Federal raid on Gibson Guitars....retaliatory harassment?

[freedombecki]

The administration raids a guitar company, seizes inventory, and doesn't provide documentation why, but conservatives are just being paranoid. Is that the jist of what I'm hearing?

Is there anything this administration can do that cause people to open their eyes?

I'm sorry to hear it too.

It's unfortunate businesses aren't given incentives to improve or correct errors but instead get the criminal treatment.

Things could be just as effective with incentives instead of expropriations.

But what would I know?

 

[tinydancer]

You're the "real Deal"? What the fuck does that mean? Prove myself NOW? Who the fuck are you? Guess what.... most working musicians also have to Work a real job too.

Very strange phrasing sir.

Why wouldn't you just come out and say you're a player? My ex and I earned a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno with our promotion company. He's the player not me. I did the promo. I used to track airplay for record companies as well as organize promotional events. And managed bands.

I am the real deal. Sorry but your phrasing was truly bizarre. And btw, that's very nice what you did for your mother.

Congratulations on your stellar career, tinydancer. It sounds like you're one of the best in the industry.

lol

In my time, I think I was one of the best

Phone calls coast to coast to AM and FM depending on who I was handling. Bell Canada was really profitable at the time. Heheheh. Their share holders owe me.

No email. Can you imagine?

Letters on PAPER and yes I am so sorry I probably took out a couple of rain forests.

A telex machine in my dining room to see everybodys playlists for the week. Telex was pre fax machine.

Telling my eldest daughter not to cry because I was on the phone to Flin Flon and I'll put a bandaid on her boo boo in a minute.

I was a different kind of stay at home mom.



Where's my walker? Keeeeeeeding. Still can rock my face off.

 

[Charles_Main]

I think the thing being lost on most people about this story is. Why the hell is the wood from India illegal to Import? Regulations? Maybe Gibson should open a factory in India and make the Instruments they want to out of that wood there? lol I mean silly regulations like this are one of the reasons Companies move jobs over seas.

 

[editec]

Because Gibson supposedly violated Indian law that only Indian workers are allowed to finish the rosewood fret boards that are being exported. Nice how Eric Holder and "Team Obama" work so hard to protect bogus rights of Indian workers while they put Americans out of work.

Okay...but that is NOT retaliation, however.

A stupid law, perhaps, but your use of the word retaliation suggested that enhforcement of this stupid law is payback for some grievance.

Thanks for replying though and clearing that up for me.

I have no idea "why" this raid took place. Neither does the President of Gibson. Bottom line is the Feds swooped in and seized private property valued at over a million dollars and sent the workers at this factory home and then didn't charge anyone with a crime. At the same time they're asking for a "stay" on a court case from two years earlier where they did the same thing to Gibson. Eric Holder is a world class horses ass. Of course that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone since he was the guy behind the Marc Rich pardon by Bill Clinton. That alone should have precluded him from ever holding a high level post in government.

Understood. YOu do not know why the raid took place.

That's why I questioned the use of the word RETALIANTION.

Retaliation implies there was a motive.

What we do know is that the wood in use was some kind of violation of a TRADE AGREEMENT.

THAT would be the motive, I guess.

Sounds like a screwy law to me, too.

But then the US industry is constantly being screwed by such goofy laws, isn't it?

That's why the US TRADE IMBALANCE is so high.

That is why million of Americans can't find decent paying work, too.

 

[tinydancer]

Interesting. Even though they have been raided before, no charges have ever been laid and Gibson is actually suing the government to retrieve material seized in another raid a couple of years ago.

Can you imagine an overzealous custom official seizing a musician's guitar?

Great piece of this situation by Bob Barr. And he explains the 100 year old law.

One of the laws at play here is the hundred-year old Lacey Act, passed during the “Progressive Era,” and intended to promote conservation and as a crackdown on illegal trafficking in wildlife. The law also makes it a crime for a company to violate the laws or regulations of other countries. In this particular case, Gibson’s attorneys surmise it may be the law of India they are charged with misinterpreting or violating.

