FDR and Pearl Harbor

[del]

this is a most entertaining thread.

 

[Toro]

I think the Interent is the problem a lot of folks have with believing that we were surprised.

When you're not on a war footing, you never think you're going to be attacked. Especially by Japan.

We live in a society where you can know what is on television (if you want to that is) in Sydney. In 1941, you didn't have any such access to information. Having such cultural differences didn't lend itself to intel gathering either.

All in all, the stories are interesting but I don't think there was any conspiracy. It was just one of those dang deals. Those with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight shouldn't judge the men on the ground too harshly.

On Nov 27, 1941 George Marshall ordered a "War warning" and directed the base at Pearl to "undertake reconnaissance" a sensible precaution. However, suddenly, on December 6 Gen Short ordered the fighter to "Stand down" gave pilots THAT VERY Weekend off, ordered the mobile AA guns BACK TO BARRACKS, dispersed the aircraft from the protective bunkers and stacked them up on the runway (the only thing he didn't do was spray them with lighter fluid and leave matches nearby) insuring maximum damage would be inflicted on the ships at Pearl, but not the carriers, which were also sent out on patrol far away from the inbound Japanese strike force.

Did you gloss over that part of the OP?

so YOU are going go give this paid disinformation agent troll the attention he seeks also huh? Your playing his game and he is wasting your time like he wants to do,not smart.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's who's behind you Frank!

 

[del]

On Nov 27, 1941 George Marshall ordered a "War warning" and directed the base at Pearl to "undertake reconnaissance" a sensible precaution. However, suddenly, on December 6 Gen Short ordered the fighter to "Stand down" gave pilots THAT VERY Weekend off, ordered the mobile AA guns BACK TO BARRACKS, dispersed the aircraft from the protective bunkers and stacked them up on the runway (the only thing he didn't do was spray them with lighter fluid and leave matches nearby) insuring maximum damage would be inflicted on the ships at Pearl, but not the carriers, which were also sent out on patrol far away from the inbound Japanese strike force.

Did you gloss over that part of the OP?

so YOU are going go give this paid disinformation agent troll the attention he seeks also huh? Your playing his game and he is wasting your time like he wants to do,not smart.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's who's behind you Frank!

i wonder if terral is on board with this?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The last time the Japanese and the Russian crossed swords in 1905, the Japanese mopped the floor up with the Rooskies ((Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) because you Progressives never believe anything happened unless its in Wiki) and the Soviet spies advising FDR got him to start a real life shooting war with Russia's natural and deadly enemy, the Japanese. .

Japan was never Russia's "natural enemy." If you're looking for one in Asia it would be China. It's true that the humiliation of the Russo-Japanese War basically brought down the Czar (and all that followed from that), but "natural enemy" is overstating the case.

No it's not.

China and Japan were at war since 1937 while China was also fighting a Civil War. FDR backed histories biggest mass murderer Democratic Progressive Mao over the Free Chinese in that one

 

[Unkotare]

Try reading what I actually wrote.

 

[Oddball]

This conspiracy theory is right up there with "Bush knew 9/11 was going to happen, and let it happen so we could steal the Arabs oil."

Outstanding.

Actually, there is far more direct and verifiable evidence to back up this one.

War is the health of the state, baby.

No there's not.

It's the exact same lame argument the twoofers make.

How did General Claire Chennault know that the Zero outclassed any American fighters that could put up against it, if the AVG weren't engaging the Japs prior to 7 Dec?

 

[dilloduck]

Actually, there is far more direct and verifiable evidence to back up this one.

War is the health of the state, baby.

No there's not.

It's the exact same lame argument the twoofers make.

How did General Claire Chennault know that the Zero outclassed any American fighters that could put up against it, if the AVG weren't engaging the Japs prior to 7 Dec?

Russian spies brainwashed him ?

 

[candycorn]

It's good to deal with FDR's blunders even though his legacy has been protected by the liberal media for almost a hundred years. How much evidence do you need to admit that FDR wanted the US to be attacked by Japan so the US would get into the "real war" in Europe? His own words? I doubt if FDR set up the Pearl Harbor attack. He was a slick politician but he just wasn't that smart. I think FDR and the entire government suffered from terminal bigotry with respect to the Japanese. There are several examples of profound ignorance regarding the Japanese including the administration's opinion that they were poor in math skills to build a ship that would float and too nearsighted to fly a plane. In other words the FDR administration thought the Japanese would be a pushover and a minor inconvenience on the road to war with Germany.

you need to read the book DAY OF DECEIT.Its a book based on over 10,000 declassified documents and interviews with navel men including admirals who said Roosevelt was a traiter to his country.then you will know FDR did indeed set up the attack.

