Florida Man Invokes ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law After Shooting Fellow Pizza Customer

You, apparently have more information than I. If he did indeed lie, I would have to agree with you. I have not found that in anything this thread linked.

From what I have understood, two stupid people happened to be standing in a line when one instigated an exchange that led to one physically threatening the other. I don't know. If you have any further information, please link it.

Post #7

He mentioned that he thought White had an object in his hand, then backed off that when officers pressed him
We read the same thing. Perhaps you forgot this?

Police said the incident unfolded about 4 p.m. inside the Little Caesars, 3463 Fourth St. N, after Randall White, 49, got mad about his service.

Another man in line, Michael Jock, 52, of St. Petersburg admonished White.

That "prompted them to exchange words and it became a shoving match," said police spokesman Mike Puetz.

White raised a fist...

I read that. He first claimed he "thought" there was something in his hand and then changed his story. In my world, that is giving false evidence which is pretty close to lying as you can get.
 
Yep. I've been telling everyone for the last six months or so that Florida is not a good place for a vacation. I hope more people do the same.

yeah, they should go to Detroit or somewhere like that..you live in florida you should move it's so bad..Or you are just a hero savior?
Why don't you move out of the US?

you first then I might think about it, write on here when you do, bon voyage
 
We read the same thing. Perhaps you forgot this?

Police said the incident unfolded about 4 p.m. inside the Little Caesars, 3463 Fourth St. N, after Randall White, 49, got mad about his service.

Another man in line, Michael Jock, 52, of St. Petersburg admonished White.

That "prompted them to exchange words and it became a shoving match," said police spokesman Mike Puetz.

White raised a fist...

I read that. He first claimed he "thought" there was something in his hand and then changed his story. In my world, that is giving false evidence which is pretty close to lying as you can get.
Maybe, but I thought we were talking about who was stupid? Clue: consider the entire scenario.
 
A Florida man defended his decision to shoot an impatient pizza customer over the weekend, citing the state’s infamous “Stand Your Ground” law.
Michael Jock, a 52-year-old resident of St. Petersburg, was standing in line behind 49-year-old Randall White at a local Little Caesars on Sunday when Jock grew angry over White’s complaints about the speed of service. The two got began to shove one another, prompting Jock to pull out a .38 Taurus Ultralight Special Revolver that had been concealed on his person and fire twice, hitting White both times in the lower torso.
The Tampa Bay Times has more:
After the shooting, both men went outside and waited for police. Jock told officers the shooting was justified under “stand your ground,” [police spokesman Mike] Puetz said.
“He felt he was in his rights,” Puetz said. “He brought it up specifically and cited it to the officer.”
He told officers he feared for his life. He mentioned that he thought White had an object in his hand, then backed off that when officers pressed him. Florida’s “stand your ground law” says people are not required to retreat before using deadly force.

Florida Man Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Fellow Pizza Customer | ThinkProgress

I heard this case. It's not a cause of action for stand your ground. Like any self-defense using deadly force law (which stand your ground is), you have to be threatened with deadly force, which a few shoves doesn't equate to and you can't be the instigator. It sounds like either could be the instigator here!
 
We read the same thing. Perhaps you forgot this?

Police said the incident unfolded about 4 p.m. inside the Little Caesars, 3463 Fourth St. N, after Randall White, 49, got mad about his service.

Another man in line, Michael Jock, 52, of St. Petersburg admonished White.

That "prompted them to exchange words and it became a shoving match," said police spokesman Mike Puetz.

White raised a fist...

I read that. He first claimed he "thought" there was something in his hand and then changed his story. In my world, that is giving false evidence which is pretty close to lying as you can get.

Man I can't believe I am agreeing with you, don't let that happen again. But where was the threat by deadly force? It Jock was just as much the instigator as White.
 
We read the same thing. Perhaps you forgot this?

Police said the incident unfolded about 4 p.m. inside the Little Caesars, 3463 Fourth St. N, after Randall White, 49, got mad about his service.

Another man in line, Michael Jock, 52, of St. Petersburg admonished White.

That "prompted them to exchange words and it became a shoving match," said police spokesman Mike Puetz.

White raised a fist...

I read that. He first claimed he "thought" there was something in his hand and then changed his story. In my world, that is giving false evidence which is pretty close to lying as you can get.
Maybe, but I thought we were talking about who was stupid? Clue: consider the entire scenario.

