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☭proletarian☭;1826008 said:Not all of them, to the best of our knowledge, at least. I had to call you on that one.Living creatures are sentient..
This just makes me sad, and fearful for our nation's future.
That I concur with
True, but as long as we are discussing "programming", and some are discussing a higher being as the great creator and planner of all things.. Then we are also programmed to have a psychological reaction that is maternal or paternal to anything with a human-like face. This is why people want to have and hold little baby chimps- their facial qualities spur a preprogrammed response in us to care for them, because they look very human-like. In fact, to go on about the psychology of sentience- if you met two people in a room, and one was dressed kinda raggedy and was unattractive to you, or was disfigured in the face, you would be FAR less likely to share your time with that person, than the likelihood of you spending your time (or money) on someone who had a more human looking face. This is all preprogrammed psychology, and why we care more for certain people than others, on a primative level.
All of this is completely irrelevant. Living creatures are sentient. They think and are self-aware. Robots are not alive, they do not think, and they are not self-aware. Period.
Tumors are not alive, but they grow. Moles are not alive, but they grow. Diseases are not alive, but they grow..
One could actually venture out and claim that all of the above have some form of sentience, even.. Philosophically speaking, of course. Although, I do think that you lack the capacity to think that broadly on this kind of subject.
No, dear. It is a basic awareness of science and biology, untainted by a fuzzy, emotional desire to remake reality to suit personal preferences. A fetus IS an individual, self-contained human organism. That's just the biological fact. Does he require a specific environment to survive? Certainly, but so do all other living organisms. Requiring the specific environment for which nature designed you and being unable to survive in an environment for which you were not designed does not make you less alive or less individual.
How is it self contained, exactly? To say that it is self contained completely eliminates the placenta, and umbilical cord, and more importantly, the host mother from the equation. Could you BE more pathological about this? Not being alive is not something that MAKES the organism ALIVE.
If something is not alive, it cannot BE ALIVE. Do you copy???
And NEEDING to be inside of another human being in order to grow to a point where that organism can live on it's own, is an ATTACHMENT, and is a parasitic one indeed, certainly not the quality of an individual. An individual is a SINGULAR term, NOT A PLURAL.
individual - Dictionary definition and pronunciation - Yahoo! Education
I don't give a rat's ass what a psychological study has shown about how people "feel" about fetuses and babies. The only person in this conversation who is thinking that feelings and personal opinions are relevant to this is you. I'm all about the medical science on this subject.
Since when is psychology NOT medical science?? BTW- these are facts. You don't have to appreciate them or agree with them, but because they are FACTS, they do not BEND.
Glad to hear you're in favor of allowing people to believe in facts.
Yep.. just waiting on you to actually do something like that.
Again, this is not a matter of personal opinion. The facts are what they are, whether you want them to be that way or not. A fetus is what he is, and your feelings about the situation are irrelevant to those facts.
No.. You have me backwards. I support YOUR FEELINGS. My posts are entirely supportive of whatever the individual in question chooses. Yours do not indicate that you support the actual individual involved in all of the life and death decision making that is needed to bring a pregnancy full term. You just want to penalize them all. You are the one basing it all on anger and hate, not me. Get it straight, love.
None of this is subjective. Do you stop being alive simply because I decide that I "feel" you are not? Of course not. Likewise, a fetus's life does not stop existing because you "believe" it doesn't exist.
I never said a fetus does not exist. A fetus DOES exist. We are discussing personhood and whether a fetus is alive or is growing but not alive. Again, please try to follow the conversation. Your anger shows.
No, you're just an illogical, unscientific thinker.
Flame flame away, baby girl.
No, it is never reality to think that facts change according to how you feel about them.
And for some odd reason, you think the one fetus became fundamentally different from the other based on your opinion. I can't decide if you're just very childish, or incredibly conceited, to think that your personal feelings have that much power in the world. Do you also think it's possible to kill someone just by wishing they're dead?
Would you like to give an actual argument somewhere in this hateful, flame rich post of yours, or will you simply continue to just flame me, as if I am the issue. Oh right.. to your hate filled type of mindset, I must be THE problem, because I have had an abortion. Wow. Will wonders never cease..
Stick to the topic, will ya.
Okay, NOW I'm torn between thinking you're coldhearted or ignorant. No, actually I always thought you were ignorant on this subject.
Well, that doesn't matter, does it??? This is not really an argument. I know one thing that does matter here- no matter how I feel about you, I know that letting you know, will not help to continue the discussion topics. I am sorry that you never learned this. Well, now ya know. Moving right along..
Are you looking for me to congratulate you on killing a child rather than taking welfare? Because I'm afraid I sort of miss the logic there.
Nope. Oh and you are welcome to think I killed and that I am a child killer and all that bullshit rhetoric that you antis love to spew.. It is all emotional jargon for "I cannot accept it, so therefore I will just call you names". Blah. Been there, heard that.. Can you people please stay on topic?