The Justice Department apparently believes the wood in question, used to construct fret boards for Gibson’s popular instruments, was imported from India without having first been “finished” by Indian workers; actions that could be considered a violation of that country’s byzantine legal code.

But here's the strange part. No charges have ever been laid. And the government still refuses to return the property. Retaliation for the lawsuit brought by Gibson? Intimidation? Vindictiveness? Harassment?

From the article:

Unfortunately, this is not the first time Gibson has been subjected to the overreaching, punitive arm of the federal government. In 2009, the Nashville facility was raided in similar fashion, based on accusations that rosewood imported from Madagascar and used in guitars, came from illegal logging.

And, despite the fact that to this day, the government has not filed formal charges against Gibson, it has refused to return the company’s property.



Here's the link to the whole piece.

Gibson Guitar to Uncle Sam



And this is really crazy check out the quote from the WSJ

The Wall Street Journal notes that owners of vintage guitars made out of now-banned or regulated woods had “better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent – not to mention face fines and prosecution.”

 

[JamesInFlorida]

This is very strange.

Been playing for 15 years now (I love Les Paul's btw), and haven't heard of anything like this. Even when I briefly worked for Dean Guitars.

Not saying Gibson's in the wrong (they're obviously not), the whole story's kind of weird though.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

Well, I for one am so very glad that Barry and his sidekick Eric, from the Justice Department, is on this very critical issue. Illegal logging in Madagascar?? Why, in the morning when I wake up, I have to tell you that I have trouble eating my Captain Crunch if I think just one more log, taken by a family of starving natives, has been illegally imported into the United States. and that log is now being loaded onto a bandsaw that will mercilessly carve planks that Gibson (an evil corporation for you lefties) will use to build guitars from. I mean think of it people!!!! Wake up, this is a critical issue!!!

Imagine the damage done to the psychology of this nation if one more street musician is seen by our children playing a Gibson guitar made from endangered Madagascar rosewood!!! The hysteria could be worse than 9/11!!! Why the public schools would be inundated with requests for counseling... crisis teams would have to respond to those elementary schools closest to the point where the street musician was playing. And imagine if that musician was trying to do something like Metallica or even Journey on a guitar alone! FEMA should immediately start to build staging areas so that they can respond to this emergency! Good Lord people, the humanity of it all! It could rival the footage of those people jumping from tower 1!!

Operation Fast and Furious proved Mr. Holder's ability to lock onto a problem and propose 'unique' responses to those problems. I think that he's got the pulse of this nation and is leading his troops in such a way as to keep us all safe from harm.

I must say that I was not aware of the Justice's department swift and decisive action against Gibson in protecting that illegal rosewood, but since I am, I must say that I will sleep much better at night and now I am sure that I will be able to eat my Captain Crunch calmly and in a much more relaxed atmosphere. I think the only thing that would be better, is if Barry would appoint Vice President Biden to oversee a commission on this issue, because, well, we all know that "Nobody messes with Joe!"

 

[iamwhatiseem]

have not returned nor given Gibson officials a statement or explanation as to what reason,

Wrong, the Feds announced they were there because of suspicion that Gibson was using illegally imported wood from India.

I do Still think this raid was pure BS, and Retaliation, but I do like to see the facts laid out right. They clearly did tell Gibson why they were there.

Um...did you not read past the comma?
I said "as to what reason, specifically for..."
When authorities seize property you have a number of legal rights.
Your first line of defence is a judge...where of course authorities have to obtain a warrent from after a judge has determined they have sufficient cause.
Obviously here they did - however - according to Gibson the Feds have not answered repeated request for what they found and when they can get their property back. You have a 100% legal right to obtain from authorities exactly what they found against you in an investigation...unless of course that investigation is ongoing - however - authorities are under a limitation set by a judge under what statute they seized your property under - how long authorities can hold it....apparently it is passed that time period and Gibson has not received their property back or can even get anyone to talk with them.
This is against the law. The Feds themselves are the ones breaking a law.

