FBI Agent Discusses Bullcrap Regarding Torture

[Procrustes Stretched]

FBI Agent Discusses Bullcrap Regarding Torture

How many times have people (mostly right wingers) stated that without torture (enhanced interrogation techniques) the USA would not have gotten information vital to keeping the USA safe?

Because people here have very limited news and information sources (ideology and hatred towards msm, and networks, newspapers) I bet have they have used the examples given in the video above - wrongly. People here have been spreading falsehoods, lies, propaganda about the so called WoT: war on terror.

My Tortured Decision - Video Library - The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

godboy
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...gent-say-torture-doesnt-work.html#post1213205

politicalchic
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...gent-say-torture-doesnt-work.html#post1213236

manu1959
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...gent-say-torture-doesnt-work.html#post1213288
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...nt-say-torture-doesnt-work-2.html#post1213300

william-joyce

Gunny
http://www.usmessageboard.com/law-a...nt-say-torture-doesnt-work-3.html#post1214093

 

[Charles_Main]

Not sure who says what you are claiming Mostly Right wingers say.

I never have. What I have said is I can imagine situation where I would want the option to use it.

Example you pick a guy up, who brags to you that very soon thousands of Americans will die, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Now in that case I think a little enhanced interrogation is in order.

 

[rightwinger]

People performing torture always find a way to justify it

Blame the victim..

- He deserves it
- He is less human than I am
- I am saving lives by torturing him

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Not sure who says what you are claiming Mostly Right wingers say.

I never have. What I have said is I can imagine situation where I would want the option to use it.

Example you pick a guy up, who brags to you that very soon thousands of Americans will die, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Now in that case I think a little enhanced interrogation is in order.

Situations like this don't really exist, except on 24. That's the problem.

 

[manu1959]

i recant....i will just make them read dante's threads....

 

[Charles_Main]

Not sure who says what you are claiming Mostly Right wingers say.

I never have. What I have said is I can imagine situation where I would want the option to use it.

Example you pick a guy up, who brags to you that very soon thousands of Americans will die, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Now in that case I think a little enhanced interrogation is in order.

Situations like this don't really exist, except on 24. That's the problem.

You are so sure of that how? Are you privy to all our intel?

I think not.

Oh and I never watched 24.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Not sure who says what you are claiming Mostly Right wingers say.

I never have. What I have said is I can imagine situation where I would want the option to use it.

Example you pick a guy up, who brags to you that very soon thousands of Americans will die, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Now in that case I think a little enhanced interrogation is in order.

Emotionally, your argument makes sense and appeals to me. But if we are to believe the data, there is absolutely no guarantee that the information gotten would be of use in preventing something. If the guy bragging were a bot player, they would not know much, but the general outlines. If a real trained terrorist with knowledge was nabbed, I would have to assume from the data, that they could lie and wait out the imminent attack.

To seriously argue for the position you took, we would need real life situations that are not exceptions to a rule.

 

[martybegan]

One of the concepts lost in this entire debate is that the when we are considering the use of "torture" (or enhanced interrogation whatever you want to call it) It would be with the purpose of gaining information. Torture in the old timey days was more often than not for purely punative methods, either as a punishment, or as an example to others (keeping the serfs in line.)

The use of force in gaining information is a more recent development, mostly beacuse back then very few people in a given army/spy network had the information you needed. Today information is far more widespread, thus more people have access to it.

When it comes to torture as an end to itself, it becomes easy to condemn it, and swear off its use. When the person in question has information that could save thousands of lives, the question stops being so simple. Regardless of how much you think a "24" like situation cannot happen, it is not an impossibility.

 

[xotoxi]

FBI Agent Discusses Bullcrap Regarding Torture

I practice enhanced posting techniques...which some people will argue is torture.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

One of the concepts lost in this entire debate is that the when we are considering the use of "torture" (or enhanced interrogation whatever you want to call it) It would be with the purpose of gaining information. Torture in the old timey days was more often than not for purely punative methods, either as a punishment, or as an example to others (keeping the serfs in line.)

The use of force in gaining information is a more recent development, mostly beacuse back then very few people in a given army/spy network had the information you needed. Today information is far more widespread, thus more people have access to it.

When it comes to torture as an end to itself, it becomes easy to condemn it, and swear off its use. When the person in question has information that could save thousands of lives, the question stops being so simple. Regardless of how much you think a "24" like situation cannot happen, it is not an impossibility.

You totally missed the boat here.

and your arguments are hilariously juvenile.

 

[martybegan]

One of the concepts lost in this entire debate is that the when we are considering the use of "torture" (or enhanced interrogation whatever you want to call it) It would be with the purpose of gaining information. Torture in the old timey days was more often than not for purely punative methods, either as a punishment, or as an example to others (keeping the serfs in line.)

The use of force in gaining information is a more recent development, mostly beacuse back then very few people in a given army/spy network had the information you needed. Today information is far more widespread, thus more people have access to it.