So you honestly think that because you think money is more important than human life, we agree with you? Are you really unaware that pro-life people contribute huge amounts of money, time, and other donations around the country to try to help women give birth to their children rather than killing them?
Money is important to pay for food, shelter and clothing. Those three things are essential for survival, wouldn't you say?
And pro lifers do not contribute money to the BORN ones. They care only that the fetus is delivered. Beyond that, since their agenda has been fulfilled, they only care to vote no on welfare legislation, and bash single moms. Why single moms on welfare and not serial dads who don't pay child support, will always be a mystery to me.. (Not! its called misogyny. Duh.)
Of course, you will probably come back with more flaming. This is getting boring fast.
Or maybe you are just making wild, unfounded assumptions and accusations because you don't have any sort of grasp at all of who pro-lifers are or what they do. Which isn't surprising, because you've already demonstrated that you know next to nothing about the realities of reproduction and abortion.
I guess I am a fruitcake, now.. Lock me in a rubber room, then, flamer chick... LOL!!!
It is your prerogative to choose not to have children, but you're supposed to do that by not getting pregnant in the first place, not by killing them.
Oh yes- pregnancy is always a conscious decision and all..and is always avoidable, 100% of the time. Sure. /sarcasm
Okay, Gregor Mendel, is there any chance that you could stick to analogies that are actually in the realm of possibility? I realize from your previous posts that you apparently skipped biology class in high school, but even you should know that humans and dogs can't interbreed.
Actually I was in AP classes, and graduated from college with honors.
But keep flaming me, since you are obviously all out of intelligent things to say.
Your argument makes no rational sense.
Seriously? You just tried to argue that humans and dogs can interbreed, and YOU are saying someone ELSE makes no rational sense? Really?
Sure, why wouldn't they be able to? Ever heard of in vitro fertilization?? Freak shows?? Yeah it is definitely possible, babe.
If it is not okay to you to kill anything that is human, then it is irrational to use birth control or condoms, and men should never masturbate. It wastes (destroys) eggs and sperm- which are entirely human- and are the very building blocks of what makes life in the first place.
Hey, Biology Girl. Go look up the words "cell", "tissue", "organ", and "organism". Ponder the differences between them. Contemplate how stupid you sound as an adult, not knowing something so basic that it is taught in junior high. Come back when you don't sound like an uneducated imbecile. I'm just embarrassed for you at this point.
I'm not even bothering to answer the rest of this. I could get a more educated, logical, coherent debate with my 14-year-old. This just makes me sad, and fearful for our nation's future.
Thank GOD for small miracles.
Oh and be sure to click on that link I sent you in one of these posts on the definition of "individual".
I hope you crack open a dictionary of your own sometime.
Since when is psychology NOT medical science??
We are discussing personhood and whether a fetus is alive or is growing but not alive. Again, please try to follow the conversation.
Flame flame away, baby girl.No, you're just an illogical, unscientific thinker.
Actually I was in AP classes, and graduated from college with honors.
☭proletarian☭;1826049 said:Theoretically, a sentient robot should be possible.
True, but as long as we are discussing "programming", and some are discussing a higher being as the great creator and planner of all things.. Then we are also programmed to have a psychological reaction that is maternal or paternal to anything with a human-like face. This is why people want to have and hold little baby chimps- their facial qualities spur a preprogrammed response in us to care for them, because they look very human-like. In fact, to go on about the psychology of sentience- if you met two people in a room, and one was dressed kinda raggedy and was unattractive to you, or was disfigured in the face, you would be FAR less likely to share your time with that person, than the likelihood of you spending your time (or money) on someone who had a more human looking face. This is all preprogrammed psychology, and why we care more for certain people than others, on a primative level.
All of this is completely irrelevant. Living creatures are sentient. They think and are self-aware. Robots are not alive, they do not think, and they are not self-aware. Period.
Tumors are not alive, but they grow. Moles are not alive, but they grow. Diseases are not alive, but they grow.
Okay, really. Does it bother you to sound this uneducated in public? "Cell, tissue, organ, organism." I TOLD you to go look them up before you started flapping your gums, but did you listen? A tumor IS alive. It is living tissue, part of the living organism in which it exists, which is why it grows. Ditto for moles. As for diseases, they are caused by these things we call "micro-organisms". Note the word "organism" in there. They are alive, despite being microscopic.
One could actually venture out and claim that all of the above have some form of sentience, even.. Philosophically speaking, of course. Although, I do think that you lack the capacity to think that broadly on this kind of subject.
One would have to be an elementary-school dropout to do so, since only one of the things listed above is an organism, and it is a micro-organism lacking a brain as we understand it. On the other hand, as a living thing, it is closer to sentient than a robot, which is merely an object.
How is it self contained, exactly? To say that it is self contained completely eliminates the placenta, and umbilical cord, and more importantly, the host mother from the equation. Could you BE more pathological about this? Not being alive is not something that MAKES the organism ALIVE.
