Fate Worse Than Death

[strollingbones]

i will be happy to give anyone the name of an orphanage in avery county nc where you may adopt a child.....

 

[sky dancer]

Should we post pictures of the women lying dead in their own blood with their aborted babies or dying from infection from coat hanger and back alley abortions?

At least, one life has been saved. The life of the mother who would have died with her child.

Women used to be desperate enough to committ suicide over an unwanted pregnancy.

We have within our means the ability to ensure that most pregancies can be planned events.

Why do the same nutcases who are such rabid anti-abortionists also object to contraception?

 

[WillowTree]

Should we post pictures of the women lying dead in their own blood with their aborted babies or dying from infection from coat hanger and back alley abortions?

At least, one life has been saved. The life of the mother who would have died with her child.

Women used to be desperate enough to committ suicide over an unwanted pregnancy.

We have within our means the ability to ensure that most pregancies can be planned events.

Why do the same nutcases who are such rabid anti-abortionists also object to contraception?

so basically what you just said is the mother's life is worth saving the child is a peice of crap.. oh jeez..

 

[Missourian]

FATE WORSE THAN DEATH

When a woman has an abortion, she is saying loud and clear that she does not want to be a parent.

Pssst...she could really say loud and clear she didn't want to be a parent....by not getting pregnant....sshhh, don't let it get around.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Should we post pictures of the women lying dead in their own blood with their aborted babies or dying from infection from coat hanger and back alley abortions?

Abortions will take place whether they are legal or not, no one is disputing that.

We have within our means the ability to ensure that most pregancies can be planned events.

Then why are there so many unplanned pregnancies that result in abortions?

Why do the same nutcases who are such rabid anti-abortionists also object to contraception?

I didn't see any mention of this in this thread. Did I miss it?

 

[Amanda]

I view myself as conservative but on abortion I have to support a woman having the right to control her own body. I can not imagine ever having an abortion but if I didn't have a choice what does that make me? An incubator serving someone else's agenda? That's like being a slave.

I think we need better laws around the whole process. If women should be forced to continue with a pregnancy whether they want to or not, the father should be forced to provide support whether he wants to or not. Etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of any forcing. I can not imagine a happy, healthy child coming from that environment.

 

[eots]

I view myself as conservative but on abortion I have to support a woman having the right to control her own body. I can not imagine ever having an abortion but if I didn't have a choice what does that make me? An incubator serving someone else's agenda? That's like being a slave.

no it makes you someone who is taking responsibility for their actions
by sacrificing a part of yourself for 9 months...

I think we need better laws around the whole process. If women should be forced to continue with a pregnancy whether they want to or not, the father should be forced to provide support whether he wants to or not. Etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of any forcing

fathers are forced to pay support for at least 18 years if he wants a child or not ,,like a slave...I guess that gives him the right to murder his enslavers

. I can not imagine a happy, healthy child coming from that environment

adoption....

 

[editec]

I view myself as conservative but on abortion I have to support a woman having the right to control her own body. I can not imagine ever having an abortion but if I didn't have a choice what does that make me? An incubator serving someone else's agenda? That's like being a slave.

I think we need better laws around the whole process. If women should be forced to continue with a pregnancy whether they want to or not, the father should be forced to provide support whether he wants to or not. Etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of any forcing. I can not imagine a happy, healthy child coming from that environment.

An extremely sensible position, in my opinion

The hidden agenda in most anti-abortionists is their desire to punish people for having had sex, ya know.

They'll never admit it, of course, but most prolifers are just people jealous of people who have had sex.

Since sexual liberty scares the hell of out them, they like to punish those for whom it's no big deal.

 

[eots]

Should we post pictures of the women lying dead in their own blood with their aborted babies or dying from infection from coat hanger and back alley abortions?

At least, one life has been saved. The life of the mother who would have died with her child.

how about if the irresponsible bitch is so stupid and selfish and crude as to be sticking coat hangers up her snatch in a ally to kill her baby..she deserves to die in a pool of her own blood...

