Fate Worse Than Death

[Amanda]

So the fact that an abortion destroys an unborn baby isn't crucial to you? You say you could never give up a child you gave birth to and (later on ) that you would never have an abortion but . . . it sounds to me like perhaps you are not so sure about this.

I haven't addressed the risk of women's life? Gee I didn't know I was suppose to cover every bit of information.

Ok, read what you wrote and see if you're not giving a double standard. You act like you're nailing me even though I've said countless times I'm not in favor of abortion, then you turn around and say you can't be expected to cover everything. You JUST acted like I hadn't covered something and you went after me for it.

It's a risk worth taking.

And like I said it's a risk I would take. But I can't make that decision for anyone else and I don't think you should be trying to either.

If it's not something a woman wants then take effective birth control but . . . if pregnancy results anyway, take responsibility. I don't believe abortion is the answer.

As long as you beat this same drum for the boys I don't have any argument. It's funny though because I never hear people that want to control women's bodies say much about controlling men's bodies. Maybe you could say a few words on the subject.

Amanda, I'm not sure how you're reading my posts but I think you're hearing anger and soap-boxing from me. It isn't the tone I'm intending and I hope you read my words differently. I don't mean anything I post to sound like 'you're the enemy'; please don't read it as such. You're right, I'm probably not very objective because I can't see murder objectively.

Just calling it like I see it.

Please read my post to Silence on this.

Without a link this doesn't do any good.

Yes, it should be mandated. Girls under 18 are kids and they need all the counseling and help they can get. They should not be going through this emotional and vulnerable time alone.

And forcing them to do something they don't want to do is going to make this "emotional and vulnerable" time easier somehow? Have you ever been emotional and vulnerable?

True, which is why it is crucial that parental (or adult) notification should be mandated, as should counseling. The more information provided the better informed the girl will be. She should have as much information and help as possible.

I don't know how old you are or where you're from, but speaking as someone that is still a teenager I have to tell you we all know pretty much everything there is to know about sex, abortion, birth control, etc. It's not not knowing that leads to problems, it's not caring, or not believing it can happen to me kind of thinking.

Or perhaps they will practice safe sex or maybe even no sex.

You're dreaming. I come from a conservative Baptist family. The first boy I had sex with was a Mennonite! I had family values coming out of my ears, it didn't matter, I WANTED to have sex.

Your tone about abortion sounds fairly casual Amanda. I may be reading it wrong, but the "sure . . . info" remark above seems off-handed to me.

Not at all. I'm just bored with the conversation. Or listening to the lecture.

If you ever have a daughter, look me up and tell me how you feel about this when she's 15 or so.

If I ever forget what it's like to be emotional and vulnerable or scared and alone I might change my mind about some of this, yeah.

Guilt trip? How to you come to that conclusion? Like I said if someone chooses to have an abortion they should at least own up to the fact that a human life is destroyed by that choice.

I hope you never say that to anyone that is dealing with this. I don't think you can imagine how much damage you could do.

As have I. My intention is not to add to anyone's burden but like I said to Silence, I'm not going to sugar-coat anything or make abortion seem less than what it is.

So, just out of curiosity, how would you feel if you laid this on a girl and she went out to the barn and hung herself? Would that be a big success to know that you really got through to her? Just wondering, cos I knew a family that had that go down. Maybe you want to try to imagine the look on her oh-so-righteous fathers face when he discovered her the next morning the next time you're talking up your "not a guilt trip" line.

 

[eots]

of that I have no doubt eots, that they would fight to survive but you're comparing a child who is already alive and knows life with a fetus who is floating in a water sac unable to hear or see and knows nothing of the outside world and does not know of love, hate or anything that goes into living.

so you have never seen the silent scream as a baby struggles to avoid the suction hose the open s it mouth in a unheard scream as his extremities a torn from his body..a new born knows nothing of life ..can we murder them as well ?

Some will go onto greatness and I hope for their sake they do. Others will go on to be criminals and/or drains on society. I don't advocate abortion, I advocate the right of a women to choose what is right for her.

why do her rights.. for her wants supercede another individuals right to life

ever heard the phrase you never miss what you never had? The world does not miss these children. If they were destined to be born they would be born. it's all part of the bigger picture.

so does this apply to child rape and murder as well..destiny..its all good in the big picture...don't speak for the world ..I miss these children..I feel the loss

 

[Silence]

This speaks volumns. Do you hear what you're saying?

"I find it disgusting that so much emphasis is placed on 'yet to be born' children".

I find it disguisting that you find 'yet to be born children' worthless and disposable.

I don't find them worthless or disposable, those are your words. I find it disgusting that you think they are more important than the children who are already here and in need of love and care.