By all means, lets put credence into the guy who can't spell "naval" or "traitor" correctly....

Child please.

 

[Toro]

Actually, there is far more direct and verifiable evidence to back up this one.

War is the health of the state, baby.

No there's not.

It's the exact same lame argument the twoofers make.

How did General Claire Chennault know that the Zero outclassed any American fighters that could put up against it, if the AVG weren't engaging the Japs prior to 7 Dec?

Dude, you can also do that all day about 9/11 with eots, 9/11 inside nutjob, et. al. Or at least with eots. 9/11 inside nutjob will tell you to read a book or watch youtube videos or something.

Why did NATO planes stand down?

Why did Larry Silverstein say "pull it?"

Why did it take Bush seven minutes to respond?

Why did the WTC power down over a weekend?

Why is there no plane log of the flight that crashed into the Pentagon?

And so on.

There are hundreds of questions like that.

GJELTEN
11:40:36
And, Ian, our last caller suggested that Winston Churchill may in fact have had some foreknowledge of a Japanese attack and did not -- so desperately wanted the United States to come into this war that he neglected or didn't bother to really share all the intelligence that he had. Does that make any sense? Have you heard that before?
TOLL
11:41:01
It's one of the theories that had been advanced that Churchill or Roosevelt had foreknowledge of the Japanese intentions to attack Pearl Harbor. In my view, the more recent attacks on 9/11 provide us with some insight into what happened at Pearl Harbor. In retrospect, we can say that the signs were there. The intelligence was there pointing to this attack. And yet when we look back in hindsight and assemble all of the pieces, it's easy to put them into a pattern that would lead you to that conclusion. I don't think that there is credible evidence that either of the allied leaders knew that there was going to be an attack on Pearl Harbor.
TOLL
11:41:49
It is certainly true that Churchill would have welcomed the attack and that it would've brought the United States into the war. And I thinking a sense Roosevelt and his advisors also recognized that the attack, as devastating as it was, had solved their greatest political problem which was how to bring the United States into the war united and determined to win it.
GJELTEN
11:42:12
It's easy to connect the dots afterwards, isn't it, Steven?
GILLON
11:42:14
Yeah, I agree completely with what Ian said. In retrospect, we can see these things. At the time what I'm struck by in this case and just my study of history in general is most people are overwhelmed by events. They have a difficult time putting pieces together. It's by -- it seems pretty obvious to me that neither Roosevelt nor Churchill anticipated the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor. ...

Pearl Harbor Day | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

 

[Oddball]

Fact remains that the AVG was deployed and engaging Japanese aircraft well in advance of 7 December....A direct provocation.

What did FDR think the Japs were going to do about it?...Write him a strongly worded letter?

 

[del]

Fact remains that the AVG was deployed and engaging Japanese aircraft well in advance of 7 December....A direct provocation.

What did FDR think the Japs were going to do about it?...Write him a strongly worded letter?

fact remains that the tigers weren't under u.s. c & c.

where does wtc 7 figure into all of this?

 

[Oddball]

An American General running the operation isn't under operational C&C?...Since when?

It has nothing to do with WTC 7....Point being that the attack at Pearl Harbor was hardly an unforeseeable event, whether or not the exact time and place of the attack were known ahead of time.

 

[del]

An American General running the operation isn't under operational C&C?...Since when?

It has nothing to do with WTC 7....Point being that the attack at Pearl Harbor was hardly an unforeseeable event, whether or not the exact time and place of the attack were known ahead of time.

neither was it a conspiracy

 

[Oddball]

What do you call putting up a public front of non-interventionism, all the while that you're secretly doing everything you can to get America caught up in the war?

I think that the term "conspiracy" fits quite well....And there's no theory about it.

 

[del]

What do you call putting up a public front of non-interventionism, all the while that you're secretly doing everything you can to get America caught up in the war?

I think that the term "conspiracy" fits quite well....And there's no theory about it.

give my best to the boys at alcoa

 

[Oddball]

The facts are there...FDR deliberately provoked the Japanese.

There was no state of declared war when the AVG was engaging Jap aircraft over China.

No tin foil needed.

 

[Navy1960]

By now you are all aware that FDR had genuine Soviet spies in high offices and as key advisers. Part of their mission was to turn the USA and Japan on a collision course toward war.

