Fast and Furious: Big Deal? Or Tempest in a Teapot?

[Foxfyre]

Among other ministries, our church has adopted an orphanage located in one of the toughest areas of Juarez, Mexico. From time to time we load a truck or van with foodstuffs and other items for the orphanage, and send it down to Juarez to help out at much as we can. Those driving the van/truck and also the staff at the orphanage take the violent drug cartels and the resulting almost daily mayhem very seriously.

So when a government initiative dubbed "Fast and Furious" was thrust into the forefront when an American border guard was murdered, supposedly with guns furnished by the United States (?), the family of the guard demanded answers, that have yet to be forthcoming, and some media attention was generated.

The controversy has resulted in a bi-partisan Congressional panel holding Eric Holder, Attorney General, in contempt of Congress. This is the first time in our history that a sitting A.G. has been held in such contempt.

So what do you think? Much ado about nothing? Or should this be considered a really big deal?

Some facts compiled by the NRA Legislative Action Committee offered without comment regarding their accuracy:

 

[Foxfyre]

Some recent information re the impending legislation that is of interest, though I acknowledge I am taking it from a substantially biased source. Any legitimate rebuttal is welcomed.

William McMahon, former Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, was named as a top figure in the Obama Administration’s deadly “Fast and Furious” scandal by congressional investigators. He was also accused of giving false testimony to Congress.

McMahon has been on paid leave for the past five months. But don’t worry, he hasn’t been idle. In fact, he’s got a full time private sector executive position, working for one of those eeevil financial institutions the Obama Administration is always claiming they want to crack down on.

That’s right: you, the taxpaying sucker, are forking over McMahon’s government salary while he’s simultaneously raking in big bucks as “Executive Director of the Global Security and Investigations Group” at JP Morgan in the Phillipines. That way, he’ll be able to collect his plush government retirement benefits, even as he gets a half-year head start on his post-Fast and Furious private sector career.

In a completely unrelated coincidence, JP Morgan just happens to be the credit card provider for the ATF. And they’re big-time Obama donors.
Fast and Furious: Bill McMahon

 

[Vidi]

Its a big deal...NOT for the reasons the righties like to throw out there though.

Its a big deal because YES, there were two programs similar that were run during the Bush years , but they were abject failures and canceled.

Its was sheer arrogance on the part of the DOJ to reinstate failed programs with less safety controls in place than the previous attempts at this tactic.

If Obama knew or not is up for debate. I choose to believe that neither he nor Bush were made aware of the programs until after the failures themselves.

I also dispute the fact sheet you posted. I find it to be fast and furious with both context and facts and highly partisan. Some of it is true, other parts are half truths or pure speculation and others blatant lies.

 

[Foxfyre]

Its a big deal...NOT for the reasons the righties like to throw out there though.

Its a big deal because YES, there were two programs similar that were run during the Bush years , but they were abject failures and canceled.

Its was sheer arrogance on the part of the DOJ to reinstate failed programs with less safety controls in place than the previous attempts at this tactic.

If Obama knew or not is up for debate. I choose to believe that neither he nor Bush were made aware of the programs until after the failures themselves.

I also dispute the fact sheet you posted. I find it to be fast and furious with both context and facts and highly partisan. Some of it is true, other parts are half truths or pure speculation and others blatant lies.

I'll admit I haven't spent a lot of time delving into this particular issue so I'm still working on getting up to speed here.

Which on that list do you consider half truths and which are lies? And why or how?

And couldn't Obama have simple ordered Holder to turn over the documents the panel requested?

 

[logical4u]

Among other ministries, our church has adopted an orphanage located in one of the toughest areas of Juarez, Mexico. From time to time we load a truck or van with foodstuffs and other items for the orphanage, and send it down to Juarez to help out at much as we can. Those driving the van/truck and also the staff at the orphanage take the violent drug cartels and the resulting almost daily mayhem very seriously.

So when a government initiative dubbed "Fast and Furious" was thrust into the forefront when an American border guard was murdered, supposedly with guns furnished by the United States (?), the family of the guard demanded answers, that have yet to be forthcoming, and some media attention was generated.

The controversy has resulted in a bi-partisan Congressional panel holding Eric Holder, Attorney General, in contempt of Congress. This is the first time in our history that a sitting A.G. has been held in such contempt.

So what do you think? Much ado about nothing? Or should this be considered a really big deal?

Some facts compiled by the NRA Legislative Action Committee offered without comment regarding their accuracy:

Obama said his plan is working, I guess he will be sending more guns to the drug cartels! Vote for him if you want to see the middle class to continue decreasing, and those on welfare and food stamps to increase!

 

[Truthmatters]

there is a reason your party dropped this like it was hot edited

 

[Vidi]

Its a big deal...NOT for the reasons the righties like to throw out there though.