You think it's all about protecting life but in reality it's about controlling women.

I have a child, the one everyone said I should abort because of the situation but I kept her and I love her dearly...then I had to have an abortion to save my own life and spare her from growing up without a mother so I know both sides of the situation. Don't presume to think you know what it's like unless you've been there. You're speaking about a situation that is unique to each person and you have no right to make judgements.

 

[Silence]

so does this apply to child rape and murder as well..destiny..its all good in the big picture...don't speak for the world ..I miss these children..I feel the loss

sorry but that's total bullshit. You miss every child that's ever been aborted? bitch please. If you do then you must be one miserable fucking person. Do you also miss every child who is murdered by their parents after they are born? I feel bad for THOSE children. They were brought into this world and knew the worst kind of cruelty..having to look into the eyes of the one person who you think loves you no matter what and knowing they don't love you....at least the aborted ones got off easy...they never saw it coming.

 

[eots]

I don't find them worthless or disposable, those are your words.

well after being sucked of their stem cells they are indeed disposed of ..so what value is it you perceive a unborn child of possessing ?

it disgusting that you think they are more important than the children who are already here and in need of love and care

.

who said they where more important.. I don't want them killing born children either

You think it's all about protecting life but in reality it's about controlling women.

you think its about controlling woman because you have issues with men
and project that on this issue..its about trying to stop the killing of the innocent

I have a child, the one everyone said I should abort

that's part of the problem..its everyone's first answer ...especially the more acceptable it becomes

but I kept her and I love her dearly...then I had to have an abortion to save my own life and spare her from growing up without a mother

to save the life of the mother is a different situation very rare yet frequently used in this debate

so I know both sides of the situation.

no ..you only know the very rare exception of the life of the mother being at risk..a very sad and tragic event but understandable and forgivable

Don't presume to think you know what it's like unless you've been there. You're speaking about a situation that is unique to each person and you have no right to make judgements

its not that unique most of the time...and when it comes to taking the life of another human i have not only a right but a reasonability to judge it

 

[eots]

sorry but that's total bullshit. You miss every child that's ever been aborted? bitch please. If you do then you must be one miserable fucking person.

I live in a certain sweet suffering..the agony and the ecstasy

Do you also miss every child who is murdered by their parents after they are born? I feel bad for THOSE children. They were brought into this world and knew the worst kind of cruelty..having to look into the eyes of the one person who you think loves you no matter what and knowing they don't love you....

my baby's mother was stabbed in the chest by her father when she was three in a schizophrenic episode but survived so she saw that face..and overcame..and is happy to be alive..and happy to have given life

at least the aborted ones got off easy...they never saw it coming.

or perhaps this is more a reflection on your own unresolved pains

 

[Zoom-boing]

I don't find them worthless or disposable, those are your words. I find it disgusting that you think they are more important than the children who are already here and in need of love and care.

Not more important, just as important.

You think it's all about protecting life but in reality it's about controlling women.

Wrong, you think it's all about controlling women. I know it's about saving a human life.

I have a child, the one everyone said I should abort because of the situation but I kept her and I love her dearly...then I had to have an abortion to save my own life and spare her from growing up without a mother so I know both sides of the situation. Don't presume to think you know what it's like unless you've been there. You're speaking about a situation that is unique to each person and you have no right to make judgements.

Nor do you.

 

[Zoom-boing]

As long as you beat this same drum for the boys I don't have any argument. It's funny though because I never hear people that want to control women's bodies say much about controlling men's bodies. Maybe you could say a few words on the subject.

What about the boy who wants the child but the girl says 'tough, I'm having an abortion'? Where is his choice? The boy who is long gone . . . the girl has other options besides abortion. Adoption is one.


Without a link this doesn't do any good.

The post I made to Silence on this is just above the post I made to you or on the previous page.

And forcing them to do something they don't want to do is going to make this "emotional and vulnerable" time easier somehow? Have you ever been emotional and vulnerable?


You're not hearing me. I didn't say 'forcing them to do something they don't want to do'. I said providing them will all the information, all options and giving them the counseling and support they need for whatever their decision is.

I don't know how old you are or where you're from, but speaking as someone that is still a teenager I have to tell you we all know pretty much everything there is to know about sex, abortion, birth control, etc. It's not not knowing that leads to problems, it's not caring, or not believing it can happen to me kind of thinking.

Pro-abortion and anti-abortion people will never come to a full understanding on this but the one thing I believe they both want is less abortion in general. Early sex education is paramount to helping achieve this. All forms of birth control, including abstinence, should be taught. All consequences of sex should be taught and that includes the graphic information of what abortion truly is. Perhaps if boys and girls are given this information and realize that yes, it CAN happen to you, they will make to sure practice safe sex. And believe it or not Amanda, there are those teenagers who do practice abstinence. Having that graphic abortion image in their mind just may prevent an unplanned pregnancy. No sugar-coating or PC it up; call it what it is.

