media loves to bring the Anti-American protests to the forefront because it is NOT THE NORM. Average things are not news. The more havoc the media can create the more people pay attention TO THE MEDIA for information. Then the media has the power to sway people with thier integrity (or lack there of). The truth has often been lost in the method that the media uses to inform.

You have lived in a foreign country. Was all the news that you received there the truth or at times did you feel as if reality got bent or even broken? Foriegners are also subject to the biases of thier own media. I am sure that foreigners have many different reasons for not liking the policies of whatever administration is currently in power. Even we as Americans do !

If you would do a poll and ask people the first country that came to mind when the word "Freedom" was mentioned, which country would be named most often? The United States represents and symbolizes freedom more than any other democracy. We therefore get the "hate" from those who would like to take it and those whose existence is threatened by it. Don't feel left out. They would like to take freedom away from every democracy in the world. Yours too !

 

[Annie]

posted by DilloThe number of people who truly hate Americans is unknown. For all we know, there may be more people who like Americans than hate them. I wouldn't expect another country to have monthly "we love americans " parade however if they did they would go unnoticed.

So true. Impossible to really tell what anyone abroad thinks nowadays, it's very popular to say, 'I hate Americans' or 'I'm fine with Americans, it's all about GWB.' Anyways, it's really nothing to us.

A commentary though, while major US pages might have a page devoted to foreign news, it's rare that the articles are more than 3 paragraphs. On the other hand, go to the Guardian, Telegraph, Le Monde, any German paper, Canadian paper, etc., what do you find? Article after article about the US. Its government officials, its policies, its culture, etc. So we might not be 'liked' but we sure are studied!

 

[777]

I would like to thank you all for your open-minded and though- provoking contribution to this thread, minus the reply from HGROKIT, instead of blasting me for my views and opinions.

 

[Annie]

Originally posted by 777
I would like to thank you all for your open-minded and though- provoking contribution to this thread, minus the reply from HGROKIT, instead of blasting me for my views and opinions.

We're pretty open minded and thoughtful here. So, discuss away.

 

[William Joyce]

Triple 7, it is simply a lie that anyone hates anyone else for their democracy and freedom. Muslims hate us because we trample their sacred lands with military ware (Saudi Arabian sites) and fund the genocide of Arabs via Israel to the tune of billions. Add to that Iraq War I and II. You're right --- I don't see Muslims attacking countries that are democracies but have nothing to do with the war against them.

Both our media and our political machinery are solidly under Jewish control. Thus, nobody will bother to look past the government's lies.

 

[pegwinn]

Originally posted by William Joyce
Triple 7, it is simply a lie that anyone hates anyone else for their democracy and freedom. Muslims hate us because we trample their sacred lands with military ware (Saudi Arabian sites) and fund the genocide of Arabs via Israel to the tune of billions. Add to that Iraq War I and II. You're right --- I don't see Muslims attacking countries that are democracies but have nothing to do with the war against them.

Both our media and our political machinery are solidly under Jewish control. Thus, nobody will bother to look past the government's lies.

You lie like a rug

 

[pegwinn]

777 Hi,

Look the short version is that Finland is a plucky little country that befuddled the soviets. But, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. simply don't swing a big enough bat to do as we do. We are free and powerfull. With power comes responsibility. Some call it destiny, some call it neocon, some call it a waste. But the fact is we've done far more good than harm. And the only reason the war on terror is going on this long is that we are allowing it to. If we wanted to, we could end it in a year and turn the ME into the worlds largest valet parking lot.

We are not perfect, but we are the best.

 

[Avatar4321]

Democracy is rule by the people. Meaning the majority rules. The left contrary to their claims. If the majority ruled then gay marriage would have no chance. But they want to force it on people. they dont want democracy. Heck they dont even want a republic.

 

[Man of 1951]

Good thought provoking post 777

I for one believe it was rhetoric for Pres. Bush to say that they attack those who love freedom. Hatred for America has grown a lot through the past decades, and i find this is because America did incite a lot of violence in other countries. For one the first democracy in the Middle East (then again if you consider Iran part of the middle east) was in Iran, which Prime Minister Mossedeq was democratically elected. Unfortunately, in 1953 the CIA overthrew him and installed the Shah (King/Monarch) who ruled with an iron fist against those who opposed him. This gave Iranians reason to hate, which has ascended through time to the present (although the real reason of hate has faded off to be filled with rhetoric from the Mula's). Since that year of 1953, the American government has conducted many acts which killed innocents. This has created hatred. Some hatred no doubt can come from jealousy to the many rich ppl, and the idea of being so free and being able to live without fear (a crazy thought of living without fear in some places of the world). This mixture of jealousy and hatred because of past occurances can cause doubt and mistrust, which is very often but not always exploited by religous leaders or political leaders.
As such, it seems illogical to ignore past events and solely blame the hate on the leaders. If one learns from the past, one must be careful in their actions, and think of the consequences. I'm not saying the Iraq war, which i don't agree with, is considered as one of misdeeds, im just saying that if you talk to the families who first handedly experienced "shock and awe" i'm sure a new brand of reasoning for hatred has emerged. '

Now im just babbling so ill stop now.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by William Joyce
Triple 7, it is simply a lie that anyone hates anyone else for their democracy and freedom. Muslims hate us because we trample their sacred lands with military ware (Saudi Arabian sites) and fund the genocide of Arabs via Israel to the tune of billions. Add to that Iraq War I and II. You're right --- I don't see Muslims attacking countries that are democracies but have nothing to do with the war against them.

Both our media and our political machinery are solidly under Jewish control. Thus, nobody will bother to look past the government's lies.

No william. Tyrants don't want their people to see the freedoms others have in the world. We're a threat to them by existing. Also, free economies grow, giving us a huge economic advantage over the shrinking economies which exist under tyranny, and lead to genocide inside those regimes. That's another reason our very existence threatens them.

 

[Man of 1951]

Although i don't completely agree with William, i do not believe that our existance is a threat to them because we're free. THe American government does fund Israel as if it's its own. And Israel does commit assassinations and many other actions condemned by the United Nations. The American government has supported Saddam while he still oppressed his ppl, and allowed him to use mustard gas against Iranian soldiers. The American government does support the Saudi regime which is just as bad or perhaps worse than Saddams regime. Remember Saudi Arabia is lead by a Royal family, thus a monarchy thus a dictatorship. The American government has used cluster bombs over iraqi cities and others. Cluster bombs which can look like little toys to children who kick them and then won't be able to kick again. Yes the tyrants who run these nations do exploit these hatreds for their own benefit, but the hate that exists should not go unnoticed, especially the reasons to those hatreds. The American government has toppled many free nations, against the will of the ppl, to serve their interest. That causes hatred, not against the ideal of freedom, but causes hatred to the countries who commit the crimes.
I say American government, because it is they who make the decisions, i have no ill will at all towards the civilians.