Flat Tax is a fraud and Steve Forbes knows this...

[NYcarbineer]

If you can show that going from a progressive tax structure to a flat tax structure does NOT raise taxes (relatively) on lower income taxpayers and cut taxes (relatively) on higher income taxpayers,

then by all means do so and prove me wrong.

Every flat tax that's ever been proposed exempts people below a certain income, but that number is far lower than the number who are exempt under the current brackets.

There's no reason that people making a decent income shouldn't contribute towards the support of their government. The idea that only the rich should pay is pretty pretty much outright communism. It's the credo of thugs.

That's not a flat tax then. Progressive taxation by definition includes exemptions/credits etc., that are given only to those with lower income.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Yep, Because according to Democrats, in order to be Fair, our Tax system has to be overtly unfair, and punish those who do well.

One of the principles behind a progressive tax system vs a flat tax system is that money more likely to be used for basic necessities should be taxed at a lower rate than money not so needed.

What's unfair about that?

It's not, Until you start talking about taking 70% of one groups income while taking in effect 0 of another.

You can spin that all you want, Progressive for sure, Fair??? depends on who you ask.

Your premise has another flaw. Everyone, Rich or poor as an amount they can make that is completely un-taxable, Until they make more than that they pay NOTHING. That is suppose to be the Basic Necessities of life money right there.

I have no problem with helping the Genuinely poor out, but there are an awful lot of people out there, poor enough to pay no federal income tax, that seem to have enough money for 130 channels of Cable, Internet, 2 cars and Smart Phones. Or better yet a drug habit.

Like I said our system is Progressive sure, but Fair? Not even close.

If the tax rate on, say, the 1st 30,000 is 10%, the rich pay 10% on that just like the guy who makes a total of 30,000.

And, btw, what does a drug habit have to do with it? Who are you talking about? Lindsay Lohan?

 

[NYcarbineer]

I might have some respect if he (and the OP) could come up with their own ridiculous theories... sadly, they're not even capable of that. They regurgitate whatever some left wing idiot says... and, more often than not, they don't understand it, or haven't read it.

If you can show that going from a progressive tax structure to a flat tax structure does NOT raise taxes (relatively) on lower income taxpayers and cut taxes (relatively) on higher income taxpayers,

then by all means do so and prove me wrong.

Who in the hell ever told you that low income people should get a free ride? That's a faulty way of thinking.

Nothing in my post has anything to do with a 'way of thinking' you illiterate cow.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

What is unfair is that 50% of us have to pay all the Federal Income Taxes and the other 50% of you pay zero and then sit around and bitch that you want more. A flat tax is a fair tax.

Like I've said before, if you want to put millions back into the tax paying category,

eliminate the $1000 per child tax credit.

You want to do that??

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Exhibit A: How Marxists Think

 

[Liability]

Exempt some amount a taxpayer makes then have a flat tax thereafter. Exempt the first, say, $30,000, and thereafter all sources of income are taxed at 25%.

Somebody making $30,000 would pay 0% in taxes. Somebody making $50,000 would pay 10% in taxes. Somebody making $100,000 would pay 17.5% in taxes. Somebody making $1 million would pay 24.375% in taxes.

Voila! Flat and progressive and no need for an accountant.

10% of 50,000 or 10% of 20,000?

$50,000 in income
$30,000 exemption
$20,000 taxable income
Tax liability 25% x $20,000 = $5,000
Effective tax rate $5,000 / $50,000 = 10%

Wow. That math thing is like MAGIC!

 

[hortysir]

I just finished filing and, honestly, I didn't pay enough - net negative, actually.
I merely loaned the fed money and they gave me back more than what I gave them.

 

[Lovebears65]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

What is unfair is that 50% of us have to pay all the Federal Income Taxes and the other 50% of you pay zero and then sit around and bitch that you want more. A flat tax is a fair tax.

Not only they not pay any taxes in a lot of cases they get Earned income credit so they do get free money while others have to pay more to give them that free money to them

 

[tinydancer]

The beauty of a goods and services tax. GST is that it levels the playing field.

99% can now step out to the plate and say that they have paid their fair share as well.

I like this. Tell the 99% they can rock with this. It's only fair don't you think?

 

[alan1]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Just one thing, see your statement in that I placed in red. Treat all income exactly the same, and you have a flat tax. Seems that you inadvertently support a flat tax.
Of course, we know you really don't want that, you want some income taxed at higher rates than other income despite your statement to the contrary.
You believe in tyranny by the masses. The majority of people make under $250k, so you want that majority to be able to use the government as a weapon to confiscate the income of the minority that makes more than $250k. You support using the government to perform theft for you. Do you also ask your next door neighbor to steal the car of the neighbor down the street because he has a nice car than you?

 

[alan1]

Flat-taxers pretend a flat tax is good public policy, for two reasons.

First, they say, it would simplify paying taxes. Baloney. Flat-tax proposals don’t eliminate popular deductions. (I’ll be surprised if Perry’s plan eliminates the popular mortgage-interest deduction, for example.) So most tax payers would still have to fill out lots of forms.

Second, they say a flat tax is fairer than the current system because, in Cain’s words, a flat tax “treats everyone the same.”

