First Pre-Crime Arrest

[Misty]

They might have given the guy enough time to cool down, actually preventing a mass murder.

I'll have to hear way more of this story before I form an opinion.

 

[eagleseven]

They might have given the guy enough time to cool down, actually preventing a mass murder.

I'll have to hear way more of this story before I form an opinion.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BH0zhjbspc]YouTube - Dallas Swat Raid[/ame]

That's how you cool a guy down? At 5:30 AM?

 

[Misty]

" Bloom says the police are permitted to make a determination on their own to take someone in for a mental health evaluation—there's no requirement that they first consult with a judge or mental health professional."

this is a local Oregon state Law.

 

[hboats]

It was bound to happen after we invaded Iraq before the crime was comitted.

Yes, because we all know Sadam was a perfect little angel who never hurt a soul.

Rick

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

" Bloom says the police are permitted to make a determination on their own to take someone in for a mental health evaluation—there's no requirement that they first consult with a judge or mental health professional."

this is a local Oregon state Law.

Not without a "REASONABLE BELIEF" he was a threat, which apparently was NOT TRUE!

I hope they fry the state on this one!

 

[Vanquish]

I dont agree with the "damned if you do damned if you dont" because that mixes actual law with the public's kneejerk reaction.

If you follow the law to the letter of the law...then you're protected. If you follow that law and someone shoots up a place...it's not your fault that he went fucking nuts.

If you DONT follow the law...and you rush in...break rules...maybe trample a few constitutional rights here and there....then you should be punished.

Just because people are going to complain you didn't act enough....that's not a reason to break the law. This is like the torture thread. Just because you think there might be a terrorist plot inside an apartment, that doesnt mean you can torture everyone in the apartment.

I'm all for the police when they obey the law.

 

[xsited1]

Pre-Crime Policing

Allegedly “disgruntled” man has his guns seized, and “voluntarily” surrenders to two SWAT teams and dozens of police officers for a crime that hadn’t been committed
...

Does Tom Cruise live in Oregon?

 

[manifold]

Damned if you do....damned if you don't

If they had the opportunity and did nothing and the guy went postal, all the threads would be...."Why didn't they act sooner given the evidence?

Case in point Maj Hassan in Ft Hood

yep, except there is one pretty material difference between the two: Hassan was in the military, this guy is a civilian.

The military could have dealt with Hassan without it being a rights issue, whereas it's quite a bit trickier when it's a civilian. Of course he did voluntarily surrender. I wonder how it might have turned out if he hadn't.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Pre-Crime Policing

Allegedly “disgruntled” man has his guns seized, and “voluntarily” surrenders to two SWAT teams and dozens of police officers for a crime that hadn’t been committed

To hear them tell it, the five police agencies who apprehended 39-year-old Oregonian David Pyles early on the morning of March 8 thwarted another lone wolf mass murderer. The police "were able to successfully take a potentially volatile male subject into protective custody for a mental evaluation," announced a press release put out by the Medford, Oregon, police department. The subject had recently been placed on administrative leave from his job, was "very disgruntled," and had recently purchased several firearms. "Local Law Enforcement agencies were extremely concerned that the subject was planning retaliation against his employers," the release said. Fortunately, Pyles "voluntarily" turned himself over to police custody, and the legally purchased firearms "were seized for safekeeping."

This voluntary exchange involved two SWAT teams, police officers from Medford and nearby Rosewood, sheriff's deputies from Jackson and Douglas counties, and the Oregon State Police. Oregon State Police Sgt. Jeff Proulx explained to South Oregon's Mail Tribune why the operation was such a success: "Instead of being reactive, we took a proactive approach."

There's just one problem: David Pyles hadn't committed any crime, nor was he suspected of having committed one. The police never obtained a warrant for either search or arrest. They never consulted with a judge or mental health professional before sending out the military-style tactical teams to take Pyle in.

"They woke me up with a phone call at about 5:50 in the morning," Pyles told me in a phone interview Friday. "I looked out the window and saw the SWAT team pointing their guns at my house. The officer on the phone told me to turn myself in. I told them I would, on three conditions: I would not be handcuffed. I would not be taken off my property. And I would not be forced to get a mental health evaluation. He agreed. The second I stepped outside, they jumped me. Then they handcuffed me, took me off my property, and took me to get a mental health evaluation."

By noon the same day, Pyles had already been released from the Rogue Valley Medical Center with a clean bill of mental health. Four days later the Medford Police Department returned Pyle’s guns, despite telling him earlier in the week—falsely—that he'd need to undergo a second background check before he could get them back. On Friday the Medford Police Department put out a second press release, this time announcing that the agency had returned the "disgruntled" worker's guns, and "now considers this matter closed.

And worse still, this is technically legal under the Patriot Act's "Lone Wolf" provision.

This is not the America I was born in...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4IVAPj1nC4]YouTube - FGFC820 - Not The World I Remember[/ame]

 

[uscitizen]

" Bloom says the police are permitted to make a determination on their own to take someone in for a mental health evaluation—there's no requirement that they first consult with a judge or mental health professional."

this is a local Oregon state Law.

any person can be "Baker Acted" if they are determined to be a threat to themselves or others. They are held for mental evaluation and can be kept till they are of a more stable frame of mind.

 

[Dr Grump]

It's interesting that quite a few op-ed pieces, and people on messageboards, were disturbed at the lack of pre action before Columbine. Quite a bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking on what could have been done to prevent the tragedy.

I think the man is due some compensation, but maybe the home invasion made him see the light.

