Fatah And Hamas Terrorist To Sign Peace deal

[Jroc]

I guess there is nobody to negotiate with now right? We don't negotiate with terrorist..I least I hope Obama is not going to change that policy.

Fatah, Hamas end feud, agree to interim government

(Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah group inked a deal on Wednesday with bitter rival Hamas to end their long-running feud and form an interim government ahead of elections within a year.

Israel said the accord, which was brokered in secrecy by Egypt, would not secure peace in the Middle East and urged Abbas to carry on shunning the Islamist movement, which has governed the Gaza Strip since 2007 after ousting Fatah in a civil war.

Forging Palestinian unity is regarded as crucial to reviving any prospect for an independent Palestinian state, but Western powers have always refused to deal with Hamas because of its refusal to recognize Israel and renounce violence.

"We have agreed to form a government composed of independent figures that would start preparing for presidential and parliamentary elections," said Azzam al-Ahmad, the head of Fatah's negotiating team in Cairo.

"Elections would be held in about eight months from now," he said, adding the Arab League would oversee the implementation of the agreement.

In the West Bank city of Ramallah, Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdainah said the reconciliation was not Israel's concern.

"Netanyahu must choose between a just peace with the united Palestinian people ... and settlements," Abu Rdaineh said.

At news conference in Cairo, where the Fatah and Hamas leaders sat side by side, Ahmad said Palestinians had paid a heavy price for their infighting.

"We are proud that we now possess the national will to end our divisions so we can end the occupation of Palestine ... the last occupation in history."

Hamas' deputy leader, Moussa Abu Marzouk, added: "Our rift gave the occupation a chance. Today we turn a new page."

Hamas won the last Palestinian legislative elections held in 2006 and a new ballot is months overdue. Israel is worried such a vote could hand Hamas control of the occupied West Bank, which is run by Abbas and his more secular supporters.

"The Palestinian Authority must choose either peace with Israel or peace with Hamas. There is no possibility for peace with both," Netanyahu said in a televised statement.

The White House said Hamas was "a terrorist organization" and added that any Palestinian government would have to renounce violence. A U.S. official said it would also have to respect past peace deals and recognize Israel's right to exist.

Both Hamas and Fatah, however, dismissed Netanyahu's ultimatum. "Abu Mazen (Abbas) has said we want Hamas, Hamas is part of the Palestinian national fabric," Fatah's Ahmad said.

Hamas spokesman Taher al-Noono also said Israel was "not concerned with Palestinian reconciliation and has been an impediment to it in the past."

MIDDLE EAST TURMOIL

The surprise accord came against the backdrop of tumult across the Middle East and followed the ousting in February of Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak, who was a close ally of the United States and had no patience for Hamas.

Fatah, Hamas end feud, agree to interim government | Reuters

 

[Jos]

Sometimes "Terrorists" change?

Irgun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Haganah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lehi (group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[alexa]

Well I think it's like poker at the moment. The US went against it's rhetoric in voting against the UN condemnation of Israel's settlement building and in that in reality ended any possibility of peace through the established route since Oslo but it was known before that the settlements and the 'matrix of control' for Israel had already made the possibility of a two state solution non viable.

Palestinians have decided to declare their own state in September. In order to be economically viable they need Gaza and they need access to Gaza. That requires Hamas and Fatah to reconcile. This was given added support by peaceful protesters demanding unity . There are other political voices than just Hamas and Fatah and it should not be assumed that either Hamas or Fatah will get an overall majority in the forthcoming elections.

Then in September Palestine is to declare itself a State. What then? I hear possibly Israel will unsurprisingly annex the settlements. What then...


What will happen? Abbas has said categorically there will not be war - but he did say that was because they had no military.

If the Palestinians are sensible and get it together peacefully...what then? Nato in to protect the Palestinians perhaps?

It is a very fluid situation.

Netanyahu fell into the Palestinians' diplomatic trap - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[Jroc]

Well I think it's like poker at the moment. The US went against it's rhetoric in voting against the UN condemnation of Israel's settlement building and in that in reality ended any possibility of peace through the established route since Oslo but it was known before that the settlements and the 'matrix of control' for Israel had already made the possibility of a two state solution non viable.