The truth is the current tax code treats everyone the same. It’s organized around tax brackets. Everyone whose income reaches the same bracket is treated the same as everyone else whose income reaches that bracket (apart from various deductions, exemptions, and credits, of course).


Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

That is far from the truth.
It doesn't treat all income the same (you even admitted that when you mentioned capital gains). Since people have different incomes, the result is that everyone is not treated the same.
Got anymore conflicting statements you want to claim are truth?

 

[hortysir]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Just one thing, see your statement in that I placed in red. Treat all income exactly the same, and you have a flat tax. Seems that you inadvertently support a flat tax.
Of course, we know you really don't want that, you want some income taxed at higher rates than other income despite your statement to the contrary.
You believe in tyranny by the masses. The majority of people make under $250k, so you want that majority to be able to use the government as a weapon to confiscate the income of the minority that makes more than $250k. You support using the government to perform theft for you. Do you also ask your next door neighbor to steal the car of the neighbor down the street because he has a nice car than you?

I submit that suggesting taxing capital gains at the same rate as income tax is counter to a "flat tax".
The money used to invest was already taxed. To tax it again would, effectively, make the capital gains tax higher than income tax.

 

[alan1]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Just one thing, see your statement in that I placed in red. Treat all income exactly the same, and you have a flat tax. Seems that you inadvertently support a flat tax.
Of course, we know you really don't want that, you want some income taxed at higher rates than other income despite your statement to the contrary.
You believe in tyranny by the masses. The majority of people make under $250k, so you want that majority to be able to use the government as a weapon to confiscate the income of the minority that makes more than $250k. You support using the government to perform theft for you. Do you also ask your next door neighbor to steal the car of the neighbor down the street because he has a nice car than you?

I submit that suggesting taxing capital gains at the same rate as income tax is counter to a "flat tax".
The money used to invest was already taxed. To tax it again would, effectively, make the capital gains tax higher than income tax.

Actually, i would support lowering the income tax rate to the same as the capital gains rate (or lower for both) and taxing all income exactly the same regardless of how much income one has. Make people that earn $1000 year pay the exact same tax rate as somebody that earns $10,000, $100,000, $1,000,000 or more.
Like merrill said, "the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same."

 

[merrill]

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions.

They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

 

[Liability]

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions.

They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Class warfare rhetoric is valueless until and unless you support your pointless "major" premise with some other "premises" that together can create a workable syllogism.

In short, merr, all you are spouting is apparent jealousy.

"They" have "more." Oh, those evil "them." How DARE anybody have more?

 

[alan1]

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions.

They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Easy solution for you.
Become one of the top 1% and donate your wealth to the 99% or the government, whichever you prefer.
Sam Walton, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs didn't start out in the top 1%, just like you.

 

[hortysir]

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions.

They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

Shut up, stupid.

You don't deserve my money

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

What is unfair is that 50% of us have to pay all the Federal Income Taxes and the other 50% of you pay zero and then sit around and bitch that you want more. A flat tax is a fair tax.

Not only they not pay any taxes in a lot of cases they get Earned income credit so they do get free money while others have to pay more to give them that free money to them

Who has to pay more to make up for the mortgage interest deduction that people get?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The Republicans’ push for a flat tax masks what’s really going on.

Remember: The top 1 percent is now raking in over 20 percent of the nation’s total income and owns over 35 percent of the nation’s wealth. Under almost anyone’s view of fairness, these are grotesque portions. They’re especially large relative to what they were as recently as thirty years ago, when the top 1 percent raked in under 10 percent. And these huge portions at the top continue to increase.

Meanwhile, the top tax bracket is now 35 percent — the lowest it’s been in three decades. Between the end of World War II and 1980 it never fell below 70 percent.

Simple fairness requires three things: More tax brackets at the top, higher rates in each bracket, and the treatment of all sources of income (capital gains included) exactly the same.

Not only fairness demands it, but also fiscal prudence. A truly progressive tax would bring in tens of billions of dollars a year from the people at the top who are in the best position to afford it.

Regressives are pushing the flat tax as a smokescreen. They’d rather not have anyone talk about the unfairness and fiscal absurdity of the current system.

Rather than merely oppose the flat tax, sensible people should push for a truly progressive tax – starting with a top rate of 70 percent on that portion of anyone’s income exceeding $5 million, from whatever source.

Robert Reich (The Flat-Tax Fraud, and the Necessity of a Truly Progressive Tax)

The top tax bracket was 70 % but a lot higher portion of rich folks didn't actually pay that rate as there were more loopholes.


You are pretty much right, though, I'm just pointing out that one not so accurate point.


I think we should return the top tax bracket to 39.6% and eliminate the special tax rate for capital gains.

 

[DiamondDave]

Exempt some amount a taxpayer makes then have a flat tax thereafter. Exempt the first, say, $30,000, and thereafter all sources of income are taxed at 25%.

Somebody making $30,000 would pay 0% in taxes. Somebody making $50,000 would pay 10% in taxes. Somebody making $100,000 would pay 17.5% in taxes. Somebody making $1 million would pay 24.375% in taxes.

Voila! Flat and progressive and no need for an accountant.

Quite frankly, just another disguised way of presenting a progressive system... I simply will not ever support another progressive system