 

[tinydancer]

Well, I for one am so very glad that Barry and his sidekick Eric, from the Justice Department, is on this very critical issue. Illegal logging in Madagascar?? Why, in the morning when I wake up, I have to tell you that I have trouble eating my Captain Crunch if I think just one more log, taken by a family of starving natives, has been illegally imported into the United States. and that log is now being loaded onto a bandsaw that will mercilessly carve planks that Gibson (an evil corporation for you lefties) will use to build guitars from. I mean think of it people!!!! Wake up, this is a critical issue!!!

Imagine the damage done to the psychology of this nation if one more street musician is seen by our children playing a Gibson guitar made from endangered Madagascar rosewood!!! The hysteria could be worse than 9/11!!! Why the public schools would be inundated with requests for counseling... crisis teams would have to respond to those elementary schools closest to the point where the street musician was playing. And imagine if that musician was trying to do something like Metallica or even Journey on a guitar alone! FEMA should immediately start to build staging areas so that they can respond to this emergency! Good Lord people, the humanity of it all! It could rival the footage of those people jumping from tower 1!!

Operation Fast and Furious proved Mr. Holder's ability to lock onto a problem and propose 'unique' responses to those problems. I think that he's got the pulse of this nation and is leading his troops in such a way as to keep us all safe from harm.

I must say that I was not aware of the Justice's department swift and decisive action against Gibson in protecting that illegal rosewood, but since I am, I must say that I will sleep much better at night and now I am sure that I will be able to eat my Captain Crunch calmly and in a much more relaxed atmosphere. I think the only thing that would be better, is if Barry would appoint Vice President Biden to oversee a commission on this issue, because, well, we all know that "Nobody messes with Joe!"

Bravo!!

Well done.

 

[oreo]

This is pretty bizarre and scary. What else is the Obama administration doing in secret?

Federal raid on Gibson Guitars--retaliatory harassment? - National Conservative | Examiner.com

It's good to be King!

This has got to be coming from all of Obama's new regulatory demands on business. They run in there like that looking for certain "wood" products--is regulatory. If they did new sheep herder regulation--why would it surprise anyone that they wouldn't do this?

 

[Steelplate]

Wait a minute here.

You are involved in the "guitar scene"

Holy shit are you in music or not? What the fuck here? I'm the real deal. What type of shit are you? Prove yourself now.

You're the "real Deal"? What the fuck does that mean? Prove myself NOW? Who the fuck are you? Guess what.... most working musicians also have to Work a real job too.

Very strange phrasing sir.

Why wouldn't you just come out and say you're a player? My ex and I earned a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno with our promotion company. He's the player not me. I did the promo. I used to track airplay for record companies as well as organize promotional events. And managed bands.

I am the real deal. Sorry but your phrasing was truly bizarre. And btw, that's very nice what you did for your mother.

My phrasing? You mean that I am into the "guitar scene", or however I put it? I kind of chose my words carefully on that... Just because I'm a player doesn't necessarily mean I am knowledgeable about guitars. I probably should have said something like "in addition to being a player, I am also a guitar geek.

As far as your success, congratulations! That's cool that you can make a living off of something you are passionate about. Very cool.

I love playing for people and I am pretty good at it in my "small pond" of an area. Our trio did play in bigger venues a few times(some festivals), but mostly.. we play in local bars and coffee houses. We all have full time jobs and families, so we aren't into doing it full time... we like to work about 2-3 times/month.

Thanks... it was the one thing I could think of to have one keepsake from my mom. The reason I chose a D35 was when I first started learning to play, my first guitar instructor had one. I thought the 3 piece back was beautiful and the sound was incredible. I knew it wasn't the ideal Blues guitar, as most acoustic blues players prefer a smaller bodied(00-000 size), and tend to like Mahogany over Rosewood... But I am pretty much a flatpick using rhythm player and can only barely play a lead through a 12 bar blues pattern... so the D35's strong bass response and big sound works well for what I do. My buddy is an excellent fingerpicker and does almost all of the soloing. So I do all the rhythm, do most of the singing, and he does the solos and sings backup... we also have a pretty good Blues harp player. He's excellent when we do the Chicago style shuffles, but when it comes to the Piedmont style country blues... he's still learning. Learned how to play like Little Walter and guys like that, but folks like Sonny Terry or Phil Wiggins is pretty new to him.