Its a big deal because YES, there were two programs similar that were run during the Bush years , but they were abject failures and canceled.

Its was sheer arrogance on the part of the DOJ to reinstate failed programs with less safety controls in place than the previous attempts at this tactic.

If Obama knew or not is up for debate. I choose to believe that neither he nor Bush were made aware of the programs until after the failures themselves.

I also dispute the fact sheet you posted. I find it to be fast and furious with both context and facts and highly partisan. Some of it is true, other parts are half truths or pure speculation and others blatant lies.

I'll admit I haven't spent a lot of time delving into this particular issue so I'm still working on getting up to speed here.

Which on that list do you consider half truths and which are lies? And why or how?

And couldn't Obama have simple ordered Holder to turn over the documents the panel requested?

well I did spend a lot of time on it when it first hit the news. I could even rattle off all the specific dates for a couple weeks hehe.

so lets go through them quick

Lets start with every time it says Obama's in the possessive. When I speak about the previous two operations I always say "During the Bush Years.." Never do I say "Bushs ATF" or "The Bush administration" The reason for this is these operations were conducted by non political federal employees ( ATF agents ) NOT the executive branch.

So any time I see Obama's ATF or The Obama administration in that fact sheet, I know already that its pushing blame that it cant prove.

1 & 3 are partisan nonsense, 4 uses inflammatory language to make requesting cooperation sound draconian, cant speak to 5 but I can say it uses the blame language I described above, 6 is a blatant lie as it assumes without evidence that the entire purpose of Fast and Furious was to push a gun control issue, 7 simply restates 6 in a different way and thus is just as invalid, 8 is a flat out lie, Holder turned over more than 9000 documents in the multiple times he was "requested" to testify. Each time he did, they asked for more and different ones. It wasn't until Obama invoked executive privilege that Holder refused anything, 9 is half true, Obama DID exert executive privilege, but to use the words "conceal " is inflammatory. I could use the words "protect" and be just as accurate as that statement. 10 is absolutely true...but in my opinion fails to mention that they held him in contempt for Obamas actions which negates the entire thing.


All that being said, the Fast and Furious debacle is one of the three things that I consider Obama failures that merit legitimate criticizism. The problem is, the Right is harping on the wrong aspects and thus invalidating their argument.

Oh and before anyone says Bush Started it...thats BULLSHIT!...The last operation during the Bush years was officially ended a full TWO YEARS before Fast and Furious went into operation. It is NOT a Bush era program.

 

[Foxfyre]

Among other ministries, our church has adopted an orphanage located in one of the toughest areas of Juarez, Mexico. From time to time we load a truck or van with foodstuffs and other items for the orphanage, and send it down to Juarez to help out at much as we can. Those driving the van/truck and also the staff at the orphanage take the violent drug cartels and the resulting almost daily mayhem very seriously.

So when a government initiative dubbed "Fast and Furious" was thrust into the forefront when an American border guard was murdered, supposedly with guns furnished by the United States (?), the family of the guard demanded answers, that have yet to be forthcoming, and some media attention was generated.

The controversy has resulted in a bi-partisan Congressional panel holding Eric Holder, Attorney General, in contempt of Congress. This is the first time in our history that a sitting A.G. has been held in such contempt.

So what do you think? Much ado about nothing? Or should this be considered a really big deal?

Some facts compiled by the NRA Legislative Action Committee offered without comment regarding their accuracy:

Obama said his plan is working, I guess he will be sending more guns to the drug cartels! Vote for him if you want to see the middle class to continue decreasing, and those on welfare and food stamps to increase!

Like Vidi, I don't know whether Obama was involved in or knew about the program, but he does seem to be protecting Holder.

And lets keep this focused on Fast and Furious and related issues please. We'll deal with a declining middle class and the entitlement class in separate threads.

 

[Foxfyre]

Its a big deal...NOT for the reasons the righties like to throw out there though.

Its a big deal because YES, there were two programs similar that were run during the Bush years , but they were abject failures and canceled.

Its was sheer arrogance on the part of the DOJ to reinstate failed programs with less safety controls in place than the previous attempts at this tactic.

If Obama knew or not is up for debate. I choose to believe that neither he nor Bush were made aware of the programs until after the failures themselves.

I also dispute the fact sheet you posted. I find it to be fast and furious with both context and facts and highly partisan. Some of it is true, other parts are half truths or pure speculation and others blatant lies.

I'll admit I haven't spent a lot of time delving into this particular issue so I'm still working on getting up to speed here.

Which on that list do you consider half truths and which are lies? And why or how?

And couldn't Obama have simple ordered Holder to turn over the documents the panel requested?

so lets go through them quick

Lets start with every time it says Obama's in the possessive. When I speak about the previous two operations I always say "During the Bush Years.." Never do I say "Bushs ATF" or "The Bush administration" The reason for this is these operations were conducted by non political federal employees ( ATF agents ) NOT the executive branch.

