Flat Tax

Would You Support a Flat Tax in America

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 71.9%
  • No

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Don't Care

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • Total voters
    32
If you go up on a mountain and make your wealth completely on your own, then you can say you're entitled to it. But if you use the US economic system (roads, police, military, courts, public schools, mail, etc), then you will have to pay for it. And the more you benefit from the system, the more you'll have to pay. Sorry, but the infrastructure isn't free.
 
I agree. I think I said that the other day, about those who think they've made their wealth on their own, but really they used societal infrastructure to their advantage, which in one way IS survival of the fittest, but you can't ignore the fact that some people just don't have the fair start, or mental capacity to do so. And unlike other animals, we're beyond survival of the fittest. We must bring everyone along on the road to freedom and fun.
So now it looks like the capitalists are trying to cut the dead weight, forgetting that individuals actually don't do ANYTHING entirely on their own, so to speak.

Capitalists need to convince people that they aren't hard asses before the socialists will do things their way.
 
some people just don't have the fair start, or mental capacity to do so. And unlike other animals, we're beyond survival of the fittest. We must bring everyone along on the road to freedom and fun.posted by CC

So it's not 'all men are CREATED equal', but 'All men must be MADE equal'?

Capitalists need to convince people that they aren't hard asses before the socialists will do things their way.posted by CC

Oh but they are HA!:D
 
So it's not 'all men are CREATED equal', but 'All men must be MADE equal'?

:p:

I'm still standing in the middle, until you convince me otherwise...
 
I don't think I'm going to 'convince you.' I myself am not a social Darwinist, I believe we need to take care of the most vunerable in our society, WITHIN REASON. That doesn't mean that everyone is able to have the same early start, sorry just a fact. It also doesn't mean that everyone will have the same autumn years, again just a fact. However in both cases, there must be a reasonable standard regarding basic health care, food, and housing. I just think that in most cases, the private sector can help more and better if the gov't would get out of the way and leave us more money.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
I don't think I'm going to 'convince you.' I myself am not a social Darwinist, I believe we need to take care of the most vunerable in our society, WITHIN REASON. That doesn't mean that everyone is able to have the same early start, sorry just a fact. It also doesn't mean that everyone will have the same autumn years, again just a fact. However in both cases, there must be a reasonable standard regarding basic health care, food, and housing. I just think that in most cases, the private sector can help more and better if the gov't would get out of the way and leave us more money.

If you were the person in the food line, would you still feel that way? Or do you think that because they got themselves there, or let themselves stay there, that they don't deserve the same things 'hard working' Americans do?

If you take an animal, and call it a human, and force it to work a certain way in society or ask it to behave the right way, but give it certain circumstances that make it difficult, you get different results. It's up to capitalists to convince people that a better life is waiting FOR ALL before you have things your way.

I think the gov't could provide jobs for the poor, tax them more, and provide for them. Until they turn into a capitalist if they like.
Do you think socialists are uncertain that the good life is waiting for all in a capitalist world? Like maybe it's just waiting for the capitalists?

I really have to shut off my computer. Please don't answer if it's just telling me to go read something, I'll get the message if you just don't answer. Have to make the husband some java juice :cof: and then drink it too, pretending that it doesn't turn my guts upside down.

Stupid routine. Why can't we break habits that don't make sense?
 
It's up to capitalists to convince people that a better life is waiting FOR ALL before you have things your way.

It's not a capitalistic view that "a better life is waiting", rather a better life is earned with hard work and the least amount of restriction placed on that work and earnings.
 
CC posted:

If you were the person in the food line, would you still feel that way? Or do you think that because they got themselves there, or let themselves stay there, that they don't deserve the same things 'hard working' Americans do?

For the most part, those 'standing in line' are people recently laid off. If you are getting $ for food from the gov't, the only line you're standing in is at the grocery story, just like I do.

I do not believe that someone who makes less should be humiliated, nor do I believe they should have the same standard of living that those that work better, (the word harder would just inflame, I'm sure), do.
 
Originally posted by MtnBiker
It's not a capitalistic view that "a better life is waiting", rather a better life is earned with hard work and the least amount of restriction placed on that work and earnings.

Of course a better life is earned with hard work, but isn't that neglecting those born without the ability, or those who have lost the will, or those born into poverty, or those whose brains don't make it easy for them to do so? Does capitalism reward those who are born better off, or whose circumstances result in a better life?

What would you do with the extra earnings saved from lower taxes, would you keep it or give it to those less fortunate? Is that the question that a keeps a socialist a socialist?
 
Originally posted by crazy canadian
Of course a better life is earned with hard work, but isn't that neglecting those born without the ability, or those who have lost the will, or those born into poverty, or those whose brains don't make it easy for them to do so? Does capitalism reward those who are born better off, or whose circumstances result in a better life?

What would you do with the extra earnings saved from lower taxes, would you keep it or give it to those less fortunate? Is that the question that a keeps a socialist a socialist?

Point 1-Yes.

Point 2-I give about 10% of my income to charity. Last year I donated over 200 hours to charitable organizations, including tutoring. What do you do?
 
Been trolling this thread and it seems to've begun a morph (is that current slang or am i dated?) into a rich man/poor man thread.

CC. I grew up in a white trash trailer park because my mom drove us into bankruptcy while my dad was deployed. Without a scholarship, college wasn't even an option. I grew up, joined the service and worked my way out of it. Then we had a fire later in life that destroyed everything we owned. Bankruptcy again (this time me as an adult), and back to the bottom of a deep hole. It's been about 15 years since that event but I am getting ready to buy a house. Never took a dime of welfare or food stamps. Instead I and my wife swallowed our pride and worked. I was in the service so I busted my ass to get ahead and moonlighted where authorized. She often worked a day and a weekend job. And BTW she also managed to get her college degree after dropping out of high school to have a kid. Point is that I cannot relate to the sugar plum fairy fantasy of the poor. Everyone can dig themselves out, I and my wife did it. My case isn't the worst scenario and even though we didn't use them, I still support the public safety nets. I don't mind lending a helping hand, but I really hate people who are multigenerational welfare families. I also hate the crowd who believes the world somehow owes them something just because they are breathing.

