F35 - superfighter or lame duck?

[Daryl Hunt]

You are still whining. Meanwhile, the F-35 continues to progress into a fantastic ground attack. It's already proven. What next, you going to start the tire Inflatagate?

It's already "proven"? What the heck has it attacked?

This years Green Flag, did did the mission that the F-16 and the A-10 failed to do. It hit every target called in and the only way it could be told it was even in the area was the targets were destroyed with precision. 2 Pre Production F-35As survived with no losses. That is about as close to real combat as one can be in without having a real declaration of war. The F-35A works just fine and will be in service in 2016. The closer to the actual service date, the more your ravings are just ravings.

USAF really really wants it's pilots to survive battles. Unlike you that want them all killed in combat. How dare USAF.

You weaken your argument when you make snide, untruthful comments such as that. Just sayin. As to the F-35 surviving the exercise, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Here is a good discussion on the current state of the F-35. I wasn't aware they had to send the USS Wasp back in to redo her flightdeck. Seems the heat of the F-35 engines wasn't taken into account when they built the ship.


F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag Defense content from Aviation Week

Sorry to bring in facts. They do get in your way and should always be ignored.

As for cheap work, guess if you get rid of all your small carrier AC that's dumb, really dumb. Then you want to cancel the replacement AC. Well, shoddy work is shoddy work. They need to get that flight deck usable. Or they can listen to you and lose the next little tiff against a 3rd word, 5th rate country.

You mean like we're doing already? The Airfarce brass is all alike. They think they can win battles by bombing people. That hasn't worked yet. You need boots on the ground to win a fight. Those boots on the ground need a aircraft with a huge bomb load, and the loiter time to stick around for a while. We need a COIN aircraft and the Airfarce brass are buying a weapon system for a non existent opponent.

It's kind of like the Navy's new Littoral Combat Vessels. Designed to go in close and are all radar canceling but the good old Mark I eye ball can see them just fine. I remember when the Argentinians sailed one of their destroyers into the harbor at South Georgia Island and the Royal Marines knocked it out in seconds with LAWS and Carl Gustav rounds.

Nice to see our top Navy Brass have learned that lesson so well.

As have you, apparently.

Since CAS is rarely done by the USN, the Marines and USAF require You brought up a good point. If those ground guys can see you, they have some really nasty surprises. This is why the F-16 and A-10 failed to survive the 2014 Green Flag. And the losses of both of them have been from ground fire in the Middle East. During the 2015 Green Flag, two F-35s were assigned to one side to handle all the CAS missions.Not only did they take out the bad guys, they had zero losses. You have to see it to hit it whether you are using IR, Radar or MkII Eyeballs. The F-35A is ready to go into production next year and it can already handle CAS better than the two assigned it now. Dead Pilots don't fly again. Live Pilots that make it home do.

The argument that the Army has used for keeping the A-10 just went out the window.

Besides, you can drop a barrage of bombs to hit the target or you can just shoot your standoff missile and hit dead center. Either way, the target is gone. The difference is, to drop those gaggle of bombs you have to be able to see your target. To use that Maverick or Hellfire, you have to see your target. Your target also can see you.

Your argument is also gone. It's just whining at this point.

 

[westwall]

It's already "proven"? What the heck has it attacked?

This years Green Flag, did did the mission that the F-16 and the A-10 failed to do. It hit every target called in and the only way it could be told it was even in the area was the targets were destroyed with precision. 2 Pre Production F-35As survived with no losses. That is about as close to real combat as one can be in without having a real declaration of war. The F-35A works just fine and will be in service in 2016. The closer to the actual service date, the more your ravings are just ravings.

USAF really really wants it's pilots to survive battles. Unlike you that want them all killed in combat. How dare USAF.

You weaken your argument when you make snide, untruthful comments such as that. Just sayin. As to the F-35 surviving the exercise, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Here is a good discussion on the current state of the F-35. I wasn't aware they had to send the USS Wasp back in to redo her flightdeck. Seems the heat of the F-35 engines wasn't taken into account when they built the ship.


F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag Defense content from Aviation Week

Sorry to bring in facts. They do get in your way and should always be ignored.

As for cheap work, guess if you get rid of all your small carrier AC that's dumb, really dumb. Then you want to cancel the replacement AC. Well, shoddy work is shoddy work. They need to get that flight deck usable. Or they can listen to you and lose the next little tiff against a 3rd word, 5th rate country.