It's a lose-lose situation for everybody.

Just wondered what peoples' reactions would have been if he had gone postal, and it came out after the fact that the police had been monitoring him but hadn't done anything about it....

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Damned if you do....damned if you don't

If they had the opportunity and did nothing and the guy went postal, all the threads would be...."Why didn't they act sooner given the evidence?

Case in point Maj Hassan in Ft Hood

No, all the threads would be, "Another right-wing nutter shoots up workplace," and "ban all guns," followed by, "he would have found a way to get the guns if he really wanted to."

No matter how you slice the potential outcome, what happened in Medford is not what this country is supposed to be about. Bootm line, it's bullshit.

I'm not disagreeing with that possible result - but I've NEVER seen a "ban all guns" thread here.

 

[goldcatt]

Are they seriously using the Patriot Act to try to justify this? That thing was a nightmare from the start, which only makes sense I guess. Writing laws while hiding under the bed wetting their pants isn't the brightest idea Congress ever had. Get rid of it already.

There's surely more to this story. But I cant imagine there's enough to justify what the police did or they would have at least hinted at it.

Here's a serious question: What is wrong with people lately?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Pre-Crime Policing

Allegedly “disgruntled” man has his guns seized, and “voluntarily” surrenders to two SWAT teams and dozens of police officers for a crime that hadn’t been committed

To hear them tell it, the five police agencies who apprehended 39-year-old Oregonian David Pyles early on the morning of March 8 thwarted another lone wolf mass murderer. The police "were able to successfully take a potentially volatile male subject into protective custody for a mental evaluation," announced a press release put out by the Medford, Oregon, police department. The subject had recently been placed on administrative leave from his job, was "very disgruntled," and had recently purchased several firearms. "Local Law Enforcement agencies were extremely concerned that the subject was planning retaliation against his employers," the release said. Fortunately, Pyles "voluntarily" turned himself over to police custody, and the legally purchased firearms "were seized for safekeeping."

This voluntary exchange involved two SWAT teams, police officers from Medford and nearby Rosewood, sheriff's deputies from Jackson and Douglas counties, and the Oregon State Police. Oregon State Police Sgt. Jeff Proulx explained to South Oregon's Mail Tribune why the operation was such a success: "Instead of being reactive, we took a proactive approach."

There's just one problem: David Pyles hadn't committed any crime, nor was he suspected of having committed one. The police never obtained a warrant for either search or arrest. They never consulted with a judge or mental health professional before sending out the military-style tactical teams to take Pyle in.

"They woke me up with a phone call at about 5:50 in the morning," Pyles told me in a phone interview Friday. "I looked out the window and saw the SWAT team pointing their guns at my house. The officer on the phone told me to turn myself in. I told them I would, on three conditions: I would not be handcuffed. I would not be taken off my property. And I would not be forced to get a mental health evaluation. He agreed. The second I stepped outside, they jumped me. Then they handcuffed me, took me off my property, and took me to get a mental health evaluation."

By noon the same day, Pyles had already been released from the Rogue Valley Medical Center with a clean bill of mental health. Four days later the Medford Police Department returned Pyle’s guns, despite telling him earlier in the week—falsely—that he'd need to undergo a second background check before he could get them back. On Friday the Medford Police Department put out a second press release, this time announcing that the agency had returned the "disgruntled" worker's guns, and "now considers this matter closed.

And worse still, this is technically legal under the Patriot Act's "Lone Wolf" provision.

This is not the America I was born in...

the issue is one of process. mental health officials should have been consulted. this is not about the right to privacy or arms or whatever...it is about public safety.


Before mental health patients rights became a big issue, this would not have been such a political football.

of course there is the slippery slope argument/concerns...the ACLU should be all over this (those damn liberals ), but I support intervention where warranted.

This case is hopefully not typical.

what is missing is what Local Law Enforcement was tipped off to and by whom.

 

[Wicked Jester]

He wasn't arrested. He was DETAINED in order to get evaluated.

Get your facts straight people!

And if he did go off and kill a bunch of people, you same lunatics would be up here screaming about the police not taking a proactive approach before it happened.

Paranoia strikes deep. It's quite obvious that the OP is suffering from extreme paranoia. Or complete stupidity.

 

[manu1959]

I believe that Police have always had the ability to remove someone for a mental evaluation even before the Patriot Act

i believe it is called a 5150.....they can take you and detaine you for 24 hours if the think you are a danger to yourself...exisited long before sept 11....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

It's interesting that quite a few op-ed pieces, and people on messageboards, were disturbed at the lack of pre action before Columbine. Quite a bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking on what could have been done to prevent the tragedy.

I think the man is due some compensation, but maybe the home invasion made him see the light.

It's a lose-lose situation for everybody.

Just wondered what peoples' reactions would have been if he had gone postal, and it came out after the fact that the police had been monitoring him but hadn't done anything about it....

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

He wasn't arrested. He was DETAINED in order to get evaluated.

Get your facts straight people!

And if he did go off and kill a bunch of people, you same lunatics would be up here screaming about the police not taking a proactive approach before it happened.

Paranoia strikes deep. It's quite obvious that the OP is suffering from extreme paranoia. Or complete stupidity.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I believe that Police have always had the ability to remove someone for a mental evaluation even before the Patriot Act

i believe it is called a 5150.....they can take you and detaine you for 24 hours if the think you are a danger to yourself...exisited long before sept 11....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold)

at least 5 of us have retained our senses.

 

[Wicked Jester]

In california they can put you on a 72 hour eval hold.