Father Defend Daughter's Right to Wear Chain-wallet to School

[jillian]

Actually, that is not what I said to her. She respects the rules of the school and does not wear the chain. I am showing her that one can make a difference by logically addressing an issue.

Quite frankly, I have devoted my life to changing the whole judging a book by it's cover thing.

It's nice conceptually to think that can be changed. But having hired people when I worked for myself, I can tell you that anyone working for me represented ME... not themselves. They were a reflection of ME and MY BUSINESS and represented me to the outside world. And I'm no different from anyone else who will consider hiring your daughter. And that includes the schools she's going to attend and everything else.

Given that, the book by its cover thing is pretty much here to stay. So you can spend your life fighting it, or find a style within it that doesn't reek of fighting authority mindlessly.

 

[Taomon]

It's nice conceptually to think that can be changed. But having hired people when I worked for myself, I can tell you that anyone working for me represented ME... not themselves. They were a reflection of ME and MY BUSINESS and represented me to the outside world. And I'm no different from anyone else who will consider hiring your daughter. And that includes the schools she's going to attend and everything else.

Given that, the book by its cover thing is pretty much here to stay. So you can spend your life fighting it, or find a style within it that doesn't reek of fighting authority mindlessly.

Or push for diversity training in the schools. If we want to change the world, it starts with the children. Besides, when it comes to working for a living...yes, one must dress according to the expectations of employers and potential employers.

But this issue is about school. Schools are not private businesses and should not be treated as such. Why not allow the children to have freedom of expression when our capitalist society will quickly extinguish it when they enter the work force...unless they find a job where like-minded people work. And that is not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[AllieBaba]

Here is the thing; Scissors are a weapon, pens & pencils are weapons, bare hands are weapons, bookbags are weapons. These are all common items that are more dangerous than a short decorative chain.

I have done the research for MA schools (the data is available at the MA DOE web site) that shows that fights are more prevalent, knives are more prevalent, guns & bombs are more prevalent, even rape & kidnapping happens more than a child being struck by a chain (actually, there are zero incidents of chains being used as a weapon).

The school has done nothing to safe-guard the kids from guns, knives, bombs or even theft. But chain wallets are banned? The whole thing is a farce. That is why I am lobbying to change the policy. The schools in the surrounding towns (2 of which my daughter attended) allow chain wallets without incident.

However, the chain represents something that a pair of scissors doesn't, and that something is gang-related.

It is. You can argue it's her right all you want. But if the school determines she's advertising something they don't want to deal with, it's good-bye chain.

 

[Taomon]

However, the chain represents something that a pair of scissors doesn't, and that something is gang-related.

It is. You can argue it's her right all you want. But if the school determines she's advertising something they don't want to deal with, it's good-bye chain.

And that is exactly my point. Public schools, where children are mandated to attend, should not subjugate children for expressing themselves. They don't want to deal with gangs or drugs and yet both are prevalent in our schools.

Embrace these differences and we will find a better way to deal with the true issues of violence and disenfranchisement of our children by archaic institutions. It was policies like this and the ill-logical conclusions like yours that caused the trench-coat mafia in Columbine to lash out violently.

Kids are violent in reaction to in-toleration. The answer is not more rules or more prisons. The answer is deinstitutionalization.

 

[Shogun]

soo.. then... would you insist that the public school allow your daughter dress up like a teenaged hooker for Halloween? Do schools have no authority to maintain their standards? If your daughter wanted to wear nipple pasties, thongs and a shirt that says FUCK ME HARD should the school have no say in the matter? I usually disagree with dress codes but I find your arguments wanting.

 

[jillian]

That's because it opposes authority just for the sake of opposing authority and not for any rational reason or with any benefit.

 

[Shogun]

That's because it opposes authority just for the sake of opposing authority and not for any rational reason or with any benefit.

and thats the core problem. I'm reminded of rusty ole babyboomer protestors who could care less about the issue as long as they are defining themselves as a rebel to the status quo. lactivists come to mind.

