Fair Share Poll

[AVG-JOE]

Nope, everyone should pay the same % in tax.

Why? The rich control the outcome of elections. The rich benefit the most from our system. Do the rich fight the wars for our freedoms and THEIR advantages in our country and the world? The sons and daughters of the poor fight to make it possible for the rich to have the safety to make their money. Eisenhower taxed the INCOME of the wealthy 90% and somehow they managed to do pretty well. No mam. The wealthy of today are weak weasels that cannot do what they are allowed to do without gaming the system.

The day the wealthy volunteer to serve in the armed forces that make their scam possible is the day I will see it your way.

Another IDIOT Wealth Envier that whines about it on a message board...

Get OFF YOUR ASS and do something about it or go back to your spiderhole thread and stew.

It is NOT "wealth envy" to expect that those who are making a fortune using our common infrastructure to help pay for it and help pay for the security forces that protect it.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Flat tax for everyone. No deductions, no right offs, no shenanigans, just a flat 10% for everybody. There will be no tax season or returns or tax payments.

The left is always bitchin about "equality" yet they have devised the most un-equal and complicated tax system ever. Then they bitch about the wealthy hiring people to find the tax loopholes and end up paying less then their tax bracket. Its your mess you idiots.

Its called a PROGRESSIVE tax for a reason. Its corrupt, complicated, and detrimental to our society.

The "flat tax" mantra is in fact a simple solution for simple minds. But, as Nosmo King has pointed out, it favors the higher income levels and works against the best interest of the national economy.

And the notion that "the left" has devised the tax system is more nonsense put forth by the Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity propaganda machine. The tax system has been so effectively gimmicked by corrupted tax legislators that understanding it is challenging even to Ph.D. economists -- but it works out just fine for entities like Exxon, which paid zero tax in 2009 and 2010. That's zero as in $0. But their Ph.D. tax lawyers will be glad to explain the reason for it within about 500 pages of brain-bending legalistic bullshit.

The simple fact is no one at the IRS is capable of dealing with the caliber of legal talent the super-rich send in to represent them in their masterfully manipulative evasions. These guys go into tax court and even the judges are baffled by the paperwork they submit.

It's time for fair and SIMPLE taxes in this country.

7 + 7 on 3

 

[asterism]

I have a better solution to all our problems.

They say you are paid based on what your worth, and in this Global Free market, if a China man for example can build a widget cheaper than you can, then your being overpaid.

So, in this free market, your wages are based on what value you contribute compared to others.

But there is a major distortion involved in this free market.

CEO Pay in the US vs the rest of the world

http://www.cab.latech.edu/~mkroll/510_papers/fall_05/group6.pdf

Country Ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay
Japan 11:1
Germany 12:1
France 15:1
Italy 20:1
Canada 20:1
South Africa 21:1
Britain 22:1
Hong Kong 41:1
Mexico 47:1
Venezuela 50:1
United States 475:1

CLEARLY, CEO's in the US are being overpaid, because there are many CEO's in the rest of the world that can do their job at a fraction of the cost. The CEO's are NOT letting the Global "Free Market" work to determine their pay.

We need to institute a government run VISA Program to get these foreign CEO's into this country to take these jobs of these other CEO's. It will make the company more "efficient" and save money, and these savings will get passed down to the workers in the form of higher wages.

Now here is the part that will also help most Americans.

If you add up all the pay that CEO's receive in this country, it would account for a large percentage of the money in this country. Bringing in foreign CEO's with a much lower pay, will cause a lot of that money to go to the little people, whom can then afford those taxes many are complaining about.

So come on CEO's of America, let the Global Free market work, boot out your board of directors and let some CEO's from overseas come and take your jobs that can do it for a fraction of the cost.

How much is all the pay that CEOs receive in this country?

 

[asterism]

Controlling income distribution through taxation is by nature social engineering.

Of course it is. And who told you all social engineering is bad? Beck? Limbaugh? Hannity?

No. It's a conclusion I reached myself.

There is good social engineering and bad social engineering. Equitable and productive distribution of the Nation's wealth resources is good social engineering. What is going on today is quite clearly not good.

The problem with your "good social engineering" is that it hinges on a government defining "equitable" and governments aren't good at that. Using the tax code to accomplish this defeats the purpose of taxes, which is to fund government operations.

Also, your premise is flawed because demand is only part of the equation. Efficient means to meet that demand is also required and is not encouraged by taxing high earners to subsidize middle and low earners, who cannot efficiently meet the demand by themselves.

What's the incentive to take a risk and innovate if a greater share of the profit is merely taxed away? What's the incentive to not simply "demand" more if all it takes is some scheme to get more money from those who have earned it?

Actually it's your premise which is flawed.

The income tax rate of upper income levels:

1950 - 91%

1980 - 70%

1985 - 50%

1987 - 38%

2004 - 35%

2010 - 15%

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f...y-june2010.pdf

There is more to the picture than that distorted set of number. The upper income tax rate is not 15% and when it was 91% there were so many loopholes virtually nobody paid that rate.

The period from the 1940s to the 1980s were the most productive and prosperous years in our history. It was also the period in which the mega-rich were subjected to the highest tax rates in our history (91%). The interesting thing is it didn't make them un-rich. Just a little less rich. But the Nation was much healthier during those years, which is the really important thing.