So any time I see Obama's ATF or The Obama administration in that fact sheet, I know already that its pushing blame that it cant prove.

1 & 3 are partisan nonsense, 4 uses inflammatory language to make requesting cooperation sound draconian, cant speak to 5 but I can say it uses the blame language I described above, 6 is a blatant lie as it assumes without evidence that the entire purpose of Fast and Furious was to push a gun control issue, 7 simply restates 6 in a different way and thus is just as invalid, 8 is a flat out lie, Holder turned over more than 9000 documents in the multiple times he was "requested" to testify. Each time he did, they asked for more and different ones. It wasn't until Obama invoked executive privilege that Holder refused anything, 9 is half true, Obama DID exert executive privilege, but to use the words "conceal " is inflammatory. I could use the words "protect" and be just as accurate as that statement. 10 is absolutely true...but in my opinion fails to mention that they held him in contempt for Obamas actions which negates the entire thing.

So with the exception of No. 8, your primary objection is the language or implications rather than with the substance of the statements? Language and implication do not make something a lie. I don't doubt the statements include some partisan bias, but I don't really care why you don't like how the statement is worded. I want to know why or how the statement is a lie. (Anybody under the authority of the President can legitimately be referred to as related to his administration.)

As for No. 8, how do you know that Holder turned over what was asked of him.? I'm sure any government agency could turn over thousands and thousands of documents to a Congressional committee without ever proviiding so much as a post-it-note directly related to the specific information requested by that committee.

 

[Vidi]

Among other ministries, our church has adopted an orphanage located in one of the toughest areas of Juarez, Mexico. From time to time we load a truck or van with foodstuffs and other items for the orphanage, and send it down to Juarez to help out at much as we can. Those driving the van/truck and also the staff at the orphanage take the violent drug cartels and the resulting almost daily mayhem very seriously.

So when a government initiative dubbed "Fast and Furious" was thrust into the forefront when an American border guard was murdered, supposedly with guns furnished by the United States (?), the family of the guard demanded answers, that have yet to be forthcoming, and some media attention was generated.

The controversy has resulted in a bi-partisan Congressional panel holding Eric Holder, Attorney General, in contempt of Congress. This is the first time in our history that a sitting A.G. has been held in such contempt.

So what do you think? Much ado about nothing? Or should this be considered a really big deal?

Some facts compiled by the NRA Legislative Action Committee offered without comment regarding their accuracy:

Obama said his plan is working, I guess he will be sending more guns to the drug cartels! Vote for him if you want to see the middle class to continue decreasing, and those on welfare and food stamps to increase!

Like Vidi, I don't know whether Obama was involved in or knew about the program, but he does seem to be protecting Holder.

And lets keep this focused on Fast and Furious and related issues please. We'll deal with a declining middle class and the entitlement class in separate threads.

Agreed.

i think its important to note however that your "fact"sheet comes from the NRA.

While I am a member of the NRA, I have considered withdrawing my support from them as I feel they have become far too partisan and radical reactionary the last several years which has removed them from my own personal "reliable source" list.

Up to you if you feel otherwise.

 

[rdean]

I think it's a big deal Issa needs to subpoena members of the Bush administration and find out who started this program and why they hid it from the Obama Administration.

 

[Foxfyre]

Obama said his plan is working, I guess he will be sending more guns to the drug cartels! Vote for him if you want to see the middle class to continue decreasing, and those on welfare and food stamps to increase!

Like Vidi, I don't know whether Obama was involved in or knew about the program, but he does seem to be protecting Holder.

And lets keep this focused on Fast and Furious and related issues please. We'll deal with a declining middle class and the entitlement class in separate threads.

Agreed.

i think its important to note however that your "fact"sheet comes from the NRA.

While I am a member of the NRA, I have considered withdrawing my support from them as I feel they have become far too partisan and radical reactionary the last several years which has removed them from my own personal "reliable source" list.

Up to you if you feel otherwise.

I'm honestly not that concerned about the source as the NRA research groups generally do pretty good research. And this in no way concerns the NRA as an organization. I am interested in the substance of the statements as to whether they are accurate or not.

(I am not a member of the NRA.)

 

[Dr Grump]

So with the exception of No. 8, your primary objection is the language or implications rather than with the substance of the statements?

Not at all. It appears he is saying that the substance is lacking. He says it several times...

And he would be right in the most part...

 

[Foxfyre]

So with the exception of No. 8, your primary objection is the language or implications rather than with the substance of the statements?

Not at all. It appears he is saying that the substance is lacking. He says it several times...

And he would be right in the most part...

Okay, so if he can't show me where those statements are lies, please feel free to do so. I've been doing some research on my own today and so far I haven't found any of them that I can say are a lie. However, I also haven't been able to find conclusive evidence that the 'illegal' part of No. 1 is true either. I'm hoping somebody who has researched this will cast some light on that.