If I were school admin, i'd probs allow the wallet chain as long as there had been no examples of them being used in a violent fashion. I am no big fan of the automatic bleeching of every variable for the sake of minimizing the chaotic randomness of life.. but, the chool still has the authority to operate according to policy standards accepted by the school board rather than a parent whose decided to throw down a gauntlet for the sake of something as silly as this. Hell, and we wonder why kids become holy terrors and are used to live going their way at every angle and hop.

 

[Taomon]

soo.. then... would you insist that the public school allow your daughter dress up like a teenaged hooker for Halloween? Do schools have no authority to maintain their standards? If your daughter wanted to wear nipple pasties, thongs and a shirt that says FUCK ME HARD should the school have no say in the matter? I usually disagree with dress codes but I find your arguments wanting.

That is not the same thing and you know it. There are city ordinances against nudity and profanity. A chain wallet is neither a display of a human body part nor is is titillating.

Your argument is weak.

 

[Taomon]

That's because it opposes authority just for the sake of opposing authority and not for any rational reason or with any benefit.

You act as though opposing authority is a bad thing, or only appropriate in certain circumstances...such as an issue that you agree with. Just because you feel chain wallets are unfashionable or tasteless, does not make this an act against authority for the sake of being defiant.

You simply disagree. Don't try and belittle my feelings, my daughter's feeling or the feelings of our community.

 

[Taomon]

and thats the core problem. I'm reminded of rusty ole babyboomer protestors who could care less about the issue as long as they are defining themselves as a rebel to the status quo. lactivists come to mind.

If I were school admin, i'd probs allow the wallet chain as long as there had been no examples of them being used in a violent fashion. I am no big fan of the automatic bleeching of every variable for the sake of minimizing the chaotic randomness of life.. but, the chool still has the authority to operate according to policy standards accepted by the school board rather than a parent whose decided to throw down a gauntlet for the sake of something as silly as this. Hell, and we wonder why kids become holy terrors and are used to live going their way at every angle and hop.

So it is wrong to question the school committee, lobby for change, make a case for that change? You act as though I am giving carte blanche to my daughter to defy the school.

My daughter respects the rules of the school and does not wear the wallet. What we are doing is making a case for change and lobbying the school council to put this to a vote.

I'm sorry, where am I wrong about this?

 

[Shogun]

That is not the same thing and you know it. There are city ordinances against nudity and profanity. A chain wallet is neither a display of a human body part nor is is titillating.

Your argument is weak.

No, my arguement pinpoints the falacy of your "fight the power" arguement. Yes, there certainly ARE ordinances... but, what happens when your daughter grows up and needs to define herself according to what issue du jour she is railing against and then assumes that it's her god given right to challenge a necessary status quo.

Further, one COULD argue that nipple pasties on a 12 year old is NOT nudity since the constitution doesn't define the length of acceptable cleavage. AND, your assumption suggests that a school should have no say in weather or not your kid comes to school dressed like a 5 dollar lolita for oct 31. You make allowances for YOUR definition of acceptable but give no quarter to the opinions of the SCHOOL BOARD who are directly responsible for the population of kids rather than the one they babysit for you.

Like i said, im generally against uniforms but your attitude makes a very solid case FOR them.

 

[Shogun]

You act as though opposing authority is a bad thing, or only appropriate in certain circumstances...such as an issue that you agree with. Just because you feel chain wallets are unfashionable or tasteless, does not make this an act against authority for the sake of being defiant.

You simply disagree. Don't try and belittle my feelings, my daughter's feeling or the feelings of our community.

you act as though opposing authority is inherently good. and Yes, it IS only appropriate is certain circumstances. Give this lecture to a judge during a court hearing and see what happens. This isn't the holocaust. Your daughter will live without you forcing your standard onto the population of students for which you are only marginally responsible.