I guess I'm stupid because I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 
A Florida man defended his decision to shoot an impatient pizza customer over the weekend, citing the state’s infamous “Stand Your Ground” law.
Michael Jock, a 52-year-old resident of St. Petersburg, was standing in line behind 49-year-old Randall White at a local Little Caesars on Sunday when Jock grew angry over White’s complaints about the speed of service. The two got began to shove one another, prompting Jock to pull out a .38 Taurus Ultralight Special Revolver that had been concealed on his person and fire twice, hitting White both times in the lower torso.
The Tampa Bay Times has more:
After the shooting, both men went outside and waited for police. Jock told officers the shooting was justified under “stand your ground,” [police spokesman Mike] Puetz said.
“He felt he was in his rights,” Puetz said. “He brought it up specifically and cited it to the officer.”
He told officers he feared for his life. He mentioned that he thought White had an object in his hand, then backed off that when officers pressed him. Florida’s “stand your ground law” says people are not required to retreat before using deadly force.

Florida Man Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Fellow Pizza Customer | ThinkProgress

I heard this case. It's not a cause of action for stand your ground. Like any self-defense using deadly force law (which stand your ground is), you have to be threatened with deadly force, which a few shoves doesn't equate to and you can't be the instigator. It sounds like either could be the instigator here!
"Stand Your Ground " is not the same standard as "Deadly Force".I think that that was exactly why it was legislated. I imagine you have to be reasonably sure you're being seriously physically threatened, or why else would you have to invoke it?

I am not going to read and decipher the law. If the above is essentially not true and can be bothered, let me know.
 
You guys on the right are real pussies, afraid to either mix it up in a fight or simply walk away. That is why you are not over here on the left with real men.


If you can't control your temper, you are no real man.

Once you threaten me with violence, you are in the wrong.

Do you, "real man", go around threatening to beat people like a savage anytime you don't like what they say?

I mean, is that the textbook definition of a "real man on the left"?

Defend that, "real man".

Broke back Mountain is making a lot more sense now.


Translation from "real man of the left" into standard English: "I cannot defend this...but I have to say something."
 
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Yes.

You threaten me with violence, I have the right to protect myself.
with deadly force over a raised fist? no, you don't have that right.


Of course I do.

You could be killed with one punch...or knocked unconscious limiting your ability to defend yourself from a fatal beating.

Don't be foolish...the man who raised his fist is the one in the wrong...period.

This will stand up in court every time.

no, it won't.

especially since the shooter felt he had to lie about the circumstances initially.

he's going to serve time, as he should.

not only did he put his victims life in danger, he also endangered every other person in the area with his reckless behavior.

idiocy like that should never be tolerated, let alone praised.
 
I read that. He first claimed he "thought" there was something in his hand and then changed his story. In my world, that is giving false evidence which is pretty close to lying as you can get.
Maybe, but I thought we were talking about who was stupid? Clue: consider the entire scenario.

I guess I'm stupid because I have no idea what you are trying to say.
I don't know whether it is stupidity, but if you were less doctrinaire you could even have an epiphany.
 
If you can't control your temper, you are no real man.

Once you threaten me with violence, you are in the wrong.

Do you, "real man", go around threatening to beat people like a savage anytime you don't like what they say?

I mean, is that the textbook definition of a "real man on the left"?

Defend that, "real man".

Broke back Mountain is making a lot more sense now.


Translation from "real man of the left" into standard English: "I cannot defend this...but I have to say something."

I would reply to this, but you might not like what I have to say and shoot me. Must be getting cold up on Brokeback Mountain, you should put some jeans on under those chaps.
 
Sneezing in one's general direction - Gunplay?
Giving someone a nasty look - Gunplay?
Cutting someone off in traffic - Gunplay?
Swearing - Gunplay?
Dog pooping on your lawn - Gunplay?

So many nuisances ..so few bullets.
 
It's basic criminal law: you do not have the right to self defense if you're the aggressor.

I'm white. If I call a black guy a "N-------", and he punches me, I doubt very much that he'd ever be found guilty of assualt.

Same thing.

Both these guys are numbnuts. If you have a problem with service talk to the manager. The guy behind you can't do anything about it.

The first guy doesn't work and play well with others. Give him an F and move on with your life.

What's really sad is that this escalated into ANYTHING. You're standing in line to get a freaking pizza. What is WRONG with people?

I pulled into a parking spot once around Christmas, and was confronted by this idiot who thought it was HIS. I started laughing and said, "Would you like to be arrested right in front of your children? I can arrange that!"

He backed off.