Palestinians have decided to declare their own state in September. In order to be economically viable they need Gaza and they need access to Gaza. That requires Hamas and Fatah to reconcile. This was given added support by peaceful protesters demanding unity . There are other political voices than just Hamas and Fatah and it should not be assumed that either Hamas or Fatah will get an overall majority in the forthcoming elections.

Then in September Palestine is to declare itself a State. What then? I hear possibly Israel will unsurprisingly annex the settlements. What then...


What will happen? Abbas has said categorically there will not be war - but he did say that was because they had no military.

If the Palestinians are sensible and get it together peacefully...what then? Nato in to protect the Palestinians perhaps?

It is a very fluid situation.

Netanyahu fell into the Palestinians' diplomatic trap - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

There is no what then? Doesn’t matter what anybody declares there is no way Israel would accept any of that crap, no way they go back to the '67' boarders, they can’t even get the Arabs in the territories to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, so there is nothing left to talk about.

 

[alexa]

Well I think it's like poker at the moment. The US went against it's rhetoric in voting against the UN condemnation of Israel's settlement building and in that in reality ended any possibility of peace through the established route since Oslo but it was known before that the settlements and the 'matrix of control' for Israel had already made the possibility of a two state solution non viable.

Palestinians have decided to declare their own state in September. In order to be economically viable they need Gaza and they need access to Gaza. That requires Hamas and Fatah to reconcile. This was given added support by peaceful protesters demanding unity . There are other political voices than just Hamas and Fatah and it should not be assumed that either Hamas or Fatah will get an overall majority in the forthcoming elections.

Then in September Palestine is to declare itself a State. What then? I hear possibly Israel will unsurprisingly annex the settlements. What then...


What will happen? Abbas has said categorically there will not be war - but he did say that was because they had no military.

If the Palestinians are sensible and get it together peacefully...what then? Nato in to protect the Palestinians perhaps?

It is a very fluid situation.

Netanyahu fell into the Palestinians' diplomatic trap - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

There is no what then? Doesn’t matter what anybody declares there is no way Israel would accept any of that crap, no way they go back to the '67' boarders, they can’t even get the Arabs in the territories to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, so there is nothing left to talk about.

The world is changing. You seem to have an extremist view that Israel has the right to subjugate the Palestinians into little bantustans.

Palestinians currently lack basic human rights so I would get off any high horse you have put yourself on to support the illegal stealing of land and resources and the gross lack of human rights which Israel is deploying against the Palestinian people while it is stealing their land in this illegal occupation

Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch

Old slogans do not work with new realities. I was unsure whether to put this post here or in the thread I put it in because they overlap but consider it part of my answer.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...y-deal-with-guarded-optimism.html#post3582589

Edit:

Israel will have a choice of '67 boundaries or a one state solution with equal human rights and citizenship for all. The choice she has been making till now by her actions is the one state solution. The Palestinians are for the time being still going with the two state resolution.

 

[Jroc]

Well I think it's like poker at the moment. The US went against it's rhetoric in voting against the UN condemnation of Israel's settlement building and in that in reality ended any possibility of peace through the established route since Oslo but it was known before that the settlements and the 'matrix of control' for Israel had already made the possibility of a two state solution non viable.

Palestinians have decided to declare their own state in September. In order to be economically viable they need Gaza and they need access to Gaza. That requires Hamas and Fatah to reconcile. This was given added support by peaceful protesters demanding unity . There are other political voices than just Hamas and Fatah and it should not be assumed that either Hamas or Fatah will get an overall majority in the forthcoming elections.

Then in September Palestine is to declare itself a State. What then? I hear possibly Israel will unsurprisingly annex the settlements. What then...


What will happen? Abbas has said categorically there will not be war - but he did say that was because they had no military.

If the Palestinians are sensible and get it together peacefully...what then? Nato in to protect the Palestinians perhaps?

It is a very fluid situation.

Netanyahu fell into the Palestinians' diplomatic trap - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

There is no what then? Doesn’t matter what anybody declares there is no way Israel would accept any of that crap, no way they go back to the '67' boarders, they can’t even get the Arabs in the territories to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, so there is nothing left to talk about.

The world is changing. You seem to have an extremist view that Israel has the right to subjugate the Palestinians into little bantustans.