Ok... I'm probably boring the rest of the board... so I'll shut up now.

 

[tinydancer]

You're the "real Deal"? What the fuck does that mean? Prove myself NOW? Who the fuck are you? Guess what.... most working musicians also have to Work a real job too.

Very strange phrasing sir.

Why wouldn't you just come out and say you're a player? My ex and I earned a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno with our promotion company. He's the player not me. I did the promo. I used to track airplay for record companies as well as organize promotional events. And managed bands.

I am the real deal. Sorry but your phrasing was truly bizarre. And btw, that's very nice what you did for your mother.

My phrasing? You mean that I am into the "guitar scene", or however I put it? I kind of chose my words carefully on that... Just because I'm a player doesn't necessarily mean I am knowledgeable about guitars. I probably should have said something like "in addition to being a player, I am also a guitar geek.

As far as your success, congratulations! That's cool that you can make a living off of something you are passionate about. Very cool.

I love playing for people and I am pretty good at it in my "small pond" of an area. Our trio did play in bigger venues a few times(some festivals), but mostly.. we play in local bars and coffee houses. We all have full time jobs and families, so we aren't into doing it full time... we like to work about 2-3 times/month.

Thanks... it was the one thing I could think of to have one keepsake from my mom. The reason I chose a D35 was when I first started learning to play, my first guitar instructor had one. I thought the 3 piece back was beautiful and the sound was incredible. I knew it wasn't the ideal Blues guitar, as most acoustic blues players prefer a smaller bodied(00-000 size), and tend to like Mahogany over Rosewood... But I am pretty much a flatpick using rhythm player and can only barely play a lead through a 12 bar blues pattern... so the D35's strong bass response and big sound works well for what I do. My buddy is an excellent fingerpicker and does almost all of the soloing. So I do all the rhythm, do most of the singing, and he does the solos and sings backup... we also have a pretty good Blues harp player. He's excellent when we do the Chicago style shuffles, but when it comes to the Piedmont style country blues... he's still learning. Learned how to play like Little Walter and guys like that, but folks like Sonny Terry or Phil Wiggins is pretty new to him.

Ok... I'm probably boring the rest of the board... so I'll shut up now.

I'm glad I was able to catch you today. I wanted to apologize for calling you a liar. I was completely out of line; I've met more than my share of b.s. artists on line, but I had no right to judge you because I misinterpreted your post.

I was going to pm you earlier, but I insulted you on the open boards and I felt I should apologize on the open boards.

Just because I was having a couple of horrid days (just lost one of my favorite rescue cats) that is absolutely no excuse for me jumping down your throat.

So please accept my apology. I am truly sorry.

Yours,

td

 

[Fyght]

Liberals are always attacking freedom and prosperity.

 

[Steelplate]

Very strange phrasing sir.

Why wouldn't you just come out and say you're a player? My ex and I earned a gold, platinum, double platinum and a Juno with our promotion company. He's the player not me. I did the promo. I used to track airplay for record companies as well as organize promotional events. And managed bands.

I am the real deal. Sorry but your phrasing was truly bizarre. And btw, that's very nice what you did for your mother.

My phrasing? You mean that I am into the "guitar scene", or however I put it? I kind of chose my words carefully on that... Just because I'm a player doesn't necessarily mean I am knowledgeable about guitars. I probably should have said something like "in addition to being a player, I am also a guitar geek.

As far as your success, congratulations! That's cool that you can make a living off of something you are passionate about. Very cool.

I love playing for people and I am pretty good at it in my "small pond" of an area. Our trio did play in bigger venues a few times(some festivals), but mostly.. we play in local bars and coffee houses. We all have full time jobs and families, so we aren't into doing it full time... we like to work about 2-3 times/month.