When it comes to torture as an end to itself, it becomes easy to condemn it, and swear off its use. When the person in question has information that could save thousands of lives, the question stops being so simple. Regardless of how much you think a "24" like situation cannot happen, it is not an impossibility.

You totally missed the boat here.

and your arguments are hilariously juvenile.

Which is messageboard-ese for "I can't argue against his points so I will add some snark and a smiley"

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Not sure who says what you are claiming Mostly Right wingers say.

I never have. What I have said is I can imagine situation where I would want the option to use it.

Example you pick a guy up, who brags to you that very soon thousands of Americans will die, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Now in that case I think a little enhanced interrogation is in order.

Situations like this don't really exist, except on 24. That's the problem.

You are so sure of that how? Are you privy to all our intel?

I think not.

Oh and I never watched 24.

Ticking time bomb scenario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a justification of torture, nothing more. The scenario criteria have NEVER been met, even though Cheney lied, and said it had been.

 

[martybegan]

Situations like this don't really exist, except on 24. That's the problem.

You are so sure of that how? Are you privy to all our intel?

I think not.

Oh and I never watched 24.

Ticking time bomb scenario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a justification of torture, nothing more. The scenario criteria have NEVER been met, even though Cheney lied, and said it had been.

That the scenario has never been met does not mean it cannot happen. Also, the anti argument does not go into the after affects of NOT doing everything you can to get the information. I'm not talking about the ramifcations of said bomb going off, but those that will happen to the people that make the decsion not to use extreme measures to get said information.

Just imagine what would happen if the scenario did occur, you had one of the conspiritors, and then did nothing, just interrogated him in a manner similar to a police interrogation. Then Boston goes "boom." Once the public finds out about this, do you think that the party in power at the time will ever win an election again or have thier views taken seriously?

 

[rightwinger]

You are so sure of that how? Are you privy to all our intel?

I think not.

Oh and I never watched 24.

Ticking time bomb scenario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a justification of torture, nothing more. The scenario criteria have NEVER been met, even though Cheney lied, and said it had been.

That the scenario has never been met does not mean it cannot happen. Also, the anti argument does not go into the after affects of NOT doing everything you can to get the information. I'm not talking about the ramifcations of said bomb going off, but those that will happen to the people that make the decsion not to use extreme measures to get said information.

Just imagine what would happen if the scenario did occur, you had one of the conspiritors, and then did nothing, just interrogated him in a manner similar to a police interrogation. Then Boston goes "boom." Once the public finds out about this, do you think that the party in power at the time will ever win an election again or have thier views taken seriously?

So you accept the fact that you, yourself should be tortured if you knew critical information?

How about other Americans? Should we be tortured also?

 

[martybegan]

Ticking time bomb scenario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a justification of torture, nothing more. The scenario criteria have NEVER been met, even though Cheney lied, and said it had been.

That the scenario has never been met does not mean it cannot happen. Also, the anti argument does not go into the after affects of NOT doing everything you can to get the information. I'm not talking about the ramifcations of said bomb going off, but those that will happen to the people that make the decsion not to use extreme measures to get said information.

Just imagine what would happen if the scenario did occur, you had one of the conspiritors, and then did nothing, just interrogated him in a manner similar to a police interrogation. Then Boston goes "boom." Once the public finds out about this, do you think that the party in power at the time will ever win an election again or have thier views taken seriously?

So you accept the fact that you, yourself should be tortured if you knew critical information?

How about other Americans? Should we be tortured also?

We then have to define tourture and critical information.

lets play out the scenario. FBI has had a group under survellience. They know the basic members, and that they are planning something. One day new info from the CIA has definitive proof that a few loose former ruskie ADMs (Atomic Demolition device) have been sent to the USA. The group being observed has connections to the group being observed, and intel leads the FBI to believe that the group is ready to do whatever they do.

The main base is known to the FBI, and it is known the group has several vans in its possession. It is decided to raid the base. Upon entering, all the vans are gone, you pick up one person, a known mid level person in the group, and the carrying cases for the of the ADM's., empty of course.

So at this point you are reasonably sure that 3 nukes are loose in the US, you have a person who probably knows whats going on.

At this point please tell me how you get the information you need out of this person.

and as a direct answer to your question, if it is a matter of roughing up one person vs. a crater in the place of a US city, I say yes. Not to punish, but to get them to talk.

 

[Charles_Main]

Situations like this don't really exist, except on 24. That's the problem.

You are so sure of that how? Are you privy to all our intel?

I think not.

Oh and I never watched 24.

Ticking time bomb scenario - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a justification of torture, nothing more. The scenario criteria have NEVER been met, even though Cheney lied, and said it had been.

Do you actually think if it had been met, we would know about it?

 

[Charles_Main]

That the scenario has never been met does not mean it cannot happen. Also, the anti argument does not go into the after affects of NOT doing everything you can to get the information. I'm not talking about the ramifcations of said bomb going off, but those that will happen to the people that make the decsion not to use extreme measures to get said information.

Just imagine what would happen if the scenario did occur, you had one of the conspiritors, and then did nothing, just interrogated him in a manner similar to a police interrogation. Then Boston goes "boom." Once the public finds out about this, do you think that the party in power at the time will ever win an election again or have thier views taken seriously?

