Fatal Flaws of Keynesian Economics

[Wiseacre]

The thing about the stimulus bill was that it was sold as a job creator, shovel ready projects we would fund to improve our infrastructure. But as the president himself pointed out, those jobs weren't as shovel-ready as they thought. So the question is whether they miscalculated, or did they know all along it wasn't going to be as successful as they made it out to be.

So now it's the same song, second verse. They (dems) say we need to pass a jobs bill to improve our infrastructure, but why should we believe this time will be any different? Mismanagement, political favors, poor implementation and execution, why should we think this time it'll work? What if it's just another temporary money drain, at hundreds of thousands of dollars per job that disappear once the projects are over? A year from now UE drops right back down and we're right back to where we are now except we owe an additional trillion bucks of debt.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

 

[Truthseeker420]

The thing about the stimulus bill was that it was sold as a job creator, shovel ready projects we would fund to improve our infrastructure. But as the president himself pointed out, those jobs weren't as shovel-ready as they thought. So the question is whether they miscalculated, or did they know all along it wasn't going to be as successful as they made it out to be.

So now it's the same song, second verse. They (dems) say we need to pass a jobs bill to improve our infrastructure, but why should we believe this time will be any different? Mismanagement, political favors, poor implementation and execution, why should we think this time it'll work? What if it's just another temporary money drain, at hundreds of thousands of dollars per job that disappear once the projects are over? A year from now UE drops right back down and we're right back to where we are now except we owe an additional trillion bucks of debt.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

CBO says the stimulus created around 3 million jobs.

 

[Leweman]

we did not go into a depression did we?


we in fact ended the recession.

Now the republicans are doing all they can to try and push this country into a double dip so they can keep their jobs.


Party over country at every turn

If the stimulus prevented a depression then the Bush tax cuts prevented nuclear war. I get to make up my own standards too. Theres no nuclear war right? Cause of the Bush tax cuts. So why don't liberals all support the Bush tax cuts? It prevented nuclear war for God's sake. Damn TM you are on to somethin here ... making up stuff is fun.

 

[asterism]

The thing about the stimulus bill was that it was sold as a job creator, shovel ready projects we would fund to improve our infrastructure. But as the president himself pointed out, those jobs weren't as shovel-ready as they thought. So the question is whether they miscalculated, or did they know all along it wasn't going to be as successful as they made it out to be.

So now it's the same song, second verse. They (dems) say we need to pass a jobs bill to improve our infrastructure, but why should we believe this time will be any different? Mismanagement, political favors, poor implementation and execution, why should we think this time it'll work? What if it's just another temporary money drain, at hundreds of thousands of dollars per job that disappear once the projects are over? A year from now UE drops right back down and we're right back to where we are now except we owe an additional trillion bucks of debt.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

CBO says the stimulus created around 3 million jobs.

It actually says that it created or saved that amount. What it doesn't say is that the metrics used to measure the impact were based on government departmental guesses and speculation. It also was not the stated goal of the Stimulus, which was to keep unemployment under 8%.

Regardless, 11% unemployment (assuming those 3 million jobs would have disappeared) would not be a depression. It would have been a much more severe recession, but is that worth almost $300K per job? At that rate we can end unemployment if we just found another $4 Trillion. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

 

[Truthseeker420]

we did not go into a depression did we?


we in fact ended the recession.

Now the republicans are doing all they can to try and push this country into a double dip so they can keep their jobs.


Party over country at every turn

If the stimulus prevented a depression then the Bush tax cuts prevented nuclear war. I get to make up my own standards too. Theres no nuclear war right? Cause of the Bush tax cuts. So why don't liberals all support the Bush tax cuts? It prevented nuclear war for God's sake. Damn TM you are on to somethin here ... making up stuff is fun.

George Bush on how tax cuts have saved us all from economic disaster


Read more: George Bush on how tax cuts have saved us all from economic disaster - The Curious Capitalist - TIME.com

 

[Truthseeker420]

The thing about the stimulus bill was that it was sold as a job creator, shovel ready projects we would fund to improve our infrastructure. But as the president himself pointed out, those jobs weren't as shovel-ready as they thought. So the question is whether they miscalculated, or did they know all along it wasn't going to be as successful as they made it out to be.