How is a fetus self-contained? It has its own separate genetic structure, its own separate brain, nervous system, circulatory system, digestive system, and respiratory system. While he is designed as a symbiote - or a parasite, if you prefer - to take the nourishment and oxygen he requires out of the system of another organism, that does not make him a part of that organism, any more than a tapeworm is a part of your body simply because it is designed to exist inside of it.
The placenta and umbilical cord are biological machines, if you will, akin to the respirators and IV units hospitals use to feed and oxygenate patients and designed to take those things from one place - the mother - and channel them into the fetus. The fetus is self-contained in that all of his systems work and keep him alive and functioning without any input from anyone else. By the scientific/medical definition, a fetus is alive.
If something is not alive, it cannot BE ALIVE. Do you copy???
Sure. And that doesn't apply to a fetus. By your own words, it cannot, because a fetus is undeniably alive when he comes out of his mother's birth canal (barring any calamities), and you just said that "if something is not alive, it cannot be alive".
And NEEDING to be inside of another human being in order to grow to a point where that organism can live on it's own, is an ATTACHMENT, and is a parasitic one indeed, certainly not the quality of an individual. An individual is a SINGULAR term, NOT A PLURAL.
Being designed to live inside the body of another creature does not make something not alive. You can define fetuses as parasites if you wish, although they aren't really since they do no harm to the mother if everything goes well, but that doesn't make them non-living. Bacteria are living organisms, tapeworms are living organisms, the offspring of marsupials in their pouches are living organisms, but all of them are designed to live in an environment of attachment to the body of another creature.
I have no idea where you got this odd definition of "individual", but I suspect from the smell that you pulled it out of your ass.
Sorry, but there's nothing in your little definition that excludes a fetus OR insists that an individual cannot be a parasite/symbiote.
Since when is psychology NOT medical science?? BTW- these are facts. You don't have to appreciate them or agree with them, but because they are FACTS, they do not BEND.
Since it's mostly guesswork, AND that's not the point here, anyway. The point is that studies about how people "feel" about something does not constitute medical fact about what that something actually is. I don't give a damn if you get hundreds of thousands of illiterate boobs like yourself together and you ALL collectively "feel" that a fetus isn't alive, or the moon is made of green cheese, or whatever halfwit fairy tale you're peddling this month. It won't change what a fetus actually is, or the composition of the moon, no matter how hard you squinch your eyes shut and wish for it.
Yep.. just waiting on you to actually do something like that.
Already done, and now I'm beating you to death with them. You want some actual facts on this subject? How about you pull your head out of your psychology studies on how people "feel" about fetuses - and out of your ass, while you're at it - and crack open a book on biology or embryology? Every single thing I've said in this thread on the subject of fetuses and life are verifiable in any number of textbooks.
No.. You have me backwards. I support YOUR FEELINGS. My posts are entirely supportive of whatever the individual in question chooses.
Yeah, but dumbass, unlike you, I'm not talking about my feelings. I'm talking about actual, medical SCIENCE. This isn't your group therapy session, and we're not interested in validating your self-esteem here. This is about FACT, and like it or not, fact is not decided by a vote or by how good it makes you feel.
Yours do not indicate that you support the actual individual involved in all of the life and death decision making that is needed to bring a pregnancy full term. You just want to penalize them all. You are the one basing it all on anger and hate, not me. Get it straight, love.
If the woman in question wants to kill another human being, then you're goddamned right I don't support her, and neither should anyone else, and if you want to define my unwillingness to act as a cheering section for infanticide "anger and hate", then do what you need to do. I don't feel any particular need for your warm, fuzzy approval. In fact, the more you talk, the better I feel about disagreeing with you, because I'm not interested in the approbation of illiterates.
I never said a fetus does not exist. A fetus DOES exist. We are discussing personhood and whether a fetus is alive or is growing but not alive. Again, please try to follow the conversation. Your anger shows.
Learn to read. I didn't say, "the existence of a fetus". I said, "the existence of a fetus's LIFE". This is an incredibly lame attempt to avoid a point you cannot answer from an incredibly lame - and increasingly desperate - debater.
Simple biology. Growth cannot exist without life. Dead things do not grow.
And of course I'm angry. You are representative of what our schools are churning out today, and you are shockingly, appallingly, ignorant and uninformed on the most basic things. Given the state of your "education" - I use that term very loosely - we might just as well have burned the tax money spent on it in the fireplace for warmth. It would have been more useful.
Flame flame away, baby girl.
By all means, cling to your utterly unearned self-esteem. It seems to be the only thing you learned in school.
Would you like to give an actual argument somewhere in this hateful, flame rich post of yours, or will you simply continue to just flame me, as if I am the issue. Oh right.. to your hate filled type of mindset, I must be THE problem, because I have had an abortion. Wow. Will wonders never cease..
While you're having people look up word definitions for you - which you then are utterly unable to understand, apparently - have someone look up "argument", because I guarantee you it doesn't mean "something that agree with me". Just because you don't like my actual arguments or want to admit they're true does not mean they aren't, or that you can just dismiss them and pretend they aren't there.