What a dope.
 
I think that ThinkProgress is not the best source one can use, but I will assume it happened like it has been reported.

I do not like this law, to me, it seems to mean that you can kill someone for a petty reason and get away with it.

It's not that easy to use this defense in my home state of Florida. Here is what I deem to be the most relevant part of the news article:

"Police, however, disagreed with Jock’s interpretation of the law and arrested him on charges of aggravated battery and firing a weapon within a building."

In order to use deadly force in self defense one must have a reasonable fear of DEATH or SERIOUS bodily injury at the moment the shots were fired. Merely being shoved around does not give anyone the right to use deadly force. This jerk will be prosecuted, and based upon everything I've read, he will certainly be convicted.

In my humble opinion this is not the same as the Zimmerman case. In that case, Zimmerman claimed Martin was on top of him hitting in the face and pounding his head against the pavement in an attack that lasted for several minutes. A claim could be made that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm; however, in the present case the circumstances clearly do not justify the use of deadly force.
 
Sneezing in one's general direction - Gunplay?
Giving someone a nasty look - Gunplay?
Cutting someone off in traffic - Gunplay?
Swearing - Gunplay?
Dog pooping on your lawn - Gunplay?

So many nuisances ..so few bullets.

Like Harry Callahan said, "Where does it END?"

Yea, let's arm everyone .............:rolleyes:
 
It's basic criminal law: you do not have the right to self defense if you're the aggressor.

I'm white. If I call a black guy a "N-------", and he punches me, I doubt very much that he'd ever be found guilty of assualt.

Same thing.

Both these guys are numbnuts. If you have a problem with service talk to the manager. The guy behind you can't do anything about it.

The first guy doesn't work and play well with others. Give him an F and move on with your life.

What's really sad is that this escalated into ANYTHING. You're standing in line to get a freaking pizza. What is WRONG with people?

I pulled into a parking spot once around Christmas, and was confronted by this idiot who thought it was HIS. I started laughing and said, "Would you like to be arrested right in front of your children? I can arrange that!"

He backed off.

What a dope.

it's true. and just because the florida law says you can 'stand your ground' doesn't mean you have to.

guy in front of you is being a loud mouthed jerk? think he might get violent? be an adult. leave.

don't be a pussy and shoot him.
 
I think that ThinkProgress is not the best source one can use, but I will assume it happened like it has been reported.

I do not like this law, to me, it seems to mean that you can kill someone for a petty reason and get away with it.

It's not that easy to use this defense in my home state of Florida. Here is what I deem to be the most relevant part of the news article:

"Police, however, disagreed with Jock’s interpretation of the law and arrested him on charges of aggravated battery and firing a weapon within a building."

In order to use deadly force in self defense one must have a reasonable fear of DEATH or SERIOUS bodily injury at the moment the shots were fired. Merely being shoved around does not give anyone the right to use deadly force. This jerk will be prosecuted, and based upon everything I've read, he will certainly be convicted.

In my humble opinion this is not the same as the Zimmerman case. In that case, Zimmerman claimed Martin was on top of him hitting in the face and pounding his head against the pavement in an attack that lasted for several minutes. A claim could be made that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm; however, in the present case the circumstances clearly do not justify the use of deadly force.

The encounter between Zimmerman and Martin was under a minute.
 
with deadly force over a raised fist? no, you don't have that right.


Of course I do.

You could be killed with one punch...or knocked unconscious limiting your ability to defend yourself from a fatal beating.

Don't be foolish...the man who raised his fist is the one in the wrong...period.

This will stand up in court every time.
Never has. Self defense has ALWAYS held the caveat of reasonable force to defend yourself. Escalation of force forfeits your right to self defense and switches self defense to the other person.

It's basic criminal law: you do not have the right to self defense if you're the aggressor. You lose any right to self defense if you escalate the level of force. You lose the right to self defense if the aggressor stops and/or tries to leave and you continue and/or pursue.

What the Stand Your Ground law does is remove any necessity that you try to exit the situation. It gives you the right to fight back with reasonable level of force.

A gun versus fist (that hasn't even hit you yet) is not reasonable.


No true at all.


Police said the Houston-area Valero station clerk was acting in self-defense when 21-year-old Alexander Calloway and two companions tried to enter the store after hours at 3:30 a.m., KHOU-TV reported. Surveillance video released Tuesday by store owner George Hlaiheo shows Calloway first punching the clerk in the face before the clerk pulls out a gun and opens fire.
 

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