So now it's the same song, second verse. They (dems) say we need to pass a jobs bill to improve our infrastructure, but why should we believe this time will be any different? Mismanagement, political favors, poor implementation and execution, why should we think this time it'll work? What if it's just another temporary money drain, at hundreds of thousands of dollars per job that disappear once the projects are over? A year from now UE drops right back down and we're right back to where we are now except we owe an additional trillion bucks of debt.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

CBO says the stimulus created around 3 million jobs.

It actually says that it created or saved that amount. What it doesn't say is that the metrics used to measure the impact were based on government departmental guesses and speculation. It also was not the stated goal of the Stimulus, which was to keep unemployment under 8%.

Regardless, 11% unemployment (assuming those 3 million jobs would have disappeared) would not be a depression. It would have been a much more severe recession, but is that worth almost $300K per job? At that rate we can end unemployment if we just found another $4 Trillion. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Your not just buying jobs , we are getting better roads,bridges, rail systems and other improvments in America.Plus at least a third of the stimulus was tax cuts.

 

[Leweman]

we did not go into a depression did we?


we in fact ended the recession.

Now the republicans are doing all they can to try and push this country into a double dip so they can keep their jobs.


Party over country at every turn

If the stimulus prevented a depression then the Bush tax cuts prevented nuclear war. I get to make up my own standards too. Theres no nuclear war right? Cause of the Bush tax cuts. So why don't liberals all support the Bush tax cuts? It prevented nuclear war for God's sake. Damn TM you are on to somethin here ... making up stuff is fun.

George Bush on how tax cuts have saved us all from economic disaster


Read more: George Bush on how tax cuts have saved us all from economic disaster - The Curious Capitalist - TIME.com

Thats a good point. Tax revenues went down right after the Bush tax cuts for two years until they increased again year by year from 2004 until 2008. Then the revenues really took a shit. Its like everything was controlled by Democrats or somethin.

 

[asterism]

CBO says the stimulus created around 3 million jobs.

It actually says that it created or saved that amount. What it doesn't say is that the metrics used to measure the impact were based on government departmental guesses and speculation. It also was not the stated goal of the Stimulus, which was to keep unemployment under 8%.

Regardless, 11% unemployment (assuming those 3 million jobs would have disappeared) would not be a depression. It would have been a much more severe recession, but is that worth almost $300K per job? At that rate we can end unemployment if we just found another $4 Trillion. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Your not just buying jobs , we are getting better roads,bridges, rail systems and other improvments in America.Plus at least a third of the stimulus was tax cuts.

Except that's not what happened, hence the new push now for infrastructure spending. Also, 1/3 was not tax cuts. It was sold that way but those tax cuts did not materialize. The restrictions were too narrow and virtually no businesses jumped through the hoops required to realize them. If you disagree, please post some data.

 

[Truthseeker420]

It actually says that it created or saved that amount. What it doesn't say is that the metrics used to measure the impact were based on government departmental guesses and speculation. It also was not the stated goal of the Stimulus, which was to keep unemployment under 8%.

Regardless, 11% unemployment (assuming those 3 million jobs would have disappeared) would not be a depression. It would have been a much more severe recession, but is that worth almost $300K per job? At that rate we can end unemployment if we just found another $4 Trillion. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Your not just buying jobs , we are getting better roads,bridges, rail systems and other improvments in America.Plus at least a third of the stimulus was tax cuts.

Except that's not what happened, hence the new push now for infrastructure spending. Also, 1/3 was not tax cuts. It was sold that way but those tax cuts did not materialize. The restrictions were too narrow and virtually no businesses jumped through the hoops required to realize them. If you disagree, please post some data.

I agree the stimulus wasn't big enough but is that the aurgument conservatives are making? cry about Obama spending money then cry about the stimulus wasn't big enough. wtf?