Palestinians currently lack basic human rights so I would get off any high horse you have put yourself on to support the illegal stealing of land and resources and the gross lack of human rights which Israel is deploying against the Palestinian people while it is stealing their land in this illegal occupation

Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch

Old slogans do not work with new realities. I was unsure whether to put this post here or in the thread I put it in because they overlap but consider it part of my answer.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...y-deal-with-guarded-optimism.html#post3582589

Edit:

Israel will have a choice of '67 boundaries or a one state solution with equal human rights and citizenship for all. The choice she has been making till now by her actions is the one state solution. The Palestinians are for the time being still going with the two state resolution.

Yeah...Ok.....I never said there couldn't be a two state solution I said the '67' boaders are out. I also said the Arabs would have to accept a Jewish state which they have failed to do. Oh...and don't waste my time with links to "Human Rights Watch".

 

[alexa]

There is no what then? Doesn’t matter what anybody declares there is no way Israel would accept any of that crap, no way they go back to the '67' boarders, they can’t even get the Arabs in the territories to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, so there is nothing left to talk about.

The world is changing. You seem to have an extremist view that Israel has the right to subjugate the Palestinians into little bantustans.

Palestinians currently lack basic human rights so I would get off any high horse you have put yourself on to support the illegal stealing of land and resources and the gross lack of human rights which Israel is deploying against the Palestinian people while it is stealing their land in this illegal occupation

Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch

Old slogans do not work with new realities. I was unsure whether to put this post here or in the thread I put it in because they overlap but consider it part of my answer.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...y-deal-with-guarded-optimism.html#post3582589

Edit:

Israel will have a choice of '67 boundaries or a one state solution with equal human rights and citizenship for all. The choice she has been making till now by her actions is the one state solution. The Palestinians are for the time being still going with the two state resolution.

Yeah...Ok.....I never said there couldn't be a two state solution I said the '67' boaders are out.

The current set up does not present the possibility for a viable Palestinian State. What is required is for Israel to start dismantling the settlements so that Palestine can have from the Green Line. However there is a possibility that settlers who have not harmed Palestinians could stay provided they accepted Palestinian Citizenship. This would probably mean all the religious nationalist would need to be against their will rehoused but they should never have been allowed there in the first instance. Those who were unable to resist the subsidised housing and who have no history of violent or hostile behaviour possibly could stay if that was there wish. I think that might be a possible compromise.

Otherwise it is going to be a one state solution and in case you don't know that is the very last thing Israel wants.

I also said the Arabs would have to accept a Jewish state which they have failed to do.

They have accepted Israel. Hamas has not but the PLO did decades ago. Too much is made about Hamas not accepting Israel.

Hamas is determined that Palestinian recognition of Israel will not come about without Israel’s recognition of Palestinian national rights, and that only an end to the occupation and Israel’s acceptance of the principle that no changes in the pre-1967 borders can occur without Palestinian agreement (a principle enshrined in the road map that Israel pretends to have accepted) will constitute such recognition.

The issue is not whether Hamas recognises Israel - Council on Foreign Relations

Israel is not only Jewish so I do not see why it should be only a Jewish state. That puts non Jews at a disadvantage. It needs to be a State for all its citizens.

Oh...and don't waste my time with links to "Human Rights Watch".

Ah! Does this go with the desire for a Jewish only State. Not interested in Human Rights. It is a detailed report. You should read it. You cannot argue what you refuse to see.

 

[Jroc]

The current set up does not present the possibility for a viable Palestinian State. What is required is for Israel to start dismantling the settlements so that Palestine can have from the Green Line. However there is a possibility that settlers who have not harmed Palestinians could stay provided they accepted Palestinian Citizenship. This would probably mean all the religious nationalist would need to be against their will rehoused but they should never have been allowed there in the first instance. Those who were unable to resist the subsidised housing and who have no history of violent or hostile behaviour possibly could stay if that was there wish. I think that might be a possible compromise.

Otherwise it is going to be a one state solution and in case you don't know that is the very last thing Israel wants.

They have accepted Israel. Hamas has not but the PLO did decades ago. Too much is made about Hamas not accepting Israel.

Hamas is determined that Palestinian recognition of Israel will not come about without Israel’s recognition of Palestinian national rights, and that only an end to the occupation and Israel’s acceptance of the principle that no changes in the pre-1967 borders can occur without Palestinian agreement (a principle enshrined in the road map that Israel pretends to have accepted) will constitute such recognition.