You're dreaming. I come from a conservative Baptist family. The first boy I had sex with was a Mennonite! I had family values coming out of my ears, it didn't matter, I WANTED to have sex.

As long as you used birth control, I have no issue with this.

Not at all. I'm just bored with the conversation. Or listening to the lecture.

Really? Sounds to me like you are indifferent and that you don't care about anyone but yourself.

So, just out of curiosity, how would you feel if you laid this on a girl and she went out to the barn and hung herself? Would that be a big success to know that you really got through to her? Just wondering, cos I knew a family that had that go down. Maybe you want to try to imagine the look on her oh-so-righteous fathers face when he discovered her the next morning the next time you're talking up your "not a guilt trip" line.

I have no idea of the circumstances of this, as you provide vague details. Was she pregnant when she took her life? Had she already had an abortion? Was any counseling given to her? Any adult to talk to her? How old was she? What were the other circumstances in her life? Don't throw a line or two out to me and expect me to know the details.

If you equate what I'm saying with a guilt trip, maybe you need to ask yourself why that is.

 

[Amanda]

I have no idea of the circumstances of this, as you provide vague details. Was she pregnant when she took her life? Had she already had an abortion? Was any counseling given to her? Any adult to talk to her? How old was she? What were the other circumstances in her life? Don't throw a line or two out to me and expect me to know the details.

If you equate what I'm saying with a guilt trip, maybe you need to ask yourself why that is.

She got "counseling" along the lines of what you're throwing out there.

I don't know why you think it's important to try to make people feel bad about their decision if it isn't what you prefer they do. Asking me to analyze that seems like a waste of time because it sounds like a problem you need to look at.

I don't think very much, if any, good can come from your basically negative approach. People don't not do things because of fear of punishment. People don't do things because they have better options. You want less abortions? Start talking about how you're going to make fathers man up and take responsibility. Your "boy wants the child and she aborts anyway" scenario is basically a fantasy. If it ever happens it must be quite rare because I've never heard of it happening, but I hear the "boy ran away" story ALL the time. So yeah, I noticed you didn't really address how you would suggest boys be made to be responsible. I'm not surprised, because this issue isn't about controlling boys, only girls. FAIL.

 

[Silence]

I was pro-choice before I was confronted with the situation of having to make the choice and I always said it wasn't a choice I could make myself but I wouldn't begrudge ANY woman the freedom to make her own decision and live with that decision. Then I was confronted with having to make that choice and trust me when i tell you, it's the hardest, most painful choice I've ever had to make. I think about what it would've been like to have another child because I wanted more children. I love being a mother and am told I'm very good at it.

I'm not saying you, eots and zoom, aren't entitled to your opinions but unless you've been faced with that decision you can't possibly understand what it's like. and while I agree that children are precious and should be protected I'm not willing to throw women back into a era where they were forced into alleys where greedy dirty asshole took their money and then dug that fetus out with a spoon and left them for dead.

Women will terminate the pregnancy if that is what they wish to do...shouldn't it be safe and legal or should women be made to pay with their lives for making a decision that you disagree with?

 

[editec]

I honestly don't know how your conscience doesn't keep you up at night. Abortion is murder, stop trying to spin it into a thing of convenience. Stop treating life so damn casually.

I honestly don't know how your conscience doesn't keep you up at night.

Forced birthing is brood-mare slavery, stop trying to spin it into a matter of conscience.

Stop treating other people's lives as though you owned them.

 

[eots]

I was pro-choice before I was confronted with the situation of having to make the choice and I always said it wasn't a choice I could make myself but I wouldn't begrudge ANY woman the freedom to make her own decision and live with that decision. Then I was confronted with having to make that choice and trust me when i tell you, it's the hardest, most painful choice I've ever had to make. I think about what it would've been like to have another child because I wanted more children. I love being a mother and am told I'm very good at it.

well then you made a regretful mistake..but God will forgive the repentant

I'm not saying you, eots and zoom, aren't entitled to your opinions but unless you've been faced with that decision you can't possibly understand what it's like.

you don't know that..and you cant assume that..

and while I agree that children are precious and should be protected I'm not willing to throw women back into a era where they were forced into alleys where greedy dirty asshole took their money and then dug that fetus out with a spoon and left them for dead.

you mean like what happens to thousands of baby's ever year

Women will terminate the pregnancy if that is what they wish to do...