 

[Oddball]

^^^^^^
There you have it....The total unfalsifiability of Keynesian voodoo.

If things get better after throwing some vestal virgins in the volcano as a "stimulus", that's proof it worked....If it doesn't work, that's proof that you didn't throw enough of them into the maw of Kilauea to appease Pele soon enough.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that Paul Krugman and Baghdad Ben Bernanke carry decks of Tarot cards around in their briefcases.

 

[boedicca]

But for the Stimulus aliens from Zeti Retuculi would have invaded.

But for the Stimulus a plague of locusts would have wiped out all the soybeans

But for the Stimulus we would slide into another FDR Depression.

But for the Stimulus, 139,334,000 Employed People's jobs wouldn't have been SAVED!

 

[rdean]

It's now clear that the federal government's massive stimulus spending has not achieved its objectives. Why hasn't it? It's important that we have answers to that question.

The stimulus was premised on the economic model known as Keynesianism: the intellectual legacy of the late English economist John Maynard Keynes. Keynesianism doesn't work, never has worked, and never will work. Without a clear understanding of why Keynesianism cannot work we will be forever doomed to pursuing the impossible.

There's no real mystery about why Keynesianism fails. There are numerous reasons why and they've been known for decades. Keynesians have an unrealistic and unsupportable view of how the economy works and how people make decisions.

The American Spectator : Fatal Flaws of Keynesian Economics

Too much of the stimulus was "tax cuts". One of only two failed ideas Republicans hang on to like a dog with an old bone.

Oops.

 

[boedicca]

The thing about the stimulus bill was that it was sold as a job creator, shovel ready projects we would fund to improve our infrastructure. But as the president himself pointed out, those jobs weren't as shovel-ready as they thought. So the question is whether they miscalculated, or did they know all along it wasn't going to be as successful as they made it out to be.

So now it's the same song, second verse. They (dems) say we need to pass a jobs bill to improve our infrastructure, but why should we believe this time will be any different? Mismanagement, political favors, poor implementation and execution, why should we think this time it'll work? What if it's just another temporary money drain, at hundreds of thousands of dollars per job that disappear once the projects are over? A year from now UE drops right back down and we're right back to where we are now except we owe an additional trillion bucks of debt.

Sorry, I ain't buying it. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.

CBO says the stimulus created around 3 million jobs.

We've dealt with the topic of CBO scoring ad nauseum in other threads. They only score the assumptions they are given.

The real BLS stats show that nearly 2.4M less people are employed than when the Stimulus bill was passed...while the civilian population grew. We have a declining labor force participation rate...the only reason official unemployment is not 11.4% is because 3M+ people have given up looking for work because there are no jobs.

The Stimulus was an Epic Fail.

 

[boedicca]

It's now clear that the federal government's massive stimulus spending has not achieved its objectives. Why hasn't it? It's important that we have answers to that question.

The stimulus was premised on the economic model known as Keynesianism: the intellectual legacy of the late English economist John Maynard Keynes. Keynesianism doesn't work, never has worked, and never will work. Without a clear understanding of why Keynesianism cannot work we will be forever doomed to pursuing the impossible.

There's no real mystery about why Keynesianism fails. There are numerous reasons why and they've been known for decades. Keynesians have an unrealistic and unsupportable view of how the economy works and how people make decisions.

The American Spectator : Fatal Flaws of Keynesian Economics

Too much of the stimulus was "tax cuts". One of only two failed ideas Republicans hang on to like a dog with an old bone.

Oops.

They weren't meaningful long term tax cuts upon which businesses can make investment decisions. They were short term gimmicks and credits. Nobody changes their behavior over short term tax changes. At the consumer level, the value of the credits has been eaten up by food and energy inflation, so the TEMPORARY tax breaks haven't been at all useful for stimulating demand.

 

[Wiseacre]

This claim about "jobs saved" is a bunch of hooey, creating 3 million jobs but losing 5 and a half milion for a net loss of 2.5 million is nothing to brag about. Saying it's a little disingenuous is the kindest way to put it. Some might use stronger terms.