FDR Caused Our Huge Debt!

PoliticalChic

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1. Total US debt is $64.2 trillion.
The Final Hour: 65 Trillion - U.S. Financial Obligations Exceed The Entire World's GDP

2. Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution, is known as the Taxing and Spending Clause.[1] It is the clause that gives the federal government of the United States its power of taxation. Component parts of this clause are known as the General Welfare Clause and the Uniformity Clause.Taxing and Spending Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


3. In his farewell address of our first President, George Washington, in reference to our constitution, warned, "Let there be no change [in the Constitution] by usurpation. For though this, in one instance may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed."

4. Up until 1937 the Congress of the United States conducted its business within the boundaries of seventeen enumerated powers granted under Article I Section 8 of the United States Constitution; these powers defined clearly the areas within which Congress could enact legislation including the allocation of funds and levying of taxes. Anything not set down in the enumerated powers was considered outside the purview of the national government and hence, a matter for the states. There were occasional challenges to the concept but it was not until Franklin Roosevelt's new deal that it was attacked in deadly earnestness.
The General Welfare Clause


5. During the Depression, FDR asked for an receive unprecedented powers. Some poorly crafted legislation went to the courts. The first of the new deal statutes to reach the Supreme Court for review, arrived in January 1935. In the sixteen months following, the court decided ten major cases or groups of cases involving new deal statutes. In eight instances out of ten the decisions went in favor of the United States Constitution and against the new deal. Eight of the ten pieces of "must legislation" were found to be unconstitutional. Op. cit.

a. Under FDR’s threats to pack the court, they threw in the towel. In doing so, they said in effect, Congress would no longer be held to enumerated powers but instead could tax and spend for anything; so long as it was for "general welfare." The supreme court surrendered to the new deal on the most fundamental of constitutional issues. Ibid.

6. Lyndon B. Johnson and the Great Society, [1965] was FDR on steroids! His programs signaled the commencement of the full implementation of "Steward Machine Co. v. Davis"--1937.

a. The decision in Steward signaled the Court’s acceptance of a broad interpretation of Congressional power to influence state laws.

6. Consider the national debt. How did this happen? A "General Welfare Congress" [session after session] made this happen. With no limits on their taxing and spending power, they became like children in a candy store.

7. The limits on federal power to legislate for the "general welfare" remains, to this date, undefined and presumably, boundless. James Madison, when asked if the "general welfare" clause was a grant of power, replied in 1792, in a letter to Henry Lee,

If not only the means but the objects are unlimited, the parchment [the Constitution] should be thrown into the fire at once. Brant, Irving “The Fourth President - A Life of James Madison,” p. 257.


If it has excaped anyone's attention, FDR, and LBJ, the primary culprits, were both Progressive Democrats.


"and what i want to know is
how do you like your blueeyed boy
Mister Death"

ee cummings
 
liar liar pants on fire, PC...

Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg
 
liar liar pants on fire, PC...

Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg



OH,NO....did I step on your toes...or Saint FDR's????


I know that you can read, and understand better than you're letting on....the point of the OP is that FDR cowed the SCOTUS into allowing taxing and spending beyond the enumerated powers....

I didn't say that Republicans and Democrats both didn't then abuse the Constitution.

How's this: the politician's mantra:

You want to serve your country. To serve your country you must be in power [in Congress]. To be in power you must be re-elected. To be re-elected you must out promise your opponent. To out promise your opponent you must promise to spend for the "General Welfare." Ibid.


Are my pants still on fire?
 
liar liar pants on fire, PC...

Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg



OH,NO....did I step on your toes...or Saint FDR's????


I know that you can read, and understand better than you're letting on....the point of the OP is that FDR cowed the SCOTUS into allowing taxing and spending beyond the enumerated powers....

I didn't say that Republicans and Democrats both didn't then abuse the Constitution.

How's this: the politician's mantra:

You want to serve your country. To serve your country you must be in power [in Congress]. To be in power you must be re-elected. To be re-elected you must out promise your opponent. To out promise your opponent you must promise to spend for the "General Welfare." Ibid.


Are my pants still on fire?

Excellent retort!

I was just posting to say that the liberal radio host I listen too said that obama needs to try all sorts of stuff with the economy like FDR had to do to create jobs. Thats when I called in and mentioned that because of FDRs programs and the repubs/dems abuse and neglect of said programs we are facing our enormous national debt today. How can adding more to the almost unsustainable debt be a good idea to you when we already learned that over a trillion in stimulus and bailouts didn't ease unemployment?

She went on some rant about how I don't want to care for the poor or seniors and completely avoided responding to the point I brought up.

Demogaugery just like what was done to you in the 2nd post
 
And in our march towards socialism I am reminded of a great thinker's ( Dr Benjamin Franklin ) response when asked at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, what we had, a republic or a monarchy to which he replied, "a republic if you can keep it."