The last time the Japanese and the Russian crossed swords in 1905, the Japanese mopped the floor up with the Rooskies ((Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) because you Progressives never believe anything happened unless its in Wiki) and the Soviet spies advising FDR got him to start a real life shooting war with Russia's natural and deadly enemy, the Japanese. I give the Soviets an enormous amount of credit for their geo-political victory here, it cannot be underestimated and should be applauded. They played FDR for a total patsy.

By now you also know that FDR provoked and goaded and all but invited the Japanese to attack us and in fact, since we had cracked the Japanese codes, we were well aware the invasion fleet was inbound to Pearl Harbor on Dec 7.

On Nov 27, 1941 George Marshall ordered a "War warning" and directed the base at Pearl to "undertake reconnaissance" a sensible precaution. However, suddenly, on December 6 Gen Short ordered the fighter to "Stand down" gave pilots THAT VERY Weekend off, ordered the mobile AA guns BACK TO BARRACKS, dispersed the aircraft from the protective bunkers and stacked them up on the runway (the only thing he didn't do was spray them with lighter fluid and leave matches nearby) insuring maximum damage would be inflicted on the ships at Pearl, but not the carriers, which were also sent out on patrol far away from the inbound Japanese strike force.

Clearly, Gen Short must have gotten an order, maybe from FDR personally, to leave Pearl Harbor vulnerable and insure maximum damage to the fleet (but not the carriers) at Pearl.

While I agree with you about FDR's cabinet (he was a well known fan of Uncle Joe you know) I ascribe General Shorts actions to sheer incompetence. I do believe that FDR knew what was coming. There is ample circumstantial evidence to show that.

However, the generals of that era were pretty damned stupid. Look at what Macarthur did AFTER the Pearl Harbor attacks had occured. He did the EXACT SAME THING! Lined his aircraft up wingtip to wingtip because he and his staff felt the Japanese were incompetent monkeys and couldn't possibly reach them from their bases in Formosa.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

All of this has to be taken in the context of FDR having genuine Communist spies calling the shots and advising him. The Soviet spies intended to put us on a collision course with Japan so that would free the USSR from their own 2 from war.

Hitler invaded in June 1941 and by December the spires of the Kremlin were in German site.

There are no odds that Short picked the very day before the attack to stand down ALL Defenses to insure a successful devastating attack

The Manion Forum in Fall, 1958 Radio Interview with K. Kimmel USN

CM: Admiral Kimmel, for myself and the radio audience, I am very greatful for the privilege of this interview. You know, of course, that you hold the key to one of the great tragic mysteries in our country's history. What you are doing here to day is a continuation of the great patriotic service to which your whole life has been dedicated.

HEK: Thank you, Dean Manion. In view of our long family friendship, I'm delighted to give this information to you, and through you, to the American people.

CM: To your present knowledge, how many people knew in advance that the Japanese planned to attack Pearl Harbor on December 7?

HEK: I believe those who had seen the intercepted and decoded Japanese messages, including the 14 part message received on December 6 and December 7, 1941, knew war with Japan was inevitable. And the almost certain objective of the Jpanese attack would be the fleet at Pearl Harbor, on December 7, 1941, at 1 p.m. Washington time.

CM: Who are some of these people and from what source did they get the information?

HEK: Those who saw the intercepted Japanese messages as they were received included: the President, Mr. Roosevelt; the Secretary of State, Mr. Hull; the Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson; the Secretary of the Navy, Mr. Knox; the Chief of Staff of the Army, General Marshall; the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Stark; the Chief of War Plans, Army, General Gerow; the Chief of War Plans, Navy, Admiral Turner; the Chief of Army Intelligence, General Miles; Chief of Naval Intelligence, Admiral Worthington. Recorded testimony shows that all of these, except General Marshall and Admiral Stark were shown 13 parts of the 14-part message by 9 p.m. December 6, 1941, or shortly thereafter. When Mr. Roosevelt had read the 13 parts, about 9 p.m. December 6, 1941, he remarked: "This means war." All investigations of the disaster have failed to disclose where George Marshall spent the evening of December 6, 1941, or what he did. Admiral Stark, some two years after he had first been asked, finally produced evidence that he had attended the theater on that evening, though he still maintained that he had no independent recollection of where he spent the evening or what he did during the evening of December 6, 1941. In 1957, I received information, which I believe to be reliable, that the British subject serving in the Chinese government as commissioner of education and in telligence in China, received on November 30, 1941, from his intelligence sources in Japan, information of the planned at tack on Pearl Harbor to be launched on December 7. Where the Japanese fleet would congregate to launch the planes, the hour the planes were to be launched, the berths of the U.S. fleet in Pearl and which ships were to be bombed first. This information was sent to London in a coded message, on Sunday, November 30, and Monday, December 1, 1941. Whether the Chinese commissioner's intelligence was transmitted from London to Washington, I do not know, but it appears highly probable that it was made available to Mr. Roosevelt. If Mr. Roosevelt did, in fact, receive the Chinese commissioner's intelligence, it was merely a detailed confirmation of the in tercepted Japanese messages already available to him.