The issue is not whether Hamas recognises Israel - Council on Foreign Relations

Israel is not only Jewish so I do not see why it should be only a Jewish state. That puts non Jews at a disadvantage. It needs to be a State for all its citizens.

Oh...and don't waste my time with links to "Human Rights Watch".

Ah! Does this go with the desire for a Jewish only State. Not interested in Human Rights. It is a detailed report. You should read it. You cannot argue what you refuse to see.

Blah...Blah...blah..What Israel has to do...What the Jews have to do..So what do the Arabs have to do again? Israel was founded as a Jewish state and until it is recognized as such there is no need to talk. That doesn't mean non Jewish Israelis are any less citizens then Jews, Can the Arabs say the same? Any future Arab state in the territories will be demilitarized and determined by the security needs of Israel get over it..Oh and why don't you look and see what "Human Rights Watch" has to say about The U.S. Arizona ECT..Like I said don't waste my time

 

[alexa]

The current set up does not present the possibility for a viable Palestinian State. What is required is for Israel to start dismantling the settlements so that Palestine can have from the Green Line. However there is a possibility that settlers who have not harmed Palestinians could stay provided they accepted Palestinian Citizenship. This would probably mean all the religious nationalist would need to be against their will rehoused but they should never have been allowed there in the first instance. Those who were unable to resist the subsidised housing and who have no history of violent or hostile behaviour possibly could stay if that was there wish. I think that might be a possible compromise.

Otherwise it is going to be a one state solution and in case you don't know that is the very last thing Israel wants.

They have accepted Israel. Hamas has not but the PLO did decades ago. Too much is made about Hamas not accepting Israel.

Hamas is determined that Palestinian recognition of Israel will not come about without Israel’s recognition of Palestinian national rights, and that only an end to the occupation and Israel’s acceptance of the principle that no changes in the pre-1967 borders can occur without Palestinian agreement (a principle enshrined in the road map that Israel pretends to have accepted) will constitute such recognition.

The issue is not whether Hamas recognises Israel - Council on Foreign Relations

Israel is not only Jewish so I do not see why it should be only a Jewish state. That puts non Jews at a disadvantage. It needs to be a State for all its citizens.

Oh...and don't waste my time with links to "Human Rights Watch".

Ah! Does this go with the desire for a Jewish only State. Not interested in Human Rights. It is a detailed report. You should read it. You cannot argue what you refuse to see.

Blah...Blah...blah..

What a lack of argument

What Israel has to do...What the Jews have to do..

No, it isn't to do with Jews. Jews are the most forefront criticisers of Israel. Zionism went against Judaism and was not supported by most religious Jews until after the Holocaust. Not Jews, not Judaism. Israel policy.

So what do the Arabs have to do again?

First lets be clear who we are talking about. We are not talking about all Arabs here, we are talking about Arabs of Palestinian heritage or rather the descendants of the original Jews.

Raelianews: New studies show that Jews and Palestinians are both descendants of the ancient Jewish people

They deserve the same as the population of Israel. The right to self determination and to be treated as human beings with dignity and human rights.

Israel was founded as a Jewish state and until it is recognized as such there is no need to talk.

Pretty new demand this. Israel does not believe in being a state for all it's citizens?

That doesn't mean non Jewish Israelis are any less citizens then Jews,

You don't seem to have much knowledge on the situation. Here are some examples

Israel redefined Israel Palestinians as a fifth column. Demonstrations in support of Palestinians during the first Intefada in cities like Nazareth resulted in Israel useing this to redefine Arab citizens in the eyes of it's Jewish citizens. She sent the army in with rubber bullets and live bullets to peaceful demonstrators and killed 13. Israeli's wrongfully imagined the Palestinians as no longer loyal citizens even though they had created no problem for 50 years. Israeli Jews stopped visiting Nazareth for instance. They started seeing it as occupied territory.