 

[Shogun]

So it is wrong to question the school committee, lobby for change, make a case for that change? You act as though I am giving carte blanche to my daughter to defy the school.

My daughter respects the rules of the school and does not wear the wallet. What we are doing is making a case for change and lobbying the school council to put this to a vote.

I'm sorry, where am I wrong about this?

Indeed, if the line you decide to draw in the sand is chain wallets then I cringe at the lessons your kid is learning about the necessity of protesting the status quo.

I've explained where you are wrong. If you feel that chain wallets is to your kid what guns, rope and a river was to emmet till then so be it. Your effort is no martin luther king speech.

Now, next year when some other kids parents lobby for nipple pasties make sure you don't use any of my arguements here.

 

[manifold]

Sweet! Did you know you can strangle a person with a shoe lace?

Food for thought.

Bare hands too. How you gonna ban those?

 

[manifold]

What a crock of moronic drivel. A chain on a wallet most surely CAN be used AS a weapon. Claiming otherwise is ignorant as hell.

So can a pencil, a pen, car keys, textbooks, shoes, paper clips, a stapler, scissors, a lunchbox, a classroom flagpole (actually witnessed this once), a yard stick, a ruler, a desk, a belt, and of course the ever faithful roll of quarters.

Just sayin...

 

[Ravi]

Bare hands too. How you gonna ban those?

Straight jacket?

 

[Taomon]

No, my arguement pinpoints the falacy of your "fight the power" arguement. Yes, there certainly ARE ordinances... but, what happens when your daughter grows up and needs to define herself according to what issue du jour she is railing against and then assumes that it's her god given right to challenge a necessary status quo.

Further, one COULD argue that nipple pasties on a 12 year old is NOT nudity since the constitution doesn't define the length of acceptable cleavage. AND, your assumption suggests that a school should have no say in weather or not your kid comes to school dressed like a 5 dollar lolita for oct 31. You make allowances for YOUR definition of acceptable but give no quarter to the opinions of the SCHOOL BOARD who are directly responsible for the population of kids rather than the one they babysit for you.

Like i said, im generally against uniforms but your attitude makes a very solid case FOR them.

No, not true at all. And when has the status quo ever been necessary? You act as though speaking out is wrong and you use an extreme example from left field in an attempt to belittle my argument.

My argument is not weak, and the people of Abington MA (and the surrounding communities) have been discussing this in a very lively fashion...and a lot of people are for changing the policy.

You seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing. Don't paint me with that brush brother. Your argument is weak.

 

[Taomon]

you act as though opposing authority is inherently good. and Yes, it IS only appropriate is certain circumstances. Give this lecture to a judge during a court hearing and see what happens. This isn't the holocaust. Your daughter will live without you forcing your standard onto the population of students for which you are only marginally responsible.

Likeweise, the students will live if they vote to change the policy. sheesh, there is nothing wrong with questioning a policy and lobbying against it. The arguments given (here and in my community) for the policy would not stand up in a court of law. Sorry, but that is a fact.

 

[Taomon]

Indeed, if the line you decide to draw in the sand is chain wallets then I cringe at the lessons your kid is learning about the necessity of protesting the status quo.

I've explained where you are wrong. If you feel that chain wallets is to your kid what guns, rope and a river was to emmet till then so be it. Your effort is no martin luther king speech.

Now, next year when some other kids parents lobby for nipple pasties make sure you don't use any of my arguements here.

Face it, your argument against me is weak. There is nothing wrong with teaching a child that if they feel strongly about an issue (and my daughter does), then challenge it logically and lobby for change.

You seem to have forgotten our roots.

 

[jillian]

Face it, your argument against me is weak. There is nothing wrong with teaching a child that if they feel strongly about an issue (and my daughter does), then challenge it logically and lobby for change.

You seem to have forgotten our roots.

There is something very wrong with teaching a child to put herself in a position where she might end up spending her career saying "you want fries with that?"