You mean like we're doing already? The Airfarce brass is all alike. They think they can win battles by bombing people. That hasn't worked yet. You need boots on the ground to win a fight. Those boots on the ground need a aircraft with a huge bomb load, and the loiter time to stick around for a while. We need a COIN aircraft and the Airfarce brass are buying a weapon system for a non existent opponent.

It's kind of like the Navy's new Littoral Combat Vessels. Designed to go in close and are all radar canceling but the good old Mark I eye ball can see them just fine. I remember when the Argentinians sailed one of their destroyers into the harbor at South Georgia Island and the Royal Marines knocked it out in seconds with LAWS and Carl Gustav rounds.

Nice to see our top Navy Brass have learned that lesson so well.

As have you, apparently.

Since CAS is rarely done by the USN, the Marines and USAF require You brought up a good point. If those ground guys can see you, they have some really nasty surprises. This is why the F-16 and A-10 failed to survive the 2014 Green Flag. And the losses of both of them have been from ground fire in the Middle East. During the 2015 Green Flag, two F-35s were assigned to one side to handle all the CAS missions.Not only did they take out the bad guys, they had zero losses. You have to see it to hit it whether you are using IR, Radar or MkII Eyeballs. The F-35A is ready to go into production next year and it can already handle CAS better than the two assigned it now. Dead Pilots don't fly again. Live Pilots that make it home do.

The argument that the Army has used for keeping the A-10 just went out the window.

Besides, you can drop a barrage of bombs to hit the target or you can just shoot your standoff missile and hit dead center. Either way, the target is gone. The difference is, to drop those gaggle of bombs you have to be able to see your target. To use that Maverick or Hellfire, you have to see your target. Your target also can see you.

Your argument is also gone. It's just whining at this point.

No, my points are valid. You are relying solely on biased reporting from the Air Force to further the program. Which is totally expected, I certainly don't fault them for that, however there is so little REAL information coming out that their response, and your championing of them, remind me more of PRAVDA than anything real.

The Air Force cost estimates are totally silly. There's no way that this aircraft is going to cost less than a Rafael, to claim that it will relies on willful stupidity from the readers of those reports. The performance quotes are less than believable, but if they are great, it's doing what it's supposed to. However when the newer generation of VHF radars come on line all that stealth tech will go right out the window.

And the cycle will begin again.

P.S. The idea in war is to kill the enemy as quickly and cheaply as possible. The idea that you would expend a 18,000 bomb to kill someone on a regular basis is pretty ridiculous. That's a real good way to go broke. Oh look, we're broke.

 

[Manonthestreet]

BTW a-10 has been under pretty steady fire in Afghanistan and Iraq by Advanced AAM........how many have been lost?

 

[Manonthestreet]

This years Green Flag, did did the mission that the F-16 and the A-10 failed to do. It hit every target called in and the only way it could be told it was even in the area was the targets were destroyed with precision. 2 Pre Production F-35As survived with no losses. That is about as close to real combat as one can be in without having a real declaration of war. The F-35A works just fine and will be in service in 2016. The closer to the actual service date, the more your ravings are just ravings.

USAF really really wants it's pilots to survive battles. Unlike you that want them all killed in combat. How dare USAF.

You weaken your argument when you make snide, untruthful comments such as that. Just sayin. As to the F-35 surviving the exercise, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Here is a good discussion on the current state of the F-35. I wasn't aware they had to send the USS Wasp back in to redo her flightdeck. Seems the heat of the F-35 engines wasn't taken into account when they built the ship.


F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag Defense content from Aviation Week

Sorry to bring in facts. They do get in your way and should always be ignored.

As for cheap work, guess if you get rid of all your small carrier AC that's dumb, really dumb. Then you want to cancel the replacement AC. Well, shoddy work is shoddy work. They need to get that flight deck usable. Or they can listen to you and lose the next little tiff against a 3rd word, 5th rate country.

You mean like we're doing already? The Airfarce brass is all alike. They think they can win battles by bombing people. That hasn't worked yet. You need boots on the ground to win a fight. Those boots on the ground need a aircraft with a huge bomb load, and the loiter time to stick around for a while. We need a COIN aircraft and the Airfarce brass are buying a weapon system for a non existent opponent.