Great quote by ee cummings, PC. I have long admired him. He was the first American poet to use all lower case letters in his name. ( Just a bit of trivia I find interesting ) "It takes far more courage to go against custom than to go against law? "
 
liar liar pants on fire, PC...

Natl_Debt_Chart.jpg



OH,NO....did I step on your toes...or Saint FDR's????


I know that you can read, and understand better than you're letting on....the point of the OP is that FDR cowed the SCOTUS into allowing taxing and spending beyond the enumerated powers....

I didn't say that Republicans and Democrats both didn't then abuse the Constitution.

How's this: the politician's mantra:

You want to serve your country. To serve your country you must be in power [in Congress]. To be in power you must be re-elected. To be re-elected you must out promise your opponent. To out promise your opponent you must promise to spend for the "General Welfare." Ibid.


Are my pants still on fire?

Excellent retort!

I was just posting to say that the liberal radio host I listen too said that obama needs to try all sorts of stuff with the economy like FDR had to do to create jobs. Thats when I called in and mentioned that because of FDRs programs and the repubs/dems abuse and neglect of said programs we are facing our enormous national debt today. How can adding more to the almost unsustainable debt be a good idea to you when we already learned that over a trillion in stimulus and bailouts didn't ease unemployment?

She went on some rant about how I don't want to care for the poor or seniors and completely avoided responding to the point I brought up.

Demogaugery just like what was done to you in the 2nd post

1. They see the results, but want to keep right on...or 'Left' on.

2. How come Jillian's graph 'Left' off LBJ and BO????
BTW...aren't they both Progressive Democrats? Hmmmm.....

3. I don't belive we have any Liberal talk show hosts in NYC....they're all in sleeping bags in Zuccotti Park...
 
1. Total US debt is $64.2 trillion...

Wow, we take the total public debt, add to it the money the gov't owes itself, and then toss in all the things the gov't doesn't even owe but might owe later. $64.2T --NEAT! Now let's forget about revenue, gov't assets, and the strength of the American people and compare our bodacious figure to what, FOREIGN GDP!!!

Now it looks to big for even someone like Ronald Reagan, it's now become a job for---
CaptainHyperbole.jpg


Seriously, it's a real bad idea to spit out this stuff. Sure, everyone does it, but it wastes people's time, it confuses the issue, and there is really serious stuff out there that nobody believes with all the 'wolf-crying' going on.
 
1. Total US debt is $64.2 trillion...

Wow, we take the total public debt, add to it the money the gov't owes itself, and then toss in all the things the gov't doesn't even owe but might owe later. $64.2T --NEAT! Now let's forget about revenue, gov't assets, and the strength of the American people and compare our bodacious figure to what, FOREIGN GDP!!!

Now it looks to big for even someone like Ronald Reagan, it's now become a job for---

Seriously, it's a real bad idea to spit out this stuff. Sure, everyone does it, but it wastes people's time, it confuses the issue, and there is really serious stuff out there that nobody believes with all the 'wolf-crying' going on.

She didn't "spit" anything out.

She presented the facts of the numbers then presented where the means to create those huge debt numbers came from and placed the cause square where it belongs.
 
1. Total US debt is $64.2 trillion...

Wow, we take the total public debt, add to it the money the gov't owes itself, and then toss in all the things the gov't doesn't even owe but might owe later. $64.2T --NEAT! Now let's forget about revenue, gov't assets, and the strength of the American people and compare our bodacious figure to what, FOREIGN GDP!!!

Now it looks to big for even someone like Ronald Reagan, it's now become a job for---
CaptainHyperbole.jpg


Seriously, it's a real bad idea to spit out this stuff. Sure, everyone does it, but it wastes people's time, it confuses the issue, and there is really serious stuff out there that nobody believes with all the 'wolf-crying' going on.

Let’s see all of the debt in one place:
a. National debt $13-14 trillion
b. State and Local debt $2.5 trillion
c. State and Local pensions (underfunded) $3 trillion
d. Social Security $7.7 trillion*
e. Medicare $ 38 trillion*
f. Total US debt $64.2 trillion
g. Total GDP of entire world $61.0 trillion

*covers commitments for 75 years

b., c. The Other National Debt - Kevin D. Williamson - National Review Online

d., e. The 81% Tax Increase - Forbes.com

f. The Final Hour: 65 Trillion - U.S. Financial Obligations Exceed The Entire World's GDP

g. Silver: Declining supply, increasing demand - Precious Metals - Resource Investor
 
During the Depression, FDR asked for an receive unprecedented powers. Some poorly crafted legislation went to the courts. The first of the new deal statutes to reach the Supreme Court for review, arrived in January 1935. In the sixteen months following, the court decided ten major cases or groups of cases involving new deal statutes. In eight instances out of ten the decisions went in favor of the United States Constitution and against the new deal. Eight of the ten pieces of "must legislation" were found to be unconstitutional. Op. cit.

a. Under FDR’s threats to pack the court, they threw in the towel. In doing so, they said in effect, Congress would no longer be held to enumerated powers but instead could tax and spend for anything; so long as it was for "general welfare." The supreme court surrendered to the new deal on the most fundamental of constitutional issues.