Please try to remember that other people are reading this thread, and they can see exactly what I can: You're being hit right and left with facts you can't answer, making a complete fool of yourself with remarks that any fifth-grader would know better than to make - dog-human hybrids? Really? - and you're falling back on emotion and buzzwords: "You're just a hater".
You're not the problem because you had an abortion. You're the problem because you're an imbecile, and proud of it. Your abortion is just a symptom of your appalling ignorance. I find it very sad that a baby had to die because you couldn't be bothered to attend biology class school.
Stick to the topic, will ya.
As far as I'm concerned, the topic is now that morons like you shouldn't be allowed to run around with unlicensed uteruses. It's like strapping a gun to a kitten's paw. The sucker goes off, and someone dies because the little animal doesn't know any better.
Well, that doesn't matter, does it??? This is not really an argument. I know one thing that does matter here- no matter how I feel about you, I know that letting you know, will not help to continue the discussion topics. I am sorry that you never learned this. Well, now ya know. Moving right along.
You're right. This isn't an argument. It's a conversational massacre. This is what happens when a person goes to a battle of wits unarmed.
Unfortunately, there is no helping the discussion topic along, because you know nothing about the topic. I might as well be discussing particle physics with you, because you'd be just about as able to hold up your end. All that's left is my unbounded contempt for your proud ignorance.
Nope. Oh and you are welcome to think I killed and that I am a child killer and all that bullshit rhetoric that you antis love to spew.. It is all emotional jargon for "I cannot accept it, so therefore I will just call you names". Blah. Been there, heard that.. Can you people please stay on topic?
If WE are the ones who love to spew that rhetoric, how come YOU are the one actually saying it all the time? Could it be that you're a bit defensive because having to face the facts of the issue is crumbling the little edifice of excuses you've built for yourself? Or it would, if you were bright enough and courageous enough to actually face them?
THIS is all emotional jargon for "I did something stupid and terrible, and I will defend the stupid, incorrect beliefs I based that on with my dying breath. No facts for me, because I cannot ever accept that I was wrong!"
I think we've reached the REAL topic here, which is that you cannot accept any amount of evidence that a fetus is a living, distinct organism. If God Almighty came down from Heaven, tapped you on the shoulder, and said, "Fetuses are living humans", you would still deny it because you have to.
Money is important to pay for food, shelter and clothing. Those three things are essential for survival, wouldn't you say?
Sure. Are they important enough to kill another human being over? No.
And pro lifers do not contribute money to the BORN ones. They care only that the fetus is delivered. Beyond that, since their agenda has been fulfilled, they only care to vote no on welfare legislation, and bash single moms.
Once again, you're wrong. You should just post that on your computer screen somewhere - I AM WRONG AGAIN - and save us all time.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers - Pregnancy Care Centers - Worldwide
This website lists organizations that help pregnant women as an alternative to abortion. They not only help to provide medical care and guidance to get assistance while the woman is pregnant. They also help her with assistance after the baby is born, networking with diaper banks, food banks, clothing banks, and private charities all across the nation. The Catholic Church alone provides about half the private charities for the poor in every community in the country, and we all know how they feel about abortion. In fact, if you go to your local welfare office and ask them for a list of charities in your area to which they refer their clients, you will see that at least half of them are administered by the Catholic Church, all by private donation.
If you bothered to pull your head out of your self-pitying rhetoric of "You just want to demonize me", you would find out that pro-lifers have mobilized in a big way to help the babies they're trying to save.
Why single moms on welfare and not serial dads who don't pay child support, will always be a mystery to me.. (Not! its called misogyny. Duh.)
What's a mystery to me is how you can declaim so positively on subjects about which you know nothing without being embarrassed. If you really think that pro-lifers have no problem with men who make babies they have no intention of caring for, then you're not listening very closely. (Big surprise. It's called "willful ignorance". Duh.) Nevertheless, men don't have abortions, so it's necessary to focus more attention on the people who do. If women would stop spreading their legs at the drop of a hat, it wouldn't matter if men were pigs or not.
Of course, you will probably come back with more flaming. This is getting boring fast.
Of course, you will certainly come back with more laughable ignorance, and you're right. It IS getting boring fast. Why don't you tell us again about human-canine hybrids?
I guess I am a fruitcake, now.. Lock me in a rubber room, then, flamer chick... LOL!!!
What do you mean, "now"? You were declared a fruitcake back when you suggested that humans and dogs can interbreed.
Oh yes- pregnancy is always a conscious decision and all..and is always avoidable, 100% of the time. Sure. /sarcasm
Sexual intercourse is a conscious decision and completely avoidable 99.9% of the time, and as has been established before, a discussion about abortion in America is not about rape. Just because you had a fifth of tequila before screwing doesn't make it involuntary and unavoidable.
Actually I was in AP classes, and graduated from college with honors.
But keep flaming me, since you are obviously all out of intelligent things to say.