Women used to be desperate enough to committ suicide over an unwanted pregnancy.

and now they commit murder..the stigma of unwed motherhood was the problem much more so than pregnancy

We have within our means the ability to ensure that most pregnancys can be planned events.

Why do the same nutcases who are such rabid anti-abortionists also object to contraception

Not many people object to birth control that is preventative and not retroactive

 

[Silence]

no it makes you someone who is taking responsibility for their actions
by sacrificing a part of yourself for 9 months...

I love this "take responsibility" bullshit that you all throw around. Sometimes birth control fails. Should the woman be forced to endure a pregnangy and birth just because YOU say she should?

fathers are forced to pay support for at least 18 years if he wants a child or not ,,like a slave...I guess that gives him the right to murder his enslavers

clearly you have no clue about the epidemic of men in arrears of their child support. Men can walk away the minute they deposit their sperm. If men carried the children and women could walk away scott free abortion wouldn't be up for debate. It's just another way for men to try to control women.

adoption....

you make adoption sound like it's easy. We're not all Angelina Jolie ya know. adoption takes money. I guess those poor girls with no money and little education should be incubators for those rich women who might not want stretch marks so they just adopt. Tell me of a middle class or poor family who can afford to adopt? I'd love to adopt a child but I can't afford it....

 

[Amanda]

clearly you have no clue about the epidemic of men in arrears of their child support. Men can walk away the minute they deposit their sperm. If men carried the children and women could walk away scott free abortion wouldn't be up for debate. It's just another way for men to try to control women.

This is absolutely true. If men could get pregnant there would be more abortion clinics than Starbucks.

 

[eots]

I love this "take responsibility" bullshit that you all throw around. Sometimes birth control fails. Should the woman be forced to endure a pregnangy and birth just because YOU say she should?

abortions are not mainly due to failed birth control and that does not relive you of responsibility for your actions...enduring pregnancy is hardly the end of the world it happens everywhere everyday..it its not because I said so ..its because it is moral and loving choice

clearly you have no clue about the epidemic of men in arrears of their child support. Men can walk away the minute they deposit their sperm. If men carried the children and women could walk away scott free abortion wouldn't be up for debate. It's just another way for men to try to control women.

men in arrears is irrelevant.. another issue

you make adoption sound like it's easy. We're not all Angelina Jolie ya know. adoption takes money. I guess those poor girls with no money and little education should be incubators for those rich women who might not want stretch marks so they just adopt. Tell me of a middle class or poor family who can afford to adopt? I'd love to adopt a child but I can't afford it

are you really this stupid..there are waiting lists to adopt children no need to kill them ,,your expenses during your pregnancy will be generously provided for
there are no... unwanted baby's

 

[Zoom-boing]

I view myself as conservative but on abortion I have to support a woman having the right to control her own body. I can not imagine ever having an abortion but if I didn't have a choice what does that make me? An incubator serving someone else's agenda? That's like being a slave.

I've asked this a few times and no one has answered. When a woman has an abortion, what part of her body is no longer entact after the abortion? What part of her body is removed? Her 'choice' isn't about her body it's about whether another human being lives or dies.

Exactly what is this woman an 'incubator' for?

Did you ever hear of adoption?

I think we need better laws around the whole process. If women should be forced to continue with a pregnancy whether they want to or not, the father should be forced to provide support whether he wants to or not. Etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of any forcing. I can not imagine a happy, healthy child coming from that environment.

While I am opposed to abortion I do not necessarily believe that reversing Roe v. Wade will decrease abortion. It may increase illegal abortions, I don't know. I am in favor of whatever will reduce the number of abortions and if this means keeping it legal with numerous restrictions then so be it.

Why are so many pro-abortion people so opposed to restrictions on abortions?

 

[Zoom-boing]

An extremely sensible position, in my opinion

The hidden agenda in most anti-abortionists is their desire to punish people for having had sex, ya know.

They'll never admit it, of course, but most prolifers are just people jealous of people who have had sex.

Since sexual liberty scares the hell of out them, they like to punish those for whom it's no big deal.

Please tell me this is meant as humor. Otherwise I've given you way too much credit ed.

 

[Amanda]

I hate to multi-quote but you asked too many questions to do it any other way.