It's kind of like the Navy's new Littoral Combat Vessels. Designed to go in close and are all radar canceling but the good old Mark I eye ball can see them just fine. I remember when the Argentinians sailed one of their destroyers into the harbor at South Georgia Island and the Royal Marines knocked it out in seconds with LAWS and Carl Gustav rounds.

Nice to see our top Navy Brass have learned that lesson so well.

As have you, apparently.

Since CAS is rarely done by the USN, the Marines and USAF require You brought up a good point. If those ground guys can see you, they have some really nasty surprises. This is why the F-16 and A-10 failed to survive the 2014 Green Flag. And the losses of both of them have been from ground fire in the Middle East. During the 2015 Green Flag, two F-35s were assigned to one side to handle all the CAS missions.Not only did they take out the bad guys, they had zero losses. You have to see it to hit it whether you are using IR, Radar or MkII Eyeballs. The F-35A is ready to go into production next year and it can already handle CAS better than the two assigned it now. Dead Pilots don't fly again. Live Pilots that make it home do.

The argument that the Army has used for keeping the A-10 just went out the window.

Besides, you can drop a barrage of bombs to hit the target or you can just shoot your standoff missile and hit dead center. Either way, the target is gone. The difference is, to drop those gaggle of bombs you have to be able to see your target. To use that Maverick or Hellfire, you have to see your target. Your target also can see you.

Your argument is also gone. It's just whining at this point.

No, my points are valid. You are relying solely on biased reporting from the Air Force to further the program. Which is totally expected, I certainly don't fault them for that, however there is so little REAL information coming out that their response, and your championing of them, remind me more of PRAVDA than anything real.

The Air Force cost estimates are totally silly. There's no way that this aircraft is going to cost less than a Rafael, to claim that it will relies on willful stupidity from the readers of those reports. The performance quotes are less than believable, but if they are great, it's doing what it's supposed to. However when the newer generation of VHF radars come on line all that stealth tech will go right out the window.

And the cycle will begin again.

P.S. The idea in war is to kill the enemy as quickly and cheaply as possible. The idea that you would expend a 18,000 bomb to kill someone on a regular basis is pretty ridiculous. That's a real good way to go broke. Oh look, we're broke.

Not to mention losing on F-35 would have built how many A-10s or F--16s.....for that matter Scorpion might be better option

 

[westwall]

You weaken your argument when you make snide, untruthful comments such as that. Just sayin. As to the F-35 surviving the exercise, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Here is a good discussion on the current state of the F-35. I wasn't aware they had to send the USS Wasp back in to redo her flightdeck. Seems the heat of the F-35 engines wasn't taken into account when they built the ship.


F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag Defense content from Aviation Week

Sorry to bring in facts. They do get in your way and should always be ignored.

As for cheap work, guess if you get rid of all your small carrier AC that's dumb, really dumb. Then you want to cancel the replacement AC. Well, shoddy work is shoddy work. They need to get that flight deck usable. Or they can listen to you and lose the next little tiff against a 3rd word, 5th rate country.

You mean like we're doing already? The Airfarce brass is all alike. They think they can win battles by bombing people. That hasn't worked yet. You need boots on the ground to win a fight. Those boots on the ground need a aircraft with a huge bomb load, and the loiter time to stick around for a while. We need a COIN aircraft and the Airfarce brass are buying a weapon system for a non existent opponent.

It's kind of like the Navy's new Littoral Combat Vessels. Designed to go in close and are all radar canceling but the good old Mark I eye ball can see them just fine. I remember when the Argentinians sailed one of their destroyers into the harbor at South Georgia Island and the Royal Marines knocked it out in seconds with LAWS and Carl Gustav rounds.

Nice to see our top Navy Brass have learned that lesson so well.

As have you, apparently.

Since CAS is rarely done by the USN, the Marines and USAF require You brought up a good point. If those ground guys can see you, they have some really nasty surprises. This is why the F-16 and A-10 failed to survive the 2014 Green Flag. And the losses of both of them have been from ground fire in the Middle East. During the 2015 Green Flag, two F-35s were assigned to one side to handle all the CAS missions.Not only did they take out the bad guys, they had zero losses. You have to see it to hit it whether you are using IR, Radar or MkII Eyeballs. The F-35A is ready to go into production next year and it can already handle CAS better than the two assigned it now. Dead Pilots don't fly again. Live Pilots that make it home do.