I'm with Prole on this one. Who did you have to sleep with? Was that how you got pregnant?
If I were your college, by the way, I'd sue to keep you from telling people you went there, especially after that human-dog thing. If the courts haven't already put you under a gag order to protect the school's reputation, would you mind telling us which one it was? I want to be sure none of my kids go there.
Sure, why wouldn't they be able to? Ever heard of in vitro fertilization?? Freak shows?? Yeah it is definitely possible, babe.
What does in vitro fertilization have to do with it, you dumbass? It's not a matter of getting the sprem to the egg. It's a matter of them being DIFFERENT SPECIES! In fact, they don't even belong to the same GENUS! They can't cross-breed! Oh my dear God in Heaven, I can't believe I'm even having this conversation! As for freak shows, those people are all human, you numbskull! Did you really think that because someone was billed as "Jojo, the dog-faced boy" that actually meant he was half-dog?
I don't know why I'm even bothering to dignify this shit.
Hairy Folk, Hypertrichosis
As you can see, these people are fully human, born of two human parents. They suffer from a medical condition, hypertrichosis.
Thank GOD for small miracles.
Oh and be sure to click on that link I sent you in one of these posts on the definition of "individual".
I hope you crack open a dictionary of your own sometime.
Yes, I'm sure you're very glad that I decided not to treat the rest of your blithering twaddle to the same sort of examination as your dog-human hybrids.
Clicked on your link. Already dealt with it. I hope you crack open a biology textbook of your own sometime. Preferably before that unlicensed uterus has a chance to go off again and kill someone else.
☭proletarian☭;1826060 said:JDummy, do learn how to use the quote button
☭proletarian☭;1826049 said:Theoretically, a sentient robot should be possible.
Perhaps, but at the moment, it does not exist.
☭proletarian☭;1826049 said:Theoretically, a sentient robot should be possible.
Perhaps, but at the moment, it does not exist.
Actually, yes it does.
Self-Aware Robot Can Adapt To Environment | danshope.com
So flame away...
☭proletarian☭;1826005 said:First, psychology is the study of the psyche, not the condition of instinctual responses.
Learn what the fuck you're talking about; anything with 'ology' in the name refers to the study of something.
It is SHALLOWNESS that makes people think that a fetus is or should be treated like an individual self contained person- nothing DEEP about it.
:facepalm:
Science can study the emergence of sentience. How we define 'person' is a matter not of science, but of philosophy. There is a distinction between the two.That is actually proven in clinical peer reviewed psychological studies. So as far as sentience goes- there is far more science involved with your perception of what is a person and what is not.
Remember earlier, when we were talking about you having no fucking clue about basic biology? This is what we're talking about.
See the above.
Did you just say an egg or a sperm is a human? Back to your dearth of any comprehension of biology...
wow... so you're saying a child's not alive until puberty? Once again, we come bvack to you knowing abso-fucking-lutely nothing about biology. You're dumber than Kent Hovind.
Nor can it be done with a woman who's had a hysterectomy (which I sincerely hope you have). Your stupidity is astounding.
Tell that to them when they're calling LifeAlert.
Wrong. Once again we come back to your total lack of knowledge about- well, about anything, it seems. We can breathe liquid, fyi. Feel free to try Google sometime.
Says the moron who just talked about a human-dog hybrid being fully genetically humanOh yeah? You seem to be the one making unscientific claims,
I have been, especially since the part about a dog getting you pregnantCall me crazy
wow...☭proletarian☭;1826049 said:Theoretically, a sentient robot should be possible.
Perhaps, but at the moment, it does not exist.
Actually, yes it does.
Self-Aware Robot Can Adapt To Environment | danshope.com
So flame away...
Ever heard of the American MEDICAL Association?? Well, guess what? Psychology is overseen by them.
PS- by your own logic, Neurology must not be medical either.. Making neurologists just the studiers of something, not medical personnel?? Talk about dumb..
OK- So the next time you tell a person that she has not right to define what is unwelcome in her own body as a non person- you remember that you said that, k.
Ad Hominems are not considered valid arguments in a formal debate
Another Ad Hominem..
Nope.. not saying that at all.
But the woman who had a hysterectomy had the ability to reproduce,
Oh yeah? FETUSES can breathe liquid- but it is not BREATHING at ALL. It is merely an exercising of the lung organs in preparation to begin their lives.
Good grief- you act like you have never heard of drown victims. There is definitely something wrong with you.
I never said it was fully genetically human.. But that doesn't make it a non human. Do you claim that something that is half human is not human?
Describe, then, how this could NOT POSSIBLY happen. [/quote]I have been, especially since the part about a dog getting you pregnantCall me crazy
All of this is completely irrelevant. Living creatures are sentient. They think and are self-aware. Robots are not alive, they do not think, and they are not self-aware. Period.
Tumors are not alive, but they grow. Moles are not alive, but they grow. Diseases are not alive, but they grow.