I've asked this a few times and no one has answered. When a woman has an abortion, what part of her body is no longer entact after the abortion?

I never tried to make that point so I'm not going to defend that point.

Her 'choice' isn't about her body it's about whether another human being lives or dies.

It's absolutely about her body and her life. You can say it's also about the unborn baby but you can't remove the incubator from the equation or you don't have an equation, so it has to be about her body.

Exactly what is this woman an 'incubator' for?

Did you ever hear of adoption?

This is probably where you're losing people. It looks like you want to argue semantics (is it a human life, is it a tissue mass, etc) and you sound condescending (of course I've heard of adoption). If you really want to talk about the issue I think you need to approach it more openly and honestly. If you don't have any room for compromise there's no reason to talk.

While I am opposed to abortion I do not necessarily believe that reversing Roe v. Wade will decrease abortion. It may increase illegal abortions, I don't know. I am in favor of whatever will reduce the number of abortions and if this means keeping it legal with numerous restrictions then so be it.

Why are so many pro-abortion people so opposed to restrictions on abortions?

Probably the same reason so many gun people are opposed to any restrictions. They see the meddling hand of someone they don't believe has their best interest at heart trying to control them.

I've never been pregnant, and I can't speak for anyone else so just take this for what it's worth. Like I said before I can't imagine ever having an abortion, I just wouldn't do it. If I were pregnant and it was the baby or me, I'd die to bring it into the world. I don't think I can imagine the anguish someone would go through if they had an abortion. But I'm not here to judge anyone for what they do, whether it's sex that someone else doesn't think they should be having or what they do if they end up pregnant.

 

[Silence]

abortions are not mainly due to failed birth control and that does not relive you of responsibility for your actions...enduring pregnancy is hardly the end of the world it happens everywhere everyday..it its not because I said so ..its because it is moral and loving choice

not the end of the world but perhaps the end of your life. I had to terminate a pregnancy due to the fact that I'd have died if I went through with it.... sometimes these choices have to be made.

men in arrears is irrelevant.. another issue

only irrelveant if you want to ignore the fact that women bear the burden of caring for these children that you think deserve the chance at life. Only irrelevant if you want to ignore how many women live in poverty with their children while these men live in comfort. Yes, totally irrelevant, only because it ruins your argument that men are forced to pay for the children they help make.

are you really this stupid..there are waiting lists to adopt children no need to kill them ,,your expenses during your pregnancy will be generously provided for
there are no... unwanted baby's

are you really this stupid? there are waiting lists for WHITE children....newborn babies with pink cheeks and blue eyes. yep yep.... how many people do you think are lining up for the minority babies or babies with health problems? get a fucking clue. and yes there are unwanted babies....one only need watch the news to see evidence of this...otherwise why do parents abuse and neglect their children. Your pie in the sky bullshit of all babies are wanted and precious is ridiculous.

How many children do you foster or have you adopted btw?

 

[Care4all]

An extremely sensible position, in my opinion

The hidden agenda in most anti-abortionists is their desire to punish people for having had sex, ya know.

They'll never admit it, of course, but most prolifers are just people jealous of people who have had sex.

Since sexual liberty scares the hell of out them, they like to punish those for whom it's no big deal.

Well Editec, I think it is much more complicated than all of that, although perhaps some of those who are against abortion might be harboring the feelings you have described...

But for the most part, at least on the Male side that is against abortion, there are actively sexual males... in their own personal lives, now... as single men, or before they were married and were single men, none of them seemed to be abstaining from having sex themselves until married...or until in a very serious, committed, relationship or engagement that would welcome a "mishap" and be ready, willing and able to be a Father within 9 months.

I am not disagreeing that there is some sort of sadistic "Wearing the Scarlett Letter" syndrone where there is some sort of pleasure or even a deserved sort of pennance that is put upon "the Woman" for having sex, outside of marriage while not putting the same degree of scrutiny upon the men who equally do such.... (though, admittingly as a female, this perspective could be a bit skewed.)