This is inaccurate.

The key Supreme Court case that expressed the view that the taxation power is independent of the other enumerated powers (although this in itself only clarified a view that had been in place for a long time) was United States v. Butler. This case was decided a year before the Judicial Procedures Reform Bill went down to defeat in Congress, so it was NOT in response to Roosevelt's "court-packing" threat. Also, the language was found in a ruling that struck down one of the key provisions of the First New Deal, the Agricultural Adjustment Act.

While the Court found the Act to be unconstitutional, it expressed a general acceptance of the idea that the federal government may tax, and by implication spend, on any furtherance of the three purposes stated in the Constitution as justifying such taxation and spending: to pay the debts, provide for the common defense, or provide for the general welfare. Some of the language from that decision follows:

USSC said:
13. In Article I, § 8, cl. 1 of the Constitution, which provides that Congress shall have power

to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States,

the phrase "to provide for the general welfare" is not an independent provision empowering Congress generally to provide for the general welfare, but is a qualification defining and limiting the power "to lay and collect taxes," etc. P. 64.

14. The power to appropriate money from the Treasury (Constitution, Art. I, § 9, cl. 7) is as broad as the power to tax, and the power to lay taxes to provide for the general welfare of the United States implies the power to appropriate public funds for that purpose. P. 65.

15. The power to tax and spend is a separate and distinct power; its exercise is not confined to the fields committed to Congress by the other enumerated grants of power, but it is limited by the requirement that it shall be exercised to provide for the general welfare of the United States. P. 65. [p3]

The Court held the AAA unconstitutional nonetheless because it attempted to impose, by the back-door method of taxes and appropriations, regulations that the government is not authorized to impose; taxing and spending is a power granted by the first clause of Article I Section 8, but regulation is not. Despite striking down the law, the Court upheld the general idea of unlimited federal taxation and spending.

When speaking of the modern deficit, we have to recognize what is under discussion precisely. The government has always run a deficit in times of emergency, including wars and economic downturns. Prior to the 1980s, however, deficits, or at least not very large deficits, were not run during times of peace and prosperity. That's what has changed, and it seems to have changed only under Republican administrations, and certainly not all the way back to the 1930s (Eisenhower ran a balanced budget for example).

Roosevelt inaugurated a new era of increased government involvement in the economy, but NOT an era of increased public debt. That waited for Ronald Reagan.
 
...Let’s see all of the debt in one place:
a. National debt $13-14 trillion
b. State and Local debt $2.5 trillion
c. State and Local pensions (underfunded) $3 trillion
d. Social Security $7.7 trillion*
e. Medicare $ 38 trillion*
f. Total US debt $64.2 trillion
g. Total GDP of entire world $61.0 trillion

*covers commitments for 75 years...

Here's another reference from The Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
The American Heritage® Dictionary said:
hyperbole [haɪˈpɜːbəlɪ]
n
(Literature / Rhetoric) a deliberate exaggeration used for effect he embraced her a thousand times
[from Greek: from hyper- + bolē a throw, from ballein to throw]
hyperbolism n​
It's like I was saying, we start with $14,937,008,744,814.46 (from Debt to the Penny, US Treasury) and it doesn't matter that it includes $4,733,670,316,072.01 that the government owes itself. I could decide to 'borrow' a million trillion dollars from myself but everyone would know I was being silly. Leaving the national debt at $15T only looks silly to half the viewers here.

Then you add to it Social Security and Medicare which costs $600B yearly and we say we owe the next 75 years of payments right now. The earth is expected to remain in orbit around the sun for another 5 billion years but the reason you don't say our debt is $300,000,000T is because everyone would know you're being silly. By saying we owe $46T only half of us know you're being silly.
 
Intragovernmental debt is still just debt, money the government doesn't have. Hell corporations burn for doing accounting the way the government does it with intragovernmental debt. They don't have the money to borrow money from themselves. so 15 trillion is accurate.
 
Intragovernmental debt is still just debt, money the government doesn't have...
Work with me on this.

The government writes an IOU for $5T but doesn't take any money from anyone and doesn't give the IOU to anyone. The $5T can be money the gov't doesn't have but if it did then it would pay itself and still no money would have to move. As long as the government holds the paper and doesn't take in money, that IOU represents a promise to pay no one but the gov't itself. We can agree that it's meaningless, and we can also agree that it's not a debt that the taxpayers will pay to anyone but themselves.
 

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