Okay, really. Does it bother you to sound this uneducated in public? "Cell, tissue, organ, organism." I TOLD you to go look them up before you started flapping your gums, but did you listen? A tumor IS alive. It is living tissue, part of the living organism in which it exists, which is why it grows. Ditto for moles. As for diseases, they are caused by these things we call "micro-organisms". Note the word "organism" in there. They are alive, despite being microscopic.
So, if you think that all human cells are alive, then it stands to reason that all human sperm and egg cells, based on their potential to become people, should have rights.
Brilliant...
Sorry, hun, but not everything gets those rights. Otherwise, we would all be on death row, every time a finger hits the keyboard. We lose millions of cells every time we touch something. Those poor, poor little babies. AWWWW..
One would have to be an elementary-school dropout to do so, since only one of the things listed above is an organism, and it is a micro-organism lacking a brain as we understand it. On the other hand, as a living thing, it is closer to sentient than a robot, which is merely an object.
Self-Aware Robot Can Adapt To Environment | danshope.com
Thats okay. I forgive you for being narrow about this. You are always welcome to think of a fetus as a person. I don't. Suck it, because I also do not give a rat's ass what your feelings towards me are, lol.. They are merely ad hominem attacks in lieu of an actual argument of logic.
How is a fetus self-contained? It has its own separate genetic structure, its own separate brain, nervous system, circulatory system, digestive system, and respiratory system. While he is designed as a symbiote - or a parasite, if you prefer - to take the nourishment and oxygen he requires out of the system of another organism, that does not make him a part of that organism, any more than a tapeworm is a part of your body simply because it is designed to exist inside of it.
No- it circulates the mother's blood, also. It gets its oxygen from the mother. It has a 100% dependence on the survival of the mother, and the health and well being of the mother, to survive its gestational period of growth.
And, if a tapeworm was WITHIN the confines of my body, it has placed itself under MY jurisdiction. That means that any part of my body that it has holed up in, is STILL my body. Since I have to take care of my body, then I have to take care of all parts of it, and rather than picking and choosing, I would opt to have instruments or medication introduced to rid me of the tapeworm. Same goes for a fetus that is unwanted. It is still within the confines of MY uterus. My uterus does not suddenly belong to the fetus. The fetus does not have property rights over my body. To say otherwise is preposterous.
It is subjected to the health and well being of my uterus, as well. If my uterus does not want it, it will dispose of the fetus/ embryo naturally.
Also, the uterus, even the healthiest ones, are not exactly the easiest places to adapt to, and lock on. That is (again) why 30% of all pregnancies will end in miscarriage before the woman ever knew she was pregnant.
The placenta and umbilical cord are biological machines, if you will, akin to the respirators and IV units hospitals use to feed and oxygenate patients and designed to take those things from one place - the mother - and channel them into the fetus. The fetus is self-contained in that all of his systems work and keep him alive and functioning without any input from anyone else. By the scientific/medical definition, a fetus is alive.
No a fetus is contained within the woman's self, because it does not have property rights to the WOMAN'S uterus. It does not have any guarantees that the woman will continue breathing throughout the 9 months of gestation.. It does not have any guarantees that she will not die or be seriously injured. It is completely dependent on her well being, and as such, cannot be considered a self contained individual.
Show me one fetus whose mama died at 28 weeks gestation, and still continued to a full term pregnancy.
Hence- it is NOT self contained. It DOES need the mother's biological input. Or, it will not survive to birth. THIS is a medical fact.
Sure. And that doesn't apply to a fetus. By your own words, it cannot, because a fetus is undeniably alive when he comes out of his mother's birth canal (barring any calamities), and you just said that "if something is not alive, it cannot be alive".
It is not alive before birth, as I have so eloquently described, rinsed, and repeated several times now, for you.
Your claim was that dead or alive it is not any less alive or less of an individual. Sorry, but dead things are not alive. That is a fact, honey buns.
Something that needs to be inside of another thing, to be able to grow, is not an individual. An individual is capable of property rights.. Fetuses do not have property rights.
But again- feel free to think of all fetuses that way, if you want to. I am not bashing you for thinking of fetuses as people, for YOURSELF, I am arguing for allowing everyone to have property rights over their own bodies, and not be pressured and abused into making decisions that force them through 9 months of gestation, weight gain, and painful child birth, all because you cannot accept that other people might not think of their fetuses as people. Do you understand?
Being designed to live inside the body of another creature does not make something not alive. You can define fetuses as parasites if you wish, although they aren't really since they do no harm to the mother if everything goes well, but that doesn't make them non-living. Bacteria are living organisms, tapeworms are living organisms, the offspring of marsupials in their pouches are living organisms, but all of them are designed to live in an environment of attachment to the body of another creature.
Fetuses do no harm? What??? Don't you know that pregnancy raises blood pressure, causes a great deal of weight gain, scars and mutilates the body, often tears the vagina, causes morning sickness, which gives women a whole plethora of other problems- dental issues, esophagal erosion, etc.. And I am sorry you never heard of gestational diabetes or ectopic pregnancies. Something close to one in a hundred women die during childbirth.