Thanks... it was the one thing I could think of to have one keepsake from my mom. The reason I chose a D35 was when I first started learning to play, my first guitar instructor had one. I thought the 3 piece back was beautiful and the sound was incredible. I knew it wasn't the ideal Blues guitar, as most acoustic blues players prefer a smaller bodied(00-000 size), and tend to like Mahogany over Rosewood... But I am pretty much a flatpick using rhythm player and can only barely play a lead through a 12 bar blues pattern... so the D35's strong bass response and big sound works well for what I do. My buddy is an excellent fingerpicker and does almost all of the soloing. So I do all the rhythm, do most of the singing, and he does the solos and sings backup... we also have a pretty good Blues harp player. He's excellent when we do the Chicago style shuffles, but when it comes to the Piedmont style country blues... he's still learning. Learned how to play like Little Walter and guys like that, but folks like Sonny Terry or Phil Wiggins is pretty new to him.

Ok... I'm probably boring the rest of the board... so I'll shut up now.

I'm glad I was able to catch you today. I wanted to apologize for calling you a liar. I was completely out of line; I've met more than my share of b.s. artists on line, but I had no right to judge you because I misinterpreted your post.

I was going to pm you earlier, but I insulted you on the open boards and I felt I should apologize on the open boards.

Just because I was having a couple of horrid days (just lost one of my favorite rescue cats) that is absolutely no excuse for me jumping down your throat.

So please accept my apology. I am truly sorry.

You

td

As I said in our PM conversation... I understand. This type of medium of communication gets heated sometimes. It's all good. Sorry about your cat... It sucks losing a member of the family, no matter how many legs it has. That was one of the other items I kept of my mother's. A Yorkshire terrier named Penny. She was already pretty old when my Mom passed away and she had medical problems(seizure disorder, mainly). When I finally put her down 2 years ago, it was like my last link to my mom died... I took it hard.

 

[driveby]

Which party does Gibson make political contributions to?

 

[Richard-H]

It's obvious that at least when it comes to understanding guitars and woods, the writer of that article is an idiot.

He keeps talking about frets made from wood!

Got new for him: frets are always made from metal. Really good frets are made from stainless steel.

So for starters he doesn't know what he's talking about.

If anyone is interested in the woods used to make guitars, visit Carvin.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio.

The fact is that many choice woods used for making guitars are nearly extinct and are illegal to harvest per international law.

In particular brazilian rosewood, which is THE CHOICE wood for making acoustic guitar backs, is nearly non-existent becuase of over-harvesting. There are major efforts to revitalize the species, but last I read about it ws doubtful. It is an incredibly beautiful wood both visually and acoustically.

I'm sure that not many of you are up on guitar woods, but I assure you that the Gibson company is. There is a very stroong likelihood that Gibson was using some illegal type of wood (Note: certain gutar finishes are also illegal nowadays).

So it sound to me that the feds were just doing there job. Not a Presidential affair.

If Gibson was using illegal woods, they should be prosecuted - and they know it.

My Fender Stratocaster - Alder Body, Maple Neck, ebony fretboard
My Washburn Semi-Hollow - All mahogany body & neck, rosewood fretboard
My ESP Bass - Alder Body, Spalted Maple top, maple neck, rosewood fretboard
My Washburn acoustic - Quilted maple back & sides, spruce top, maple neck, rosewood fretboard
My Carvin classical - mahogany body & neck, flamed koa top, ebony fretboard.


Yup the guitar industry & guitarists worldwide are very wood conscientiuos!

 

[Steelplate]

He probably meant the fretboard... at least that's the way I took it. As an Acoustic Player, I am a Martin man, tried and true. However, if Martin was doing something shady...I'd want them prosecuted.

Those rainforest woods are very scarce... between Luthiers(guitar makers) and mass burnings... Once great tonewoods for acoustics are old stock only anymore. You can't touch a Brazilian Rosewood Guitar for less than $5k-10K... (Blueridge BR-263 and 283 come to mind). almost all of the Brazilian RW available is from people who have been hoarding it.

Deforestation sucks.

 

[tinydancer]

Brazil has just butchered their rainforests for bio fuels. I don't want to take the thread in a different direction but eco scientists have been begging Brazillian officials to stop razing the forests to grow sugar cane and palm oil for years now.

I've seen pictures of the sheer devastation of these forests and it's revolting.