The argument that the Army has used for keeping the A-10 just went out the window.

Besides, you can drop a barrage of bombs to hit the target or you can just shoot your standoff missile and hit dead center. Either way, the target is gone. The difference is, to drop those gaggle of bombs you have to be able to see your target. To use that Maverick or Hellfire, you have to see your target. Your target also can see you.

Your argument is also gone. It's just whining at this point.

No, my points are valid. You are relying solely on biased reporting from the Air Force to further the program. Which is totally expected, I certainly don't fault them for that, however there is so little REAL information coming out that their response, and your championing of them, remind me more of PRAVDA than anything real.

The Air Force cost estimates are totally silly. There's no way that this aircraft is going to cost less than a Rafael, to claim that it will relies on willful stupidity from the readers of those reports. The performance quotes are less than believable, but if they are great, it's doing what it's supposed to. However when the newer generation of VHF radars come on line all that stealth tech will go right out the window.

And the cycle will begin again.

P.S. The idea in war is to kill the enemy as quickly and cheaply as possible. The idea that you would expend a 18,000 bomb to kill someone on a regular basis is pretty ridiculous. That's a real good way to go broke. Oh look, we're broke.

Not to mention losing on F-35 would have built how many A-10s or F--16s.....for that matter Scorpion might be better option

Yep, what good old Daryl doesn't seem to understand is you need to get the most bang for your buck possible. A fleet of hangar queens does no one the slightest bit of good.

 

[HenryBHough]

Deficits being what they are, The Navy can afford to have ships OR buy F35's.

But not both.

 

[williepete]

Daryl,

I was a FAC in the OA-37B and the A-10 as well as on the ground. I'm having a hard time following your position.

What are your credentials? What is your experience in CAS?

Were you present at the CLASSIFIED Green Flag debriefings you reference? If so, why are you posting the results here? Are you that interested in living at Fort Leavenworth for several years?

CAS is rarely done by the USN, Marines, USAF?
Say again, you're coming in garbled.

An Army argument to keep the A-10? The A-10 is an Air Force asset and lives or dies by the Air Force budget whims-- arguments of the Army be damned.

Where does your font of expertise come from?

Not picking a fight. Just want to understand where you developed your position. Soon the F-35 may be the only game in town and it will have to perform CAS. Procedures will be in place by then for it to be as effective as it can be. If you are on the inside and already know these procedures and methods, why are you showing our hand here? An itching desire to be married to the guy with the most cigarettes?

Cheers,



“Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know." --Lao Tzu

 

[Daryl Hunt]

This years Green Flag, did did the mission that the F-16 and the A-10 failed to do. It hit every target called in and the only way it could be told it was even in the area was the targets were destroyed with precision. 2 Pre Production F-35As survived with no losses. That is about as close to real combat as one can be in without having a real declaration of war. The F-35A works just fine and will be in service in 2016. The closer to the actual service date, the more your ravings are just ravings.

USAF really really wants it's pilots to survive battles. Unlike you that want them all killed in combat. How dare USAF.

You weaken your argument when you make snide, untruthful comments such as that. Just sayin. As to the F-35 surviving the exercise, good. That's what it's supposed to do. Here is a good discussion on the current state of the F-35. I wasn't aware they had to send the USS Wasp back in to redo her flightdeck. Seems the heat of the F-35 engines wasn't taken into account when they built the ship.


F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag Defense content from Aviation Week

Sorry to bring in facts. They do get in your way and should always be ignored.

As for cheap work, guess if you get rid of all your small carrier AC that's dumb, really dumb. Then you want to cancel the replacement AC. Well, shoddy work is shoddy work. They need to get that flight deck usable. Or they can listen to you and lose the next little tiff against a 3rd word, 5th rate country.

You mean like we're doing already? The Airfarce brass is all alike. They think they can win battles by bombing people. That hasn't worked yet. You need boots on the ground to win a fight. Those boots on the ground need a aircraft with a huge bomb load, and the loiter time to stick around for a while. We need a COIN aircraft and the Airfarce brass are buying a weapon system for a non existent opponent.

It's kind of like the Navy's new Littoral Combat Vessels. Designed to go in close and are all radar canceling but the good old Mark I eye ball can see them just fine. I remember when the Argentinians sailed one of their destroyers into the harbor at South Georgia Island and the Royal Marines knocked it out in seconds with LAWS and Carl Gustav rounds.

