Flag Burning

[nakedemperor]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House on Wednesday approved a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure that for the first time stands a chance of passing the Senate as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/22/congress.flagburning.ap/index.html

How is this not unconstitutional? Come ON people...

Orwellian names like "Patriot Act" and "Freedom Fries" are one thing, but what's next? Repealing one's right to speak ill of his/her country? Man, its like the pigs sneaking into the barn in the middle of the night to change the rules just a little.. does anyone care?

Not to mention the fact that THIS IS A NON-ISSUE. This is a completely political push-button, 'more patriotic than thou', non-issue. Who does flag burning affect? How many flags has anyone ever seen burned outside of the Middle East? Way to waste taxpayer time and money, congress, not to mention shred the constitution just a little bit.

 

[OCA]

How is this not unconstitutional? Come ON people...

Orwellian names like "Patriot Act" and "Freedom Fries" are one thing, but what's next? Repealing one's right to speak ill of his/her country? Man, its like the pigs sneaking into the barn in the middle of the night to change the rules just a little.. does anyone care?

Not to mention the fact that THIS IS A NON-ISSUE. This is a completely political push-button, 'more patriotic than thou', non-issue. Who does flag burning affect? How many flags has anyone ever seen burned outside of the Middle East? Way to waste taxpayer time and money, congress, not to mention shred the constitution just a little bit.

So again nothing is sacred, heh Nakey? I understand, you can't understand sacred after all your a guy who can't even decide if he wants a female hole or a male hole.

 

[OCA]

Anyway, anything other than the proper disposal of the flag as it has been recognized throughout American history should be met with a stiff jail sentence and fine and if circumstances permit a stiff ass thrashing from an unruly mob.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Dubbyuh desecrates the flag when he signs little paper ones at functions. Wearing the flag as a tie, or any other article of clothing, is desecration...using the flag in advertising is desecration...Need I go on

Free speech is protected unfer the Constitution, even if it is as pathetic as burning the flag.

 

[Annie]

Dubbyuh desecrates the flag when he signs little paper ones at functions. Wearing the flag as a tie, or any other article of clothing, is desecration...using the flag in advertising is desecration...Need I go on

Free speech is protected unfer the Constitution, even if it is as pathetic as burning the flag.

Bully, flamming.

 

[OCA]

Dubbyuh desecrates the flag when he signs little paper ones at functions. Wearing the flag as a tie, or any other article of clothing, is desecration...using the flag in advertising is desecration...Need I go on

Free speech is protected unfer the Constitution, even if it is as pathetic as burning the flag.

Since when and where it is it stated that wearing a representation of the flag is desecration?

Oh why bother, if it was Che Guevara reincarnated wearing the flag it would be just fine with you.

 

[nakedemperor]

1. Burning the flag is free speech.
2. Speech is defended in all forms, vile or otherwise.
3. Burning the flag, in my opinion, is vile.
4. Idolizing the symbol while disregarding the values the symbol represents is hypocrisy.

 

[nakedemperor]

So again nothing is sacred, heh Nakey? I understand, you can't understand sacred after all your a guy who can't even decide if he wants a female hole or a male hole.

Why on earth does it always get so base and invective with you, OCA? Who made this guy a mod?

 

[Bullypulpit]

Since when and where it is it stated that wearing a representation of the flag is desecration?

Oh why bother, if it was Che Guevara reincarnated wearing the flag it would be just fine with you.

You don't get it, not because you're ignorant, but because you don't want to. Burning the flag is not only free speech...it is protected by the First Amendment. But the Constitution doesn't mean as much to you as you claim it does, now does it?

 

[Mr. P]

This is Bullshit!
I know many of you will not understand this...I served this Country so ass holes could burn the flag. It's simple really, it's called freedom.

That's all I have to say....

 

[Gem]

While Bullypulpit has, as usual, taken it to a ludicrous extreme (wearing representations of the flag is a completely different thing than an actual sanctioned flag...) I agree wholeheartedly with NakedEmperor and Mr. P. on this one.