CM: In your opinion, why were you and General Short not notified well in advance that the attack was expected?

HEK: My belief is that General Short and I were not given the information available in Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared that action in Hawaii might deter the Japanese from making the attack. Our president had repeatedly assured the American people that the United States would not enter the war unless we were attacked. The Japanese attack on the fleet would put the United States in the war with the full suppport of the American public.

"If Admiral Husband Kimmel, the commander in Hawaii, had "had advance notice that the Japanese were coming, he most probably would have tried to intercept them. With the difference in speed between Kimmel's battleships and the faster Japanese carriers, the former could not have come within rifle range of the enemy's flattops. As a result, we would have lost many ships in deep water and also thousands more in lives." Instead, at Pearl Harbor, the crews were easily rescued, and six battleships ultimately raised" Chester Nimitz USN

During the week preceding 7 December, the entire Hawaiian Department, by order of General Short, engaged in a full scale exercise for seven consecutive days. Army units from Schofield Barracks deployed, antiaircraft units drew ammunition and set up stations all over the island, and the Hawaiian Air Force armed aircraft and dispersed them to protective revetments. The warning center was fully operational and launched aircraft against simulated attacking targets.

General Short considered this exercise a great success. After its cancellation on 6 December, personnel returned to the barracks, carefully cleaned and repaired the guns and equipment, removed the ammunition and repacked it in storage containers, and returned the aircraft to their main bases to be reparked close together because Alert One was still in effect.
HyperWar: 7 December 1941: The Air Force Story [Chapter 1]

Were Gen. Short and Adm. Kimmel in part responsible for events of Dec. 7th due to their actions, the answer is a muted yes, because they were in command. As the person in comman they bear the brunt of responsiblity for any actions that may lead to the loss of men, ships, and planes. However, to simply imply that Gen. Short of Adm. Kimmel were somehow involved in a conspiracy with the Roosevelt Administration in an effort to lead this nation into War is complete nonsense. Is there some evidence to suggest that that FDR was aware and wanted this nation in War in order to lend help to Great Britan , yes there was, and there is also a lof of evidence that show that much of the intercepts were withheld from the scene commanders , so if there was a conspiracy involved with the Commanders themselves then they would have had access to these intercepts which they clearly did not. Further, both of these men were subject to many investigations both Congressional, as well as Navy and Army, which led to their resignations and reductions in rank.

 

[freedombecki]

What do you call putting up a public front of non-interventionism, all the while that you're secretly doing everything you can to get America caught up in the war?

I think that the term "conspiracy" fits quite well....And there's no theory about it.

With the press in his pocket and 4 terms as President the outcome, FDR's lassez-faire allowance of gross munitions sales to the Allies does seem to fit in with the schema of certain disaster. Pearl Harbor: 2403 American defenders dead.
No wonder the Congress responded after the war by setting term limits into law instead of George Washington's courtesy tradition of two terms being flaunted and intentionally abused.

It's too bad Congress could do nothing to demand professional journalism from rabid reporters, bent on progressive goals, which have now gone so far as to threaten Constitutional Bill of Rights privileges.

The press just sits on its hands when the obvious truth rings bells before a public that has its hands on its ears.

You do see stupid people, Oddball. Stay after them.

 

[Unkotare]

The facts are there...FDR deliberately provoked the Japanese.

There was no state of declared war when the AVG was engaging Jap aircraft over China.

No tin foil needed.

Interesting that you managed to spell out 'Japanese' once but not twice. I know it's a real long word and all, but since you've proven your ability to do it...

 

[whitehall]

Short didn't have access to the "Magic" decodes. He was virtually working in the blind with no real intelligence except bland stuff sent by Washington now and then. Short became the goat for Pearl Harbor because the media spun it that way. The funny thing is that MacArthur actually had a day's warning and he failed to follow the "war plan" and let his planes be shot up parked wing to wing on the ground. A couple of months later his whole Army would be forced to surrender. Yet MacArthur was awarded the Medal of Honor and praised for his actions.