That's simply not true.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/COMPRNFB

 

[AVG-JOE]

Same as a fair share for the "middle class" and the "poor"

Everyone should pay the same

Sounds good, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, there are multiple reasons it can never work, and should never be attempted.

One, the rich use a disproportionately large portion of the commons. Two, there is a moral dilemma about food for the week vs. third yacht (although I've never heard of a flat tax scheme that didn't have some sort of untaxed lower limit, to be fair). Three, without safeguards, aristocracy will form followed by a caste Dickens-esque vision of the country, followed by class revolution.

Well said!

Something I find absolutely baffling is why so many who probably don't have a pot to piss in or are barely getting by are inclined to support the right of the super-rich to defend their massively excessive wealth-hoards against progressive taxation. This is a behavioral phenomenon I can't begin to understand.

The only explanation that occurs to me is, as someone has already suggested, these cheerleaders for the new American aristocracy are examples of brainwash by the likes of Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity. They seem to be converts to the religion of greed, the Gordon Gecko philosophy, and are incapable of reason.

Have you given this some thought?

I'm with you, Man. I too simply do NOT understand the 'average' Republican. There simply can't be that many voters who can honestly say that they benefit from the current tax code.

It has to be the red-neck fear of gays and non Christians and other social issues that has so many voting against their own pocket-books.

I wonder how deeply into the pockets of these fearful Americans the uber-wealthy will get their fingers before the Republican red-necks will wise up?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Flat tax for everyone. No deductions, no right offs, no shenanigans, just a flat 10% for everybody. There will be no tax season or returns or tax payments.

The left is always bitchin about "equality" yet they have devised the most un-equal and complicated tax system ever. Then they bitch about the wealthy hiring people to find the tax loopholes and end up paying less then their tax bracket. Its your mess you idiots.

Its called a PROGRESSIVE tax for a reason. Its corrupt, complicated, and detrimental to our society.

The "flat tax" mantra is in fact a simple solution for simple minds. But, as Nosmo King has pointed out, it favors the higher income levels and works against the best interest of the national economy.

And the notion that "the left" has devised the tax system is more nonsense put forth by the Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity propaganda machine. The tax system has been so effectively gimmicked by corrupted tax legislators that understanding it is challenging even to Ph.D. economists -- but it works out just fine for entities like Exxon, which paid zero tax in 2009 and 2010. That's zero as in $0. But their Ph.D. tax lawyers will be glad to explain the reason for it within about 500 pages of brain-bending legalistic bullshit.

The simple fact is no one at the IRS is capable of dealing with the caliber of legal talent the super-rich send in to represent them in their masterfully manipulative evasions. These guys go into tax court and even the judges are baffled by the paperwork they submit.

exactly-----it's not the law---it's who can "explain" it the best to a judge. The more money you have the better the "explanation" you can provide.

I like the way you put that - nice and simple - like our laws SHOULD be!

 

[editec]

How much is the "fair share" for the rich..??

Silly question that misses the point of society and taxation entirely.

 

[Polk]

i support one flat tax for every person's income, for all taxes collected by the Fed AND on all income, over and above a Standard deduction for every person, for their cost of living.

I like the idea philosophically. The problem is realities of implementation. People tend to be much willing to "work" for an additional dollar of wage income than for an additional dollar of capital gains.

?

maybe I was not clear.... I think Capital gains, dividend income and wage income should be considered "income", ONCE a standard deduction amount is given for the cost of living for basics.

I think the gas tax, and cigarette tax etc should be abolished, the flat tax percentage chosen, should include those revenue streams as well.

Income, according to the constitution, is considered profit....

sooooo, a standard deduction for basic living expenses has to be part of this flat tax....before they can apply the flat tax on income.

(this means, those making very little, may still not be paying any federal income taxes, if they only earn enough for a basic cost of living.)

And all the rest of us, would not pay this flat tax on this standard deduction amount either....only what is above that amount....so all is fair.

I knew what you meant. I'm just thinking about the practical issues involved in taxing capital gains at the same rate as wage income.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I like the idea philosophically. The problem is realities of implementation. People tend to be much willing to "work" for an additional dollar of wage income than for an additional dollar of capital gains.

?

maybe I was not clear.... I think Capital gains, dividend income and wage income should be considered "income", ONCE a standard deduction amount is given for the cost of living for basics.

I think the gas tax, and cigarette tax etc should be abolished, the flat tax percentage chosen, should include those revenue streams as well.

Income, according to the constitution, is considered profit....

sooooo, a standard deduction for basic living expenses has to be part of this flat tax....before they can apply the flat tax on income.

(this means, those making very little, may still not be paying any federal income taxes, if they only earn enough for a basic cost of living.)

And all the rest of us, would not pay this flat tax on this standard deduction amount either....only what is above that amount....so all is fair.

I knew what you meant. I'm just thinking about the practical issues involved in taxing capital gains at the same rate as wage income.

It won't make any difference, if everyone pays 7% on ANY and ALL income in excess of $3 Million per year and a 7% general sales tax on all purchases.