I find flag-burning to be deeply offensive. However the flag itself means absolutely nothing if it does not stand for freedom. The freedom of speech and the freedom of expression are what hundreds of thousands of men and women have died for since the creation of that flag.

By stating that you can not express yourself by burning it is like saying you have the freedom of speech, but I'll kill you if you say something I don't like.

It makes the whole notion of our freedom nation a lie and turns the flag into a symbol of hypocrisy, rather than what it is presently, the symbol of a nation that believes people have the right to state what they believe...even if they believe that the flag should be burned.

It is absolutely ridiculous that this is being considered and I have to agree, I can see little reason other than, "I'm more patriotic than you" politics behind it.

You can find flag burning to be one of the most abhorrent practices around...I know it makes my blood boil when I see someone do it. However, I love that this nation (so far, at least) protects the rights that make it great...even if in doing so it has to respect the opinions of people they disagree with.

 

[colehart]

Yelling "fire" in a theatre is also free speech, but you can be prosecuted.[/B]
2. Speech is defended in all forms, vile or otherwise. Wrong! Have you heard of slander?
3. Burning the flag, in my opinion, is vile.
4. Idolizing the symbol while disregarding the values the symbol represents is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is also saying I love this country and then burning the symbol that represents the reason why you love this country.

 

[nakedemperor]

1. Burning the flag is free speech. Yelling "fire" in a theatre is also free speech, but you can be prosecuted.
2. Speech is defended in all forms, vile or otherwise. Wrong! Have you heard of slander?
3. Burning the flag, in my opinion, is vile.
4. Idolizing the symbol while disregarding the values the symbol represents is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is also saying I love this country and then burning the symbol that represents the reason why you love this country.

1. Yelling fire in a theatre could cause a stampede that might injure people. Burning a piece of cloth/paper can be done in a safe manner.

2. Fine, but burning a flag isn't slander.

4. Well, the next time you see someone say 'I love the US of A' and then burn a flag, you can tell them that. However, re: this discussion, this point is immaterial. You can't pass a law against hypocrisy.

 

[acludem]

This amendment is nothing more than political hot-button issue being used to score points with voters. It is unecessary and takes us in the wrong direction. Flag-burning is very uncommon anymore and yes it should be protected free speech. It will still take 2/3rds of the senate to approve the amendment and I honestly don't think they will get it. It will be closer, but the amendment will still fail. I certainly hope it does, otherwise the rest of our Constitutional liberties could be at stake.

acludem

 

[Gunny]

The flag represents our nation. That the First Amendment allows one to burn it is just left-wingnut literalist jibberish. "The Constitution doesn't say I can't." That's because our Founding Fathers never envisioned that any idiots would conside doing such a thing.

If you want to believe the Constitution allows you to express yourself by burning the flag, so be it.

I will express my disagreement with your wrongful thinking via baseball bat if you try it around me.

 

[nakedemperor]

The flag represents our nation. That the First Amendment allows one to burn it is just left-wingnut literalist jibberish. "The Constitution doesn't say I can't." That's because our Founding Fathers never envisioned that any idiots would conside doing such a thing.

If you want to believe the Constitution allows you to express yourself by burning the flag, so be it.

I will express my disagreement with your wrongful thinking via baseball bat if you try it around me.

That flag that represents our nation represents the principles and ideals that our nation was founded on, without which the USA wouldn't be the great nation that it is. One of those principles is the right to express yourself. Burning the flag is a mode of expression that I wouldn't ever agree with, but I'll fight for someone's right to freely express him/herself in such a manner. When we start choosing certain exceptions to the rule, we start stripping ourselves of freedoms and liberties protected by the constitution and embodied in the stars and stripes. If you'd like to hit someone with a baseball bat for excercising their God-given and constitutionally protected freedom of expression, then your priorities are severely out of whack.