Nationalisation of 93% of the land which can be leased only to Jews.
Uri Avnery has described the Supreme Court as the last bastion of democracy in Israel but land is a fundamental tenet of Zionism and the courts do not dare contest this issue because to do so would be to contest the Zionist state. But heck lets not just have it so that Arab citizens of Israel cannot get land to build on so need to build on top of their parents without building regulations so get their property destroyed

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPHtPNX7IAI&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Other Voices from Israel and Palestine[/ame]

lets make it so that Arab citizens of Israel cannot even rent

Safed rabbi boasts that anti-Arab edict worked - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Palestinians have no control over their own land or planning or communities. They are forced to build illegally because it is almost impossible to get building permit if you are a Palestinian citizen of Israel. Planning committees are Jewish and usually turns Arabs down. Because of this Arab citizens become criminalised. People get married, need a home but no Arab communities have been built since 1948. There are 123 Arab communities on same land. They cannot as a young professional couple buy themselves a house in a new neighbourhood where they might be able to create networks of community, organisation, sense of community new ideas of how to live not possible. So, build on top of their parents home. This makes parents home illegal too. They live next to your parents, people find themselves restricted in their freedom to change. People are still living the way they were 40 or 50 years ago because there is no way people can reinvent themselves and break away from the restrictions they have known all their lives. Society is stagnant.


There is democracy in Israel but it is limited as far as Palestinian citizens, both Christian and Muslim are concerned.

There is discrimination on all levels. For instance
Education. State education one for Jews one for Arabs. Much less money allocated to Arab citizens education. Arab education run by Jewish officials. Arabs have no control over their own educational citizen. If you want to be a teacher and security officials Shin Bet do not like you, your family, political views, you cannot be one. If for instance in a class a child asks what the PLO is and the teacher answers, the teacher is sacked. Seems there are even spys among the school children.

Employment. Jews had a tradition of employing Jews, Hebrew Labour. And then we have the issue of so many jobs not being accessible unless one has done military service. Anything related to security and that seems to be able to stem a long way including the police and even textile factories and engineering.

There is prejudice against taking on Arab citizens. Those who find work find it occasionally in service industries, or very low paid, labouring, in meat processing, building sites. Casual low paid labour. There are high unemployment rates.

No professional class among Arabs. Palestinians cannot for instance be engineers as such jobs are seen as security.

There is only one Arabic University. Before that Israel used to give grants to people to study abroad knowing there was a good chance they would meet someone, marry and never return.

Then there is

Legalized Inequality

As citizens, they're denied equality and freedom in a Jewish state. Over 30 laws directly or indirectly discriminate besides new ones at various stages in the legislative process.

Citizenship

It affords no equality, granting it solely to Jews, and under a new law, it may be lost for reasons alleging "disloyalty" or "breach of trust."

-snip-

Political Participation

Arabs have unequal access to all areas of public life and decision-making, including the legislature, judiciary, and civil service. Moreover, Israel's Attorney General and extremist MKs tried to disqualify Arab parties from political participation, and overall limit their political voices.

In addition, legislation targets free movement and speech, including attempts to restrict political travel to Arab nations called "enemy states." Further, police routinely use force to arrest Palestinian demonstrators to silence dissent.

"Years of deliberate discrimination, unequal citizenship and a limited voice in the political system have left Palestinian citizens" feeling vulnerable, marginalized, insecure and distrustful of state authority, exacerbated by being considered a "fifth column."

Framework of Legalized Inequality

Israel's Basic Laws afford rights solely to Jews. Arabs clearly aren't wanted so aren't treated equally under the law. As a result, institutionalized discrimination harms them in all aspects of daily life, including citizenship and family unification rights, forcing them to live apart or insecure under threat of separation.

Institutionalized Arab Inequality in Israel | Philadelphia Independent Media Center

Actually I could have saved myself a lot of writing. Just read that article and come back and tell me that Arab citizens of Israel have the same rights as Jews.

Edit; Most of the information here came from - Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State, Jonathan Cook

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vtc5RF5Z7I&feature=related]YouTube - 13 b Film made by Ashira in episode 13, uploaded at request of viewers.mpg[/ame]

 

[Jroc]

First lets be clear who we are talking about. We are not talking about all Arabs here, we are talking about Arabs of Palestinian heritage or rather the descendants of the original Jews.