You are saying that these things are not harmful to the mother???
Wow.
I have no idea where you got this odd definition of "individual", but I suspect from the smell that you pulled it out of your ass.
Flame, flame away.
Sorry, but there's nothing in your little definition that excludes a fetus OR insists that an individual cannot be a parasite/symbiote.
OK. Well, you can call that an argument, I reckon. An individual is a singular person. Not two people living within one body.
Since it's mostly guesswork, AND that's not the point here, anyway. The point is that studies about how people "feel" about something does not constitute medical fact about what that something actually is. I don't give a damn if you get hundreds of thousands of illiterate boobs like yourself together and you ALL collectively "feel" that a fetus isn't alive, or the moon is made of green cheese, or whatever halfwit fairy tale you're peddling this month. It won't change what a fetus actually is, or the composition of the moon, no matter how hard you squinch your eyes shut and wish for it.
OK This is not about my FEELINGS. I never once said I feel this way or that way. Your posts are all very much that way, in the sense that you continuously show your personal vindiction for me, just because you cannot agree to disagree on when personhood or life begins.
No matter how much YOU wish, not everyone is going to agree with you on this subject. I hate to burst your bubble, but that is reality.
Already done, and now I'm beating you to death with them. You want some actual facts on this subject? How about you pull your head out of your psychology studies on how people "feel" about fetuses - and out of your ass, while you're at it - and crack open a book on biology or embryology? Every single thing I've said in this thread on the subject of fetuses and life are verifiable in any number of textbooks.
Oh wow, I mention ONE study on psychology, because it is how we relate to the human looking face (including primates) and you start talking about me giving you all kinds of bullshit information on FEELINGS???
Yikes... I would just really REALLY like for you to try to keep up with the conversation, for once. This is SAD.
Yeah, but dumbass, unlike you, I'm not talking about my feelings. I'm talking about actual, medical SCIENCE. This isn't your group therapy session, and we're not interested in validating your self-esteem here. This is about FACT, and like it or not, fact is not decided by a vote or by how good it makes you feel.
You have yet to post anything of medical relevance, or logic, really. Mostly, you just flame, because you are pissed off at my logic and facts, and cannot refute them. Boo, hoo! Here have a tissue- Then take a breather, and come back when you are ready to actually DISCUSS this, like a civilized human being would.
If the woman in question wants to kill another human being, then you're goddamned right I don't support her, and neither should anyone else, and if you want to define my unwillingness to act as a cheering section for infanticide "anger and hate", then do what you need to do. I don't feel any particular need for your warm, fuzzy approval. In fact, the more you talk, the better I feel about disagreeing with you, because I'm not interested in the approbation of illiterates.
Thats cool, Fuck it- whatever- But she supports every choice you make, no matter how ridiculous you are in coming to that decision. If you want to go ahead and have 20 babies, feel free. Maybe she doesn't.
More than half of all abortions are had by women who already have children. But yeah- I guess they are all illiterate dickheaded bitches too.
Damn the luck.
Learn to read. I didn't say, "the existence of a fetus". I said, "the existence of a fetus's LIFE". This is an incredibly lame attempt to avoid a point you cannot answer from an incredibly lame - and increasingly desperate - debater.
Honey, I am not the one throwing ad hominems left and right. I don't even know what you look like, but I can SEE the steam coming out of your ears.
Fetuses are not alive- so there is no existence of life there. The only thing left is the fetus itself. Growing and alive are not interchangable.
Simple biology. Growth cannot exist without life. Dead things do not grow.
On a very basic, third grade level, sure.
And no, of course dead things do not grow. =)
But this is not a question of a fetus who is growing being dead. It is about the fetus not being alive YET.
Diamonds GROW, lots of minerals grow, as do mountains, and bubbles.. but they are NOT LIVING THINGS...They are NOT alive.
And of course I'm angry. You are representative of what our schools are churning out today, and you are shockingly, appallingly, ignorant and uninformed on the most basic things. Given the state of your "education" - I use that term very loosely - we might just as well have burned the tax money spent on it in the fireplace for warmth. It would have been more useful.
OK Be mad.. Its normal for someone like you to hate on others for posting facts and relevant topics in regards to hot button issues like this one.
I have a 147 IQ, and am college educated. I also happen to know how to debate an issue, without blowing my top.
And the last thing you need is any more heat. You are already likened to a volcano.
By all means, cling to your utterly unearned self-esteem. It seems to be the only thing you learned in school.
:bows, curtsies:
Flame, baby, flame...
While you're having people look up word definitions for you - which you then are utterly unable to understand, apparently - have someone look up "argument", because I guarantee you it doesn't mean "something that agree with me". Just because you don't like my actual arguments or want to admit they're true does not mean they aren't, or that you can just dismiss them and pretend they aren't there.
You don't give arguments. You flame.