 

[Merlin]

That flag that represents our nation represents the principles and ideals that our nation was founded on, without which the USA wouldn't be the great nation that it is. One of those principles is the right to express yourself. Burning the flag is a mode of expression that I wouldn't ever agree with, but I'll fight for someone's right to freely express him/herself in such a manner. When we start choosing certain exceptions to the rule, we start stripping ourselves of freedoms and liberties protected by the constitution and embodied in the stars and stripes. If you'd like to hit someone with a baseball bat for excercising their God-given and constitutionally protected freedom of expression, then your priorities are severely out of whack.

I must be a lot more ignorant than I thought I was. I never knew, and I can't find it anywhere, that anyone has a right to "freely express him/herself". But I will keep looking for it. Another thing I don't seem to comprehend is the part on the first amendment that says "or abridging the freedom of speech". I interpret that sentence to mean that I can "SAY" anything that I want to. Example: I can "SAY" that I want to burn the American Flag, but where does it give me permission to actually carry out this "ACTION"? What was the definition of speech when our founding fathers wrote the constitution, and what did they think the word meant at the time they wrote it? Regardless of how you cut it, speech has to come from the vocal chords, not any other part of the body such as hands, arms, feet, or legs. Humans is the only spices with the ability of speech, and that comes from human spices are the only ones with vocal chords. At my age, it doesn't much matter how I die, so I will fight to my death for anyone's "right" to use a baseball bat on anyone who burns the American Flag. I didn't serve my country to give anyone the privilege of burning my flag. One more thought. Anyone that burns, or supports someones right to burn the American flag, has completely different concepts of what America is, or at least should be. It disapoints me.

 

[Bullypulpit]

I must be a lot more ignorant than I thought I was. I never knew, and I can't find it anywhere, that anyone has a right to "freely express him/herself". But I will keep looking for it. Another thing I don't seem to comprehend is the part on the first amendment that says "or abridging the freedom of speech". I interpret that sentence to mean that I can "SAY" anything that I want to. Example: I can "SAY" that I want to burn the American Flag, but where does it give me permission to actually carry out this "ACTION"? What was the definition of speech when our founding fathers wrote the constitution, and what did they think the word meant at the time they wrote it? Regardless of how you cut it, speech has to come from the vocal chords, not any other part of the body such as hands, arms, feet, or legs. Humans is the only spices with the ability of speech, and that comes from human spices are the only ones with vocal chords. At my age, it doesn't much matter how I die, so I will fight to my death for anyone's "right" to use a baseball bat on anyone who burns the American Flag. I didn't serve my country to give anyone the privilege of burning my flag. One more thought. Anyone that burns, or supports someones right to burn the American flag, has completely different concepts of what America is, or at least should be. It disapoints me.

<blockquote><b>Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression</b>

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; <i><b>or abridging the freedom of speech</i></b>, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. (<i>emphasis mine</i>)</blockquote>

The first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem.

As far as speech goes, speech is a form of expression. Contributing to your favorite political campaign or politician is a form of expression. The B&D videos in the adult section of your local video store are a form of expression. The newspaper you read every day is a form of expression. The 'news' on FOX 'News' is a form of expression. This forum is a form of expression. Burning a flag is a form of expression. If all are not protected, then none are safe.

 

[Bullypulpit]

While Bullypulpit has, as usual, taken it to a ludicrous extreme (wearing representations of the flag is a completely different thing than an actual sanctioned flag...)

I refer you to <a href=http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html>Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 8, Para <i>D-J</i></a>

<blockquote>(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart. </blockquote>

US law is already sufficient...The Constitutional Amendment passed by the house is an "I'm more patriotic than thou.." canard.

 

[Hobbit]

I'm with Bully on this one, except I think there need to be a few more rules.

The flag is being disrespected in the name of national pride every day. It's disgusting. Every time I see some soccer mom driving down the road with a flag mounted on the antenna of her SUV with the flag worn and frayed down to the stars, it makes me mad.

(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

This whole thing is correct.

Now, as far as regulations, the government could take the flag back by asserting law of trademark and pull all uses of the flag as apparel, dishes, and advertising.

Private citizens burning a flag they bought themselves...that's kinda testy. I'd like to see the punks thrown in jail, too, but that puts us on a road I don't want to go too far down.