 

[Foxfyre]

Here are a couple of pretty good articles that summarize the issues as stated:

A primer on the "Fast and Furious" scandal - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

PJ Media » Gunwalker Scandal Escalates: Grenadewalker?

 

[Vidi]

I think it's a big deal Issa needs to subpoena members of the Bush administration and find out who started this program and why they hid it from the Obama Administration.

RDEan,

Your statement is not based in fact. Fast and Furious was started a full two years after the last Bush era program was ended.

Just as you cannot blame Obama for things that started before he took office , you cannot blame Bush for operations that began after he left office.

 

[Dr Grump]

So with the exception of No. 8, your primary objection is the language or implications rather than with the substance of the statements?

Not at all. It appears he is saying that the substance is lacking. He says it several times...

And he would be right in the most part...

Okay, so if he can't show me where those statements are lies, please feel free to do so. I've been doing some research on my own today and so far I haven't found any of them that I can say are a lie. However, I also haven't been able to find conclusive evidence that the 'illegal' part of No. 1 is true either. I'm hoping somebody who has researched this will cast some light on that.

If you can find any evidence of number six I'd be most interested....That one alone belongs in the conspiracy theory folder...

 

[Vidi]

Representative Darrell Issa’s committee has pushed and pushed for documents relating to that period, receiving almost 7,000 pages—none of which contain any evidence of a cover-up.

The committee pushed until they finally hit the bottom of the barrel, requesting documents that the administration says are privileged and can’t be released.

Facts Get in the Way of GOP's Fast and Furious Investigation | The Nation

Holder has produced THOUSANDS of documents. Issa was never satisfied and kept asking for more and more documents . Finally, they reached the point where documents they demanded would make information about ongoing investigations public. At least thats the claim. If the claim is true, then those documents should NOT be released. They could jeopardize years of work, possibly even put undercover agents at risk. If we are serious about law and order, sometimes we have to accept that certain things must be kept secret in order for an investigation to produce positive results. Thats just the way it is.

and heres a few more "facts" that people should be made aware of

The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking within the U.S., so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits

But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.establishing one.

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Conflicting reports, huh?

heres one last one from the above link.

The ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.

 

[Foxfyre]

Not at all. It appears he is saying that the substance is lacking. He says it several times...

And he would be right in the most part...

Okay, so if he can't show me where those statements are lies, please feel free to do so. I've been doing some research on my own today and so far I haven't found any of them that I can say are a lie. However, I also haven't been able to find conclusive evidence that the 'illegal' part of No. 1 is true either. I'm hoping somebody who has researched this will cast some light on that.

If you can find any evidence of number six I'd be most interested....That one alone belongs in the conspiracy theory folder...

No. 6 says: "The Obama administration armed violent Mexican drug cartels and endangered America lives to push a gun control agenda."

From Politfact:

A January 2012 report by House Democrats says the strategy of permitting illegal guns to flow to cartels in Mexico in hopes of building cases against vital figures originated with federal law officers in Arizona in 2006, which was when George W. Bush was president.

"Unfortunately, this strategy failed to include sufficient operational controls to stop these dangerous weapons from getting into the hands of violent criminals, creating a danger to public safety on both sides of the border," Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Maryland, told colleagues in a Jan. 30, 2012, letter summarizing the report. His letter says Fast and Furious was the fourth federal operation since 2006 in which gun-walking occurred.

Finally, we reached the office of Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, who has been critical of Fast and Furious. Grassley spokeswoman Jill Gerber provided a partially redacted document that appears to be a Jan. 8, 2010, briefing paper on Fast and Furious originated by federal authorities based in Arizona. Its bullet point No. 13 opens: "Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate and illegally traffic" firearms to Mexican drug trafficking organizations "perpetrating armed violence along the Southwest Border."

Informed of Perry’s statement, Gerber said by email: "It’s more accurate and complete to say the ‘Obama administration’ provided guns to Mexican drug cartels rather than" to "say President Obama himself did so."

Our ruling

Fast and Furious, intended to send guns to Mexican drug cartels toward building cases against key figures, took place on Obama’s watch. However, unlike the other results bemoaned by Perry at the convention -- growth in the federal debt and the passage of Obamacare and the stimulus -- we see no indication Obama had an influential role in the border operation. That is, there is no sign that Obama either initiated or approved the deliberate flow of guns to cartels.
PolitiFact Texas | Rick Perry says Obama has provided guns to Mexican drug cartels

 

[rdean]

the Justice Department's inspector general found in a review of ATF cases from 2007 to 2009. To refocus its efforts, the ATF established Group VII and the other Southwest border units to build big, multi-defendant conspiracy cases and target the leaders of the trafficking operations.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Irony abounds when it comes to the Fast and Furious scandal. But the ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features