But setting this aside, there is also the aspect of many... if not all, of the politicians involved in pushing their agenda in bringing "Out the Vote" by using it....WHO ALMOST ALWAYS makes certain that nothing really gets done to remedy the Anti Roe vs Wade agenda so that they can use this very contentiously HOT issue AGAIN in the next election....

this has been going on for a near two Decades now where Republicans have been in the majority in the House of representatives from 1994 until January of 2007, where NOTHING was done on the issue of Abortion of any significance and they were the Majority in the House of Congress that drives the Agenda...

Nuff said on what i think on that....

But then there is one of the issues involved in this debate of Abortion being permitted, at least up until 12 weeks, federally, due to the Supreme Court Ruling on roe v wade....vs. the people within the States themselves having the right to decide thru their own representation and legislation and varying state constitutions.

I think you are selling short the idea that some people realize that abortion is a termination of Pregnancy in shorthand Medical terms, a TOP....pregnancy is the creation of an offspring....

A creation of an offspring, is not a glob of cells, or a parasite, or the same as ones own skin cells or toenail cells or the cells of a sperm or of the cells of an unconceived egg in the female...

as I have seen many of those who accept abortion as an option for the pregnant woman describe what she is aborting.

She is aborting her CHILD, or her CHILD TO BE for those of you that find it hard to accept these very special, miraculous dividing cells that multiply and develop in to another, separate, human being are actually a human being....but they are separate human beings with separate Dna from the mothers and the fathers that created them...

and another thing, when you terminate something living, such as terminating an offspring, or terminating a pregnancy which is one and the same, you are killing ''something'' that is living.

Are they alive like you and me? You betcha!

Well in most cases, they will be, if not terminated before the 9 months are up and they are allowed to come in to fruition.

But are they the SAME as you and me at this point in the embryo or early fetus stage?

This is where the argument comes in, and a legitimate argument at that....as to when a fetus has personhood status, and gets all the same legal rights as if he/she were born, or at least some of the legal rights that we have of protection....at least in my opinion...

some take the argument of when the baby begins kicking, after 12 weeks or so, some take the position of not at all, and some take the position of up until the child is viable, or could survive outside of the mother's womb, some take the position it is still a meaningless glob of cells etc etc etc....

And as far as the last one, I can assure you that i have never heard a woman faced with a unforseen pregnancy think of what is happening to her as just a parasite or a glob of cells....

I don't believe for the most part she would think such a thing....i think she is faced with a very hard decision and it is not easily made, and for the most part, many of these girls end up going on and having children later in life and do not hate them, as some others have implied in the beginning of this thread.

At the same time, I do not believe the women that have gone on and chosen to terminate their pregnancy thought of what they were doing was killing a live, breathing person either.

And then there is also the issue of it being NONE of the government's business on what happens with a woman and her doctor and her health or her reproductive situtation, period...while still begging the question of, why not? to many others, who see the child to be as a living, human being....

It's just so much more complicated of an ethical issue than what we tend to think or want to think, like with the ethical issue of whether our gvt should have the power to intrude on ones own personal life or whether the gvt has the right to even protect the unborn, future offspring, of someone else...from being killed, imo.

Care

 

[Zoom-boing]

I never tried to make that point so I'm not going to defend that point.

Sorry Amanda, but this question is crucial. A pregnant woman who walks in to have an abortion walks out with every single piece of her body entact. Why, she can even have children later on if desired. She does not have any part of her body changed. She has the life of her unborn child destroyed.

It's absolutely about her body and her life. You can say it's also about the unborn baby but you can't remove the incubator from the equation or you don't have an equation, so it has to be about her body.

Gee, ya think???

Nope sorry not buying it. Her choice is about whether or not the unborn child lives or dies. NOTHING about her body is removed; the unborn child is destroyed. And what is she incubating? A chicken, a dog, a shoe? She is incubating human life and when she aborts, she kills that human life. You cannot change that fact or spin your way around it.

This is probably where you're losing people. It looks like you want to argue semantics (is it a human life, is it a tissue mass, etc) and you sound condescending (of course I've heard of adoption). If you really want to talk about the issue I think you need to approach it more openly and honestly. If you don't have any room for compromise there's no reason to talk.