Raelianews: New studies show that Jews and Palestinians are both descendants of the ancient Jewish people

I hate all these long ass posts so I'll leave it short and sweet for you. Of course there are genetic similarities between Jews and Arabs from the same region, I've posted that myself many times. What exactly does that mean? Arab muslims in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon are the same people and have similar genetics to Jews, but Jews are Jews because they stayed Jews, They died because they were Jews, they were killed by the 10s of millions because they stayed Jewish, so those people are not the same people, and they have those countries I mentioned already why do they need more? Maybe you should worry about how these so-called "Palestinians" are treated by their Arab muslim brothers before condemning Israel were they are treated much better. All this has been covered here many times, maybe you should read through some of the posts here, You have nothing new to offer but be my guest if you want.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeAVBYAbn0&feature=related]YouTube - Hamas Spokesmen calls for genocide of all Jews[/ame]

 

[docmauser1]

Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State, Jonathan Cook

Kook's having an occupation.

 

[alexa]

I hate all these long ass posts

You claimed

That doesn't mean non Jewish Israelis are any less citizens then Jews,

I took time to show that was not so. Please keep to what is being discussed.

 

[alexa]

Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State, Jonathan Cook

Kook's having an occupation.

Unlike most International Reporters who live in cities like Tel Aviv, Jonathan Cook chose to live in the Palestinian city of Nazareth. This has allowed him to see the life situation of Palestinian or Arab citizens of Israel at first hand rather than through official spin. He knows what he is talking about.

If you believe that Arab citizens of Israel are 'under occupation' rather than full citizens of Israel you would probably be right, though that goes in direct opposition to what Jroc claimed.

 

[docmauser1]

Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State, Jonathan Cook

Kook's having an occupation.

Unlike most International Reporters who live in cities like Tel Aviv, Jonathan Cook chose to live in the Palestinian city of Nazareth.

But, there's no palestinian city of Nazareth.

This has allowed him to see the life situation of Palestinian or Arab citizens of Israel at first hand rather than through official spin. He knows what he is talking about.

Kook's a pathetic judophobe, of course. And the fact that he hasn't, yet, been tarred and feathered, or, at least, deported to Syria, is a tribute to israeli tolerance. Funny, he didn't choose Gaza. Not much occupational amenities to get occupational about, no doubt.

If you believe that Arab citizens of Israel are 'under occupation' rather than full citizens of Israel you would probably be right, though that goes in direct opposition to what Jroc claimed.

Those occupational arabs should be freed to the free palistan, of course.

 

[editec]

Interesting development.

Probably not good for the Israeli cause.

 

[alexa]

Kook's having an occupation.

Unlike most International Reporters who live in cities like Tel Aviv, Jonathan Cook chose to live in the Palestinian city of Nazareth.

But, there's no palestinian city of Nazareth.

You know perfectly well what I was meaning . Nazareth has the largest concentration of Palestine or Arab citizens of Israel

Nazareth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Kook's a pathetic judophobe, of course. And the fact that he hasn't, yet, been tarred and feathered, or, at least, deported to Syria, is a tribute to israeli tolerance. Funny, he didn't choose Gaza. Not much occupational amenities to get occupational about, no doubt.

I have yet to see you write anything of purpose. First answer trying to be clever over a known technical mistake, second answer using the antisemetism tactic. I have to imagine the reality is you have no answers and are pretty bored in your life so spend your time here trolling.

What Jonathon Cook writes is the truth. You can find it at other places. I already provided a link to one. As for where he chose to live. Hist interest was in finding out what life was like for the Palestinians/Arab citizens of Israel.

If you believe that Arab citizens of Israel are 'under occupation' rather than full citizens of Israel you would probably be right, though that goes in direct opposition to what Jroc claimed.

Those occupational arabs should be freed to the free palistan, of course.

More kindergarten trolling. Your extremism though is noted.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Oh, Alexa. A brave try, but you should know that if you start using too many words they begin to ignore you, because there is no way to change their minds.