Back to the topic. Isn't the current tax system an example of what happens when we try to structure taxation with the ultimate aim to be perfectly "fair" to all concerned? Mortgage deductions. IRA Deductions, and interest rules were placed there to encourage home ownership and saving. Other deductions are there because someone said, "look what I am doing. Give me a break and I will donate money to worthy causes." I still believe that if you, me, bill gates, etc all pay a flat ten percent, it is fair. Don't penalize me for being middle class or Bill for being filthy rich. It's not our fault that we worked hard and made something of ourselves. Just like it isn't the poors fault that they are poor.
 
Thanks for that Pegwinn and thanks for your service too!
 
Originally posted by Merlin1047
Now that is a significantly larger amount than the tax paid by person A, but TAKEN AS A PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL INCOME, it is much less. The $8,000 paid by rich-guy B is only FOUR percent of his income.

I don't know. Call me dense. I only got A's in Quadratics in college. But tell me, how does one turn 15% into 4%? Is that magic?

I get what you and Kathianne are saying. That a "rich" person has a greater excess of funds to spend than a poorer person. On taxes as well as anything else. That's all fine and dandy, I understand that. But the mathmatical tax burden would be THE SAME to BOTH. NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT. Not rearanging numbers, looking at it sideways, or upside down. If the tax rate was a "FLAT RATE", EVERYONE would bare the same BURDEN in proportion the THEIR INCOME. Whatever josling of numbers you are doing isn't right.

There would HAVE to be a low cut off income level. Say $25,000, where you wouldn't pay any taxes at all.
 
I don't know how much money we give to charity. Sorry.
I volunteer for hospitals, events etc.
I buy meals for people on the streets downtown Seattle.
We keep granola bars in our car to hand out to people on the corners... we say, 'Good luck, sir' to try to show them some respect or make them feel better.
I can't think of everything we've ever done, but for example, my husband was at McDonald's once, and a woman was there with several hungry mouths to feed and she realized she didn't have her debit card, so rather than have to completely turn around and go back home, my husband gave her a twenty.
I also gave a nebulizer to an old lady in my apt complex the other day. She was quite rich, shops only at Nordstroms, or whereever rich Americans shop. She travels the world in her spare time. But a nebulizer wasn't covered by her insurance so I gave her mine. I don't know her name, or anything.
I don't really feel like saying what I do vs. what you do.
Is that ok?
Oh, also I don't sue hospitals or doctors for wrong doing, even though myself and my daughter have both almost died as a result of malpractise since living here.
Plus other things.
 
Originally posted by pegwinn
Been trolling this thread and it seems to've begun a morph (is that current slang or am i dated?) into a rich man/poor man thread.

CC. I grew up in a white trash trailer park because my mom drove us into bankruptcy while my dad was deployed. Without a scholarship, college wasn't even an option. I grew up, joined the service and worked my way out of it. Then we had a fire later in life that destroyed everything we owned. Bankruptcy again (this time me as an adult), and back to the bottom of a deep hole. It's been about 15 years since that event but I am getting ready to buy a house. Never took a dime of welfare or food stamps. Instead I and my wife swallowed our pride and worked. I was in the service so I busted my ass to get ahead and moonlighted where authorized. She often worked a day and a weekend job. And BTW she also managed to get her college degree after dropping out of high school to have a kid. Point is that I cannot relate to the sugar plum fairy fantasy of the poor. Everyone can dig themselves out, I and my wife did it. My case isn't the worst scenario and even though we didn't use them, I still support the public safety nets. I don't mind lending a helping hand, but I really hate people who are multigenerational welfare families. I also hate the crowd who believes the world somehow owes them something just because they are breathing.
Pegwinn, you are a great person. I don't like when people abuse the safety nets, and how do you stop them from doing it? But not everyone has the same abilities, mental or physical, that you do. That's assuming people are more like robots than people. If there was more assurance that safety nets would not be abused, then they could be made better. Perhaps self esteem seminars would help? I don't know.
I agree with your point though. Thanks.
 
CC are you assuming that the majority of the 'poor' are less able to succeed? I don't think so, I think most got some bad breaks along the way, but can be aided to do better through education centers or returning to school. The monies are there for both.
 
Originally posted by Kathianne
CC are you assuming that the majority of the 'poor' are less able to succeed? I don't think so, I think most got some bad breaks along the way, but can be aided to do better through education centers or returning to school. The monies are there for both.

Then, I think you should tell that to THEM.
Some people flourish under criticism, others wilt.
If you start telling people they are as good as anyone else, they'll like you and listen to you.
 
I'm in favor of a simple flat-tax system with a "safety net" (such as having the first so much amount of income not being taxed).
 
Do a flat tax. no exemptions no cut off pays. everyone who earns something pays a percent of that.

1)Its the only fair system. we all pay a % of what we earn

2)It will make raising taxes alot more difficult since everyone will be effected. Having a minority of people paying all the taxes is wrong.

If you make 10000. you pay x% if you make 100000000 you pay x%.

You shouldnt penalize people for making more money. it will keep the incentives for earning more low.

As for the simplifying the tax code. it would simplify things. maybe not alot but everyone would know what they had to pay.
 
Originally posted by mattskramer
I'm in favor of a simple flat-tax system with a "safety net" (such as having the first so much amount of income not being taxed).

My God I'm going to faint dead away...... :eek2: .....

..... we agree.....
 

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