Tissue mass? More spin to ease the conscience. There is no doubt that what is inside of a pregnant woman is life and since humans give birth to humans . . . it is human life.

Approach abortion more openly and honestly? How much more open and honest need I be? Abortion is murder. Period.

Probably the same reason so many gun people are opposed to any restrictions. They see the meddling hand of someone they don't believe has their best interest at heart trying to control them.

Restrictions on abortions are there to protect the baby and the mother. Parental notification, counseling, all options and information provided to the mother. How are these meddling? Shouldn't someone who is contemplating aborting their child be given all facts and information and options? If you had a daughter and she was under age 18 and got pregnant wouldn't you want to be notified? Or would you prefer she go off and have an abortion without your knowledge?

I've never been pregnant, and I can't speak for anyone else so just take this for what it's worth. Like I said before I can't imagine ever having an abortion, I just wouldn't do it. If I were pregnant and it was the baby or me, I'd die to bring it into the world. I don't think I can imagine the anguish someone would go through if they had an abortion. But I'm not here to judge anyone for what they do, whether it's sex that someone else doesn't think they should be having or what they do if they end up pregnant.

I am in no way passing judgement on anyone who has had an abortion. I have friends who've had them. I am just saying that abortion is the killing of an unborn child and anyone who chooses to believe the 'it's my body' line is doing so to ease their conscience. No offense to anyone who's gone through this. If someone is going to have an abortion at least own up to the fact that in order for you to 'get on with your life' you destroy a human being in the process.

 

[Silence]

Sorry Amanda, but this question is crucial. A pregnant woman who walks in to have an abortion walks out with every single piece of her body entact. Why, she can even have children later on if desired. She does not have any part of her body changed. She has the life of her unborn child destroyed.

but without the mother's body the fetus can not survive therefore it IS in fact PART of her body until such time as it can live outside the womb. If the woman's body weren't necessary then why not grow babies in incubators?

Gee, ya think???

Nope sorry not buying it. Her choice is about whether or not the unborn child lives or dies. NOTHING about her body is removed; the unborn child is destroyed. And what is she incubating? A chicken, a dog, a shoe? She is incubating human life and when she aborts, she kills that human life. You cannot change that fact or spin your way around it.

you're being overly simplistic and I assume you're doing so because it's the only argument you have. If you assume that women go into abortion lightly then you've never known anyone who had the make that decision. Now there are in fact women who do it callusly and without much thought, those women IMO have no business having children in the first place. Most women agonize over the decision and it's one that they think about for the rest of their lives. Some come to regret their decision while others, while sad for the choice they HAD to make would make that same choice again under those circumstances.

Tissue mass? More spin to ease the conscience. There is no doubt that what is inside of a pregnant woman is life and since humans give birth to humans . . . it is human life.

Whose conscience needs to be eased? If you disagree with abortion then don't have one. it's pretty simple.

Approach abortion more openly and honestly? How much more open and honest need I be? Abortion is murder. Period.

see you lose your argument right there because there are instances when abortion shouldn't even be questioned. Rape, Incest, birth defects that would make the quality of life unbearable, life of the mother.

Restrictions on abortions are there to protect the baby and the mother. Parental notification, counseling, all options and information provided to the mother. How are these meddling? Shouldn't someone who is contemplating aborting their child be given all facts and information and options? If you had a daughter and she was under age 18 and got pregnant wouldn't you want to be notified? Or would you prefer she go off and have an abortion without your knowledge?

and what of young girls whose parents are abusive? should she also be made to tell her parents she is pregnant? what of the young girl who is a victim of incest by a family member? what of the young girl who has no parents to speak of?

I don't disagree with some restrictions on abortion as I've said before. But to outlaw them completely? I have no desire to go back to the time when women were forced into back alley's and their lives risked for what should be a safe and simple medical procedure.

I am in no way passing judgement on anyone who has had an abortion. I have friends who've had them. I am just saying that abortion is the killing of an unborn child and anyone who chooses to believe the 'it's my body' line is doing so to ease their conscience. No offense to anyone who's gone through this. If someone is going to have an abortion at least own up to the fact that in order for you to 'get on with your life' you destroy a human being in the process.

you pass judgement everytime you say it's MURDER. how do you think that makes a woman feel who may have had to have an abortion?