The basic fact is this, for the rabid and brainwashed Israeli ultra-nationalists and their supporters: Unless Palestinians allow Israel total control of all the settlements, allow Israeli total control over Israeli-only highways criss-crossing the West Bank, Israeli-controlled water resources, Israeli-controlled fertile areas, Israeli control over the Jordan River, Israeli control over any other "key" natural resource or strategic point in the West Bank, Israeli control over the air space over both Gaza and the West Bank, Israeli control over the coast of Gaza, and Israeli control over all of Jerusalem, AS WELL AS: have no army, renounce control over Palestinian border crossings, allowing Israel any space they deem necessary for a military base and prostrating themselves under the Israeli flag while pledge their undying allegiance to the idea of Israel as a uniquely Jewish state where Arabs can at best be second-class citizens, UNLESS all these conditions are met, then Palestinians can pretty much say forget about having a state.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "But wait... no control over air space, sea lanes, water resources, natural resources, their capital, their borders, AND criss-crossed into pieces by foreign-occupied corridors... that doesn't sound like a state to me..." But hey, actually, it's very much a state, just a... a different kind of state. The kind of state appropriate to maintain Israel's security, which is basically... almost like not having a state, and remarkably like the reality on the ground for the past few, er, DECADES, but hey, once they do all this, we can officially call it a state. You see? It's all good! Everybody wins! Israelis give up the horrible, terrible concession of having to call their occupied territories a state, and Palestinians can call their little carved up neighborhoods a state. And that's after all, what this is all about. Basically, finding a way to call the occupied territories a "State" without actually BEING a state, because a State of Palestine would apparently endanger Israel's security unless... it was actually NOT a state. See?! It's great!

 

[Jroc]

The Jews in Israel want to live that would not include another armed arab state on indefensible boarders sorry...It won’t happen because it cannot happen. The Jews will do what they must to survive, No more laying down waiting to be slaughtered.

 

[alexa]

Oh, Alexa. A brave try, but you should know that if you start using too many words they begin to ignore you, because there is no way to change their minds.

The basic fact is this, for the rabid and brainwashed Israeli ultra-nationalists and their supporters: Unless Palestinians allow Israel total control of all the settlements, allow Israeli total control over Israeli-only highways criss-crossing the West Bank, Israeli-controlled water resources, Israeli-controlled fertile areas, Israeli control over the Jordan River, Israeli control over any other "key" natural resource or strategic point in the West Bank, Israeli control over the air space over both Gaza and the West Bank, Israeli control over the coast of Gaza, and Israeli control over all of Jerusalem, AS WELL AS: have no army, renounce control over Palestinian border crossings, allowing Israel any space they deem necessary for a military base and prostrating themselves under the Israeli flag while pledge their undying allegiance to the idea of Israel as a uniquely Jewish state where Arabs can at best be second-class citizens, UNLESS all these conditions are met, then Palestinians can pretty much say forget about having a state.

Now, I know what you're thinking: "But wait... no control over air space, sea lanes, water resources, natural resources, their capital, their borders, AND criss-crossed into pieces by foreign-occupied corridors... that doesn't sound like a state to me..." But hey, actually, it's very much a state, just a... a different kind of state. The kind of state appropriate to maintain Israel's security, which is basically... almost like not having a state, and remarkably like the reality on the ground for the past few, er, DECADES, but hey, once they do all this, we can officially call it a state. You see? It's all good! Everybody wins! Israelis give up the horrible, terrible concession of having to call their occupied territories a state, and Palestinians can call their little carved up neighborhoods a state. And that's after all, what this is all about. Basically, finding a way to call the occupied territories a "State" without actually BEING a state, because a State of Palestine would apparently endanger Israel's security unless... it was actually NOT a state. See?! It's great!

What has been surprising me is that Israel apparently fears the one state solution more than anything and yet her actions in her settlements, control of vital resources like water and the isolation of Palestinian villages and so on mean that unless Israel pull back the settlements that is what she will be left with.

I was reading this article by Alastair Crooke last night. I think he has hit the nail on the head. Israel has never been open to the two state solution. Her intention has always been to use the West Bank as her frontier. It is not about security so much as her desire not to give equal rights to the Palestinians so the charade of a supposed State for the Palestinians remains supposedly on offer while all the while Israel is eating up the land.

Perhaps then the issue of assuring delivery of Palestinian security trust to Israel is something of a red herring, behind which lies a very different and so far insurmountable hurdle to the establishment of a Palestinian state. If this is so, it carries important implications of approach. It suggests that recent European and U.S. policy towards the Palestinian Authority in its security-first mode has been effectively exploited by this "other" way-of-thinking, to facilitate and empower a system of special and differential rights for one population group, at the expense of a subordinated population.

The flawed premises: two decades failed of state-making in Israel/Palestine by Alastair Crooke | The Middle East Channel