Please try to remember that other people are reading this thread, and they can see exactly what I can: You're being hit right and left with facts you can't answer, making a complete fool of yourself with remarks that any fifth-grader would know better than to make - dog-human hybrids? Really? - and you're falling back on emotion and buzzwords: "You're just a hater".
Hmmm... Well, I am quite sure that a hybrid dog and human is entirely possible. It is okay, though, if you don't believe it. I will not blow my top with you, for not believing factual biological information.
You're not the problem because you had an abortion. You're the problem because you're an imbecile, and proud of it. Your abortion is just a symptom of your appalling ignorance. I find it very sad that a baby had to die because you couldn't be bothered to attend biology class school.
LMAO!!
Flame your happy ass away... I had an abortion because I did not want to be pregnant, and it is my right.
Sorry you hate that FACT so much.
As far as I'm concerned, the topic is now that morons like you shouldn't be allowed to run around with unlicensed uteruses. It's like strapping a gun to a kitten's paw. The sucker goes off, and someone dies because the little animal doesn't know any better.
Okay..
You're right. This isn't an argument. It's a conversational massacre. This is what happens when a person goes to a battle of wits unarmed.
Unfortunately, there is no helping the discussion topic along, because you know nothing about the topic. I might as well be discussing particle physics with you, because you'd be just about as able to hold up your end. All that's left is my unbounded contempt for your proud ignorance.
OK. Im ignorant, and you do nothing but flame my factual posts because YOU cant understand that a woman's uterus is HER PROPERTY, and not property of: fetus.
Thats cool.. Stay in school..
If WE are the ones who love to spew that rhetoric, how come YOU are the one actually saying it all the time? Could it be that you're a bit defensive because having to face the facts of the issue is crumbling the little edifice of excuses you've built for yourself? Or it would, if you were bright enough and courageous enough to actually face them?
Blah blah blah.. Do you have ANYTHING of merit to add to this discussion???
THIS is all emotional jargon for "I did something stupid and terrible, and I will defend the stupid, incorrect beliefs I based that on with my dying breath. No facts for me, because I cannot ever accept that I was wrong!"
I used to be pro life.. I know how angry you are. I forgive you. I don't need your approval, though. =)
I think we've reached the REAL topic here, which is that you cannot accept any amount of evidence that a fetus is a living, distinct organism. If God Almighty came down from Heaven, tapped you on the shoulder, and said, "Fetuses are living humans", you would still deny it because you have to.
He wouldn't. God is pro choice, too. He breathes life into souls, making them to become a LIVING soul. That means he GIVES life through his breath of air. Study the bible for once. God also says that it is better to bite your tongue than to say awful abusive things to people. Maybe one day he will tap your shoulder and remind you of that.
Sure. Are they important enough to kill another human being over? No.
Wow. Misogyny at its lowest.
Once again, you're wrong. You should just post that on your computer screen somewhere - I AM WRONG AGAIN - and save us all time.
Crisis Pregnancy Centers - Pregnancy Care Centers - Worldwide
Go to one of them with some urine in your purse from a pregnant chick. See that it takes an hour to get results back, and all they do is just scare the dickens out of people, and tell them they can go to hell for an abortion, and how they coerce people into a full term pregnancy that they do not want. See how many of these centers only have unlicensed volunteers who are not allowed to diagnose pregnancy in the first place.
You have been given a sugar coated understanding of CPCs. They are some of the most oppressive, hate filled places on Earth.
This website lists organizations that help pregnant women as an alternative to abortion. They not only help to provide medical care and guidance to get assistance while the woman is pregnant. They also help her with assistance after the baby is born, networking with diaper banks, food banks, clothing banks, and private charities all across the nation. The Catholic Church alone provides about half the private charities for the poor in every community in the country, and we all know how they feel about abortion. In fact, if you go to your local welfare office and ask them for a list of charities in your area to which they refer their clients, you will see that at least half of them are administered by the Catholic Church, all by private donation.
Again, you got the sugar coated end of the information channel on this. Little do you know..
If you bothered to pull your head out of your self-pitying rhetoric of "You just want to demonize me", you would find out that pro-lifers have mobilized in a big way to help the babies they're trying to save.
Sure they have.. Sure.
What's a mystery to me is how you can declaim so positively on subjects about which you know nothing without being embarrassed. If you really think that pro-lifers have no problem with men who make babies they have no intention of caring for, then you're not listening very closely. (Big surprise. It's called "willful ignorance". Duh.) Nevertheless, men don't have abortions, so it's necessary to focus more attention on the people who do. If women would stop spreading their legs at the drop of a hat, it wouldn't matter if men were pigs or not.
Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. It is not our responsibility to "be the brakes", chick. Men have self control, just as much as we do. It still takes two to tango. It is not women's fault that men don't pay child support or act like dads. That is the fault of the men. Face fucking facts.
Blah the rest is just flaming and spewing insults.. I gotta go.. You are now on my ignore list. Have a nice day, flame girl.