Nice to see our top Navy Brass have learned that lesson so well.

As have you, apparently.

Since CAS is rarely done by the USN, the Marines and USAF require You brought up a good point. If those ground guys can see you, they have some really nasty surprises. This is why the F-16 and A-10 failed to survive the 2014 Green Flag. And the losses of both of them have been from ground fire in the Middle East. During the 2015 Green Flag, two F-35s were assigned to one side to handle all the CAS missions.Not only did they take out the bad guys, they had zero losses. You have to see it to hit it whether you are using IR, Radar or MkII Eyeballs. The F-35A is ready to go into production next year and it can already handle CAS better than the two assigned it now. Dead Pilots don't fly again. Live Pilots that make it home do.

The argument that the Army has used for keeping the A-10 just went out the window.

Besides, you can drop a barrage of bombs to hit the target or you can just shoot your standoff missile and hit dead center. Either way, the target is gone. The difference is, to drop those gaggle of bombs you have to be able to see your target. To use that Maverick or Hellfire, you have to see your target. Your target also can see you.

Your argument is also gone. It's just whining at this point.

No, my points are valid. You are relying solely on biased reporting from the Air Force to further the program. Which is totally expected, I certainly don't fault them for that, however there is so little REAL information coming out that their response, and your championing of them, remind me more of PRAVDA than anything real.

The Air Force cost estimates are totally silly. There's no way that this aircraft is going to cost less than a Rafael, to claim that it will relies on willful stupidity from the readers of those reports. The performance quotes are less than believable, but if they are great, it's doing what it's supposed to. However when the newer generation of VHF radars come on line all that stealth tech will go right out the window.

And the cycle will begin again.

P.S. The idea in war is to kill the enemy as quickly and cheaply as possible. The idea that you would expend a 18,000 bomb to kill someone on a regular basis is pretty ridiculous. That's a real good way to go broke. Oh look, we're broke.

No, the idea of war is to remove your enemies will to fight. That is the correct doctrine. Completely wiping out an enemy to the last man means that PR is going to be used to create other enemies over and over. We blew it in Iraq when we completely disbanded the Iraqi Military and wouldn't allow them to rejoin the new force. We now call them ISIS and ISIL.

Now about cost affective weapons systems. Okay, the F-22 and the B-2 are the best at what they do. But they cost enough that production ceased long before the projected numbers were reached. Even so, it was money well spent and keeps the US on top. Both are part of the weapons systems that operate in contested war zones. And both had you detractors harp on them as well. The B-2 and the F-22 are being used in Syria and Iraq right now. The day they can no longer do the job you will hear about then in combat.

Now, let's take a look at the cost of the 2016 F-35 versus the F-16 that Saudi Arabia just ordered from Lockheed. They are trying to save money over the F-15E which goes for about 110 million a copy. The ordered F-16 for Saudi is about 85 million a copy. It's heavier and in an air to air, it will lose to the F-16C or the F-15C. It's been dubbed as the poorman's F-35. The problem is, it's not stealthy at all.

If you haven't been following things, everyone is losing F-16s to ground to air. The grunts just get better every day. You seem to think that they are static. Trust me, in the last 40 years, there has been some mighty strong developments in the Ground to Air. Even the lowly Stinger can take out an AC from 10,000 feet.And there are a bunch of those in the bad guys hands left over from the 80s. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. It's getting downright unhealthy for low altitude these days. And for those that fly at 20K, there are the SAMS that have also made strides. If the Russians go ahead with the S-300 then it won't be healthy to go below 40,000 feet with anything other than a stealth bird. This is what we would be facing if (or is it when) we go to war with Iran. While we will dominate their AF's the Grunts are a different story.

Now, what would a new F-16 cost? Let's say that a totally equipped F-16C would cost right around 30 mil. Sounds like a deal. Next hear, USAF will be buying their F-35As for about 85 mil. When a flight of 2 F-35s can do the job of a squadron of F-16 (you will lose some of these to ground to air) and a squadron of A-10s (you will also lose some of these) And you won't lose a single F-35A then it's quite a bargain. You forget that in each A-10 or F-16 there resides a man in it. That man took something like a million dollars to train and 6 years.

The need is there. The AC to do the job is there. If it costs 3 times as much then so be it. Pilots have families.