why ?. and.dont you think making it a easy and acceptable choice it will greatly increase the frequency

shouldn't it be safe and legal or should women be made to pay with their lives for making a decision that you disagree with

they have choice..if they make that choice it may have consequences

 

[Silence]

well then you made a regretful mistake..but God will forgive the repentant

I didn't make a mistake. My daughter still has her mother and I am able to give a lot to the community that otherwise wouldn't be given if I were dead. God doesn't need to forgive me for utilizing a medical procedure that he obviously gave doctor's the capability to perform.

you mean like what happens to thousands of baby's ever year

that's pro-life bullshit

why ?. and.dont you think making it a easy and acceptable choice it will greatly increase the frequency

no I don't. No one said it's easy and it's certainly not acceptable. most women don't tell people they have an abortion because of people like you who scream murder. It's almost as shameful as being raped IMO. I'm not ashamed though. I made the right decision for myself and the child I already had who depended on me as her only parent.

they have choice..if they make that choice it may have consequences

and what of the man's choice? what if they woman says I don't want children but I will give birth and he can raise it but the man says fuck that? When man take equal responsibility from the moment of conception through the child's 18th birthday then we can talk about who really has a choice.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I honestly don't know how your conscience doesn't keep you up at night.

Forced birthing is brood-mare slavery, stop trying to spin it into a matter of conscience.

Stop treating other people's lives as though you owned them.

You have a very odd take on things ed . . .

Abortion is the killing of a human life. Like I said previously ed, you can spin this 1000 ways to China and you cannot change this fact.

 

[eots]

I

didn't make a mistake. My daughter still has her mother and I am able to give a lot to the community that otherwise wouldn't be given if I were dead. God doesn't need to forgive me for utilizing a medical procedure that he obviously gave doctor's the capability to perform.

yes a god made man capable of building gas chambers as well ...however if your life was in grave danger as you say you are the excerption to the rule

that's pro-life bullshit

no its the ugly truth

no I don't. No one said it's easy and it's certainly not acceptable. most women don't tell people they have an abortion because of people like you who scream murder.

that has not been my life experience..it seems the ones shouting murder face a harder time

It's almost as shameful as being raped IMO. I'm not ashamed though. I made the right decision for myself and the child I already had who depended on me as her only parent.

if your life was in danger then yes ..you made a painful and difficult choice only you could make and I have no issue with it ...and empathy for you..

and what of the man's choice? what if they woman says I don't want children but I will give birth and he can raise it

that is exactly what I am doing as we speak

but the man says fuck that? When man take equal responsibility from the moment of conception through the child's 18th birthday then we can talk about who really has a choice.

[

or when a man has the right to stop his child from being unnecessarily terminated

 

[editec]

And YOU have an arrogance that comes from deluding yourself into thinking you have the RIGHT and DUTY to tell other people what to do with their lives and bodies, Zoom.

I guess it comes down to my Protestant upbringing, Zoom.

When it comes to matters of conscience and procreation, it's a matter strictly between the individual and GOD.

Neither you nor I has any right to tell other people what to do with their own bodies especially when it comes to procreation.

Let me tell you something I doubt you'll believe.

Giving the government the right to tell women they MUST procreate puts us ALL on that slope where the govermenht will decide WHO CAN procreate.

Another person's womb is NONE of your fucking business.

 

[eots]

And YOU have an arrogance that comes from deluding yourself into thinking you have the RIGHT and DUTY to tell other people what to do with their lives and bodies, Zoom.

I guess it comes down to my Protestant upbringing, Zoom.


Neither you nor I has any right to tell other people what to do with their own bodies especially when it comes to procreation.

Let me tell you something I doubt you'll believe.

Giving the government the right to tell women they MUST procreate puts us ALL on that slope where the govermenht will decide WHO CAN procreate.

Another person's womb is NONE of your fucking business.

not as slippery as the sl9op that allows the government to decide a life can be terminated..soon they will decide who shall live and who shall die..and start harvesting organs,,and forcing abortion under a one child plan

 

[Silence]

not as slippery as the sl9op that allows the government to decide a life can be terminated..soon they will decide who shall live and who shall die..and start harvesting organs,,and forcing abortion under a one child plan

wow...get your tinfoil hat ready

 

[Amanda]

not As Slippery As The Sl9op That Allows The Government To Decide A Life Can Be Terminated..soon They Will Decide Who Shall Live And Who Shall Die..and Start Harvesting Organs,,and Forcing Abortion Under A One Child Plan

Wtf?

 

[eots]

fact.. plan parenthood was started by eugenicist..china embraces abortion..then implemented forced abortion..produce all kinds of fetal based products and the live harvest the organs of prisoners...it could never happen here ?..you mean like the government would never own the banks..or socialize wall street