It is my body and it is my choice. that's not said to ease my conscience or to asuage my guilt, that's the facts. You do with your body what you choose and I'll do with mine what I choose. You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to foist that opinion on me and make me do things just because you think I should.

 

[Amanda]

Sorry Amanda, but this question is crucial. A pregnant woman who walks in to have an abortion walks out with every single piece of her body entact. Why, she can even have children later on if desired. She does not have any part of her body changed. She has the life of her unborn child destroyed.

Maybe it's crucial to you, but it's not crucial to me. If I'm forced to have a child it's 9 months of I don't get the final say about my body. I could never give up a child I gave birth to so it's another 18 years I don't get the final say about my life. Effectively we're really talking about the rest of my life because the bond wouldn't be broken because the child legally became an adult.

A woman also risks her life to have a baby, which is a point I haven't seen you address.

If there was any sort of guarantee that the father would stay around I would have a different view entirely. But all of the burden is put on the woman, she can't just decide to leave whenever she's done playing house. IMO, that's why our society has given her the power to choose, because it's the only choice she's going to get.

Gee, ya think???

Nope sorry not buying it. Her choice is about whether or not the unborn child lives or dies. NOTHING about her body is removed; the unborn child is destroyed. And what is she incubating? A chicken, a dog, a shoe? She is incubating human life and when she aborts, she kills that human life. You cannot change that fact or spin your way around it.

I've never said anything else. I don't try to sugar coat it, I'm not a fan of abortion.

Tissue mass? More spin to ease the conscience. There is no doubt that what is inside of a pregnant woman is life and since humans give birth to humans . . . it is human life.

Approach abortion more openly and honestly? How much more open and honest need I be? Abortion is murder. Period.

More honesty in that you're not listening, you're just bellowing talking points. I'm not spinning anything when I say 'tissue mass' I'm mentioning what some people call it. You're approaching this like I'm an enemy because I know a term used by pro-choice people. If I live in a gang infested neighborhood and pick up on gang signs does that mean I'm in a gang? No. You're not looking at any of this objectively.

Restrictions on abortions are there to protect the baby and the mother.

Some might. Some might not.

Parental notification,

Can get a girl beaten or worse.

counseling,

May not be needed. It shouldn't be up to the state to mandate it. If I've already talked to my pastor or family or whoever, why should I have to listen to anything else. No one listens to advice they don't want anyway.

all options and information provided to the mother.

It's all about how it's packaged. Anything can be propaganda and there doesn't seem to be anyone that wants to be involved in this issue that doesn't have an agenda. How satisfied would you be if the information provided slanted toward pro-abortion ideas? Not very, I'd imagine.

How are these meddling?

LOL. I know a girl back home that lost her baby at 15 because of the beating she got at home when she told her parents she was pregnant. If parental notification is mandatory young girls won't go to clinics to get any info or services they will try to do things themselves.

Shouldn't someone who is contemplating aborting their child be given all facts and information and options?

Sure. Maybe you should look into Planned Parenthood, they do that "info" thing. I've been there and they weren't pro-abortion at all in how they talked to me. And no, I just went to find out more about them and to see about volunteering.

If you had a daughter and she was under age 18 and got pregnant wouldn't you want to be notified? Or would you prefer she go off and have an abortion without your knowledge?

Of course I would prefer to know. But if it came down to me knowing or her trying to lose the baby on her own, I'd prefer she went to a clinic that didn't inform me.

I am in no way passing judgement on anyone who has had an abortion. I have friends who've had them. I am just saying that abortion is the killing of an unborn child and anyone who chooses to believe the 'it's my body' line is doing so to ease their conscience. No offense to anyone who's gone through this. If someone is going to have an abortion at least own up to the fact that in order for you to 'get on with your life' you destroy a human being in the process.

Sounds like a guilt trip to me. I know a coupe girls that have had them and they are more torn about it than you can probably imagine. I think that and God's own judgement is enough, I don't have to add to their burden.