So you accept the fact that you, yourself should be tortured if you knew critical information?

How about other Americans? Should we be tortured also?

We then have to define tourture and critical information.

lets play out the scenario. FBI has had a group under survellience. They know the basic members, and that they are planning something. One day new info from the CIA has definitive proof that a few loose former ruskie ADMs (Atomic Demolition device) have been sent to the USA. The group being observed has connections to the group being observed, and intel leads the FBI to believe that the group is ready to do whatever they do.

The main base is known to the FBI, and it is known the group has several vans in its possession. It is decided to raid the base. Upon entering, all the vans are gone, you pick up one person, a known mid level person in the group, and the carrying cases for the of the ADM's., empty of course.

So at this point you are reasonably sure that 3 nukes are loose in the US, you have a person who probably knows whats going on.

At this point please tell me how you get the information you need out of this person.

and as a direct answer to your question, if it is a matter of roughing up one person vs. a crater in the place of a US city, I say yes. Not to punish, but to get them to talk.

The liberal answer would be to call them a lawyer and have a trial Hopefully not in the city about to be vaporized.

 

[rightwinger]

That the scenario has never been met does not mean it cannot happen. Also, the anti argument does not go into the after affects of NOT doing everything you can to get the information. I'm not talking about the ramifcations of said bomb going off, but those that will happen to the people that make the decsion not to use extreme measures to get said information.

Just imagine what would happen if the scenario did occur, you had one of the conspiritors, and then did nothing, just interrogated him in a manner similar to a police interrogation. Then Boston goes "boom." Once the public finds out about this, do you think that the party in power at the time will ever win an election again or have thier views taken seriously?

So you accept the fact that you, yourself should be tortured if you knew critical information?

How about other Americans? Should we be tortured also?

We then have to define tourture and critical information.

lets play out the scenario. FBI has had a group under survellience. They know the basic members, and that they are planning something. One day new info from the CIA has definitive proof that a few loose former ruskie ADMs (Atomic Demolition device) have been sent to the USA. The group being observed has connections to the group being observed, and intel leads the FBI to believe that the group is ready to do whatever they do.

The main base is known to the FBI, and it is known the group has several vans in its possession. It is decided to raid the base. Upon entering, all the vans are gone, you pick up one person, a known mid level person in the group, and the carrying cases for the of the ADM's., empty of course.

So at this point you are reasonably sure that 3 nukes are loose in the US, you have a person who probably knows whats going on.

At this point please tell me how you get the information you need out of this person.

and as a direct answer to your question, if it is a matter of roughing up one person vs. a crater in the place of a US city, I say yes. Not to punish, but to get them to talk.

We are not talking about torturing evil suspected terrorists we are talking about torturing Americans

If an Air Force pilot is captured and has knowledge about US tactics, aircraft capabilities and vulnerabilities, future targets etc

How much should he be tortured? He has knowlege that could save tens of thousands of lives....how much should he be tortured? Which torture methods do you support being used on Americans?

 

[martybegan]

So you accept the fact that you, yourself should be tortured if you knew critical information?

How about other Americans? Should we be tortured also?

We then have to define tourture and critical information.

lets play out the scenario. FBI has had a group under survellience. They know the basic members, and that they are planning something. One day new info from the CIA has definitive proof that a few loose former ruskie ADMs (Atomic Demolition device) have been sent to the USA. The group being observed has connections to the group being observed, and intel leads the FBI to believe that the group is ready to do whatever they do.

The main base is known to the FBI, and it is known the group has several vans in its possession. It is decided to raid the base. Upon entering, all the vans are gone, you pick up one person, a known mid level person in the group, and the carrying cases for the of the ADM's., empty of course.

So at this point you are reasonably sure that 3 nukes are loose in the US, you have a person who probably knows whats going on.

At this point please tell me how you get the information you need out of this person.

and as a direct answer to your question, if it is a matter of roughing up one person vs. a crater in the place of a US city, I say yes. Not to punish, but to get them to talk.

We are not talking about torturing evil suspected terrorists we are talking about torturing Americans

If an Air Force pilot is captured and has knowledge about US tactics, aircraft capabilities and vulnerabilities, future targets etc

How much should he be tortured? He has knowlege that could save tens of thousands of lives....how much should he be tortured? Which torture methods do you support being used on Americans?

Not the same. an Air force pilot is a uniformed member of an armed services of a soverign nation, given Geneva rights. it would be more like me jumping into an F-16 and trying to bomb some poor slobs. I would be an unlawful combatant, and therfore not covered un geneva, and leagally could even be shot upon capture. The pilot is also following lawful orders, unlike some nut trying to place a bomb in a basement in Boston. (and if they were, then we could retaliate against the people who gave the orders)

The citizenship issue is a real one. Based on the above, if it were an american citizen there would have to be a procedure in place to get a judge to rule on it quick.

As for methods? Dont know.

You still havent answered MY question. How do you get the information out of your suspect?