The problem I have with these raids on Gibson is that no charges have been laid and the Feds are holding property seized from 2 years ago and Gibson is having to sue to get the property returned.

 

[tinydancer]

It's obvious that at least when it comes to understanding guitars and woods, the writer of that article is an idiot.

He keeps talking about frets made from wood!

Got new for him: frets are always made from metal. Really good frets are made from stainless steel.

So for starters he doesn't know what he's talking about.

If anyone is interested in the woods used to make guitars, visit Carvin.com - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio.

The fact is that many choice woods used for making guitars are nearly extinct and are illegal to harvest per international law.

In particular brazilian rosewood, which is THE CHOICE wood for making acoustic guitar backs, is nearly non-existent becuase of over-harvesting. There are major efforts to revitalize the species, but last I read about it ws doubtful. It is an incredibly beautiful wood both visually and acoustically.

I'm sure that not many of you are up on guitar woods, but I assure you that the Gibson company is. There is a very stroong likelihood that Gibson was using some illegal type of wood (Note: certain gutar finishes are also illegal nowadays).

So it sound to me that the feds were just doing there job. Not a Presidential affair.

If Gibson was using illegal woods, they should be prosecuted - and they know it.

My Fender Stratocaster - Alder Body, Maple Neck, ebony fretboard
My Washburn Semi-Hollow - All mahogany body & neck, rosewood fretboard
My ESP Bass - Alder Body, Spalted Maple top, maple neck, rosewood fretboard
My Washburn acoustic - Quilted maple back & sides, spruce top, maple neck, rosewood fretboard
My Carvin classical - mahogany body & neck, flamed koa top, ebony fretboard.


Yup the guitar industry & guitarists worldwide are very wood conscientiuos!

Out of curiousity, do you know if they actually harvested the rosewood or did they just do burns and cuts to run with sugar cane?

ETA: thanks for that link

 

[tinydancer]

Ok, I found this really interesting article. Gibson has since 1996 been buying certified wood.

They were the first to do so and have been highly visible with the Rainforest Alliance and have been audited on a regular basis.

This is from 2009. The CEO took a leave of absence from the Rainforest Alliance during this investigation from this raid where property was seized by no charges laid.

Gibson CEO takes leave from Rainforest Alliance board after federal raid - Nashville Business Journal



The Rainforest Alliance says its auditors last visited the Nashville plant in September 2008 and verified that Gibson purchased hard maple, mahogany and muira piranga from rain forests certified by the Forest Stewardship Council.

The woods are used in the manufacturing of Gibson’s Les Paul SmartWood and Raw Power guitars, which are sold as “FSC-Pure” with a certificate of authenticity from Gibson.

According to the Alliance, the wood under investigation is not FSC-certified.

The Nashville plant currently holds the Alliance’s Chain-of-Custody certificate. According to the Alliance’s Web site, the certification “assures companies handling forest products as well as consumers and other end-users that the FSC-certified products they purchase are from responsible sources.”

Under the certificate, Gibson also has the ability to purchase swamp ash and poplar from FSC-certified suppliers.

“No other species are authorized to be sold with a FSC-certified claim under Gibson’s Chain-of-Custody certificate,” the Alliance said, noting that the certificate does not cover wood from Madagascar.

According to the Alliance, Gibson sources mahogany from community-managed forests set aside by the Honduran and Guatemalen governments for conservation purposes.

As a result, illegal harvesting in Honduras’ Rio Platano Reserve has been greatly reduced, the Alliance said. Local loggers, who once sold wood for less than 25 cents a foot, now sell to Gibson for nearly 40 times that amount.

“The cooperatives selling sustainably harvested, high-grade mahogany to Gibson have dramatically increased their profits while conserving the forest around them,” the Alliance said.

The Alliance has been working with Gibson since 1996, when the company introduced the first guitar ever to use FSC-certified wood: the Les Paul SmartWood Standard.

In 2007, Gibson pledged to maximize its purchases of FSC-certified wood over the following five years as part of the company’s commitment to the Clinton Global Initiative.

Surely in two years the Feds would have been able to determine what the wood was and whether or not it was illegal and laid charges if that was appropriate.