 

[HenryBHough]

Apparently so do drones.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Daryl,

I was a FAC in the OA-37B and the A-10 as well as on the ground. I'm having a hard time following your position.

What are your credentials? What is your experience in CAS?

Were you present at the CLASSIFIED Green Flag debriefings you reference? If so, why are you posting the results here? Are you that interested in living at Fort Leavenworth for several years?

I did two tours as ground FAC in the early 70s. Well, until I started losing it. And I doubt you will understand why. The Ground is much different than the air. I retired after 20 years from the AF.

CAS is rarely done by the USN, Marines, USAF?
Say again, you're coming in garbled.

Nice post editing. The Navy trains less than any other branch. The Marines and the AF are the primary fast mover CAS flyers. Both are seeing the losses in the Middle East of the F-16s from Ground Attack. In a north of the border Vietnam, the A-10 would be in big trouble flying by itself. It would be cannon fodder for Migs and ground attack without topcap. Today, even with Topcap, the Ground attack birds are being hammered. If they can shoot down a F-16, they can just as easily shoot down an A-10.

An Army argument to keep the A-10? The A-10 is an Air Force asset and lives or dies by the Air Force budget whims-- arguments of the Army be damned.

It's not about what is best, it's political jockeying. The budget won't change. But the political players won't either.

Where does your font of expertise come from?

Not picking a fight. Just want to understand where you developed your position. Soon the F-35 may be the only game in town and it will have to perform CAS. Procedures will be in place by then for it to be as effective as it can be. If you are on the inside and already know these procedures and methods, why are you showing our hand here? An itching desire to be married to the guy with the most cigarettes?

Cheers,

I was in a Unit that went from the F-4E (slatted) to the F-15A. Talk about growing pains. Meanwhile, Hahn converted to the F-16 not long after. Can you guess when and where I was stationed at? The hints are there.

The F-15 had politicians playing the same game. They wanted us to stay with the F-4 which pretty well had all the bugs worked out. They said that the F-15 was far too expensive and not that much better. While they were right about the cost, they were wrong about the capability of the F-15. Even though it was the same company that made both, the parts came from different states and sources. The F-15 lives up to it's own.

The same thing happened with the F-22. It was slaughtered in the press as being way too expensive and not much better than an F-15. While it was teething, that was correct. Well, it's finished and it's teeth grew out. Like the F-15 versus the F-4, the F-22 versus the F-15 is about the same. The F-22 dwarfs any and all 4th gen fighters and it's over Iraq and Syria right now.

You are listening to Journalists on slow news days. Next year, the F-35A and B both go into service and production. If it goes like the ones that came before them then it should change what CAS is all about. The days of the A-37 FAC is gone and the days of the A-10 FAC is quickly coming to an end.

You are right, we are going to go with it. But it's passing the tests with flying colors in the last year. Does it need a gun? Don't look for the F-35A to get the gun working until 2017 but if you are low enough to use that gun, you are going to be seen. Internal standoffs do the same job with zero losses All the enemy sees is his troops buying the farm and their equipment going up in flames with nothing in sight causing it. War is not about killing enemies, it's about taking away their will to fight. You should already know this.

 

[williepete]

TACP, ALO or pilot?

 

[kimmyalan]

Let's rename it 'The Bush Mobile.'

 

[Daryl Hunt]

TACP, ALO or pilot?

By then I was a desk jockey. Sorry, never was a pilot. Never wanted to be one. But when I first went in, I ran sea level 5 min 10 second mile, could swim like a fish and had the physical conditioning to do anything required. I turned down training to be a Para Rescue because, like I said at the time, Those guys are real heroes and I ain't no hero. So I got roped into GFac instead. And we weren't attached to any ground forces. Read anything into that you like. I am sure you will.

What you remember from your AF days is long gone. Hell, I hated SAC with a passion and got my wish in 1991 when they got rid of it. AFTER I retired. I don't recognize the AF these days. It's all changed. But I do understand the absolute need for a decent CAS bird that survives. Many of my friends were Pilots and to lose any of them when it's not necessary is criminal.

As for the Drone that brought up drones, think of this. The man on the scene gives me confidence. The drone can't operate in contested areas like the manned bird can. I don't want to take away from the importance of the Drones and their Pilots but they are only good if you control the skies. This is why the F-16 is having losses. The only combat losses for the F-16 ever is from Ground Forces. Again, in every F-16 or A-10 is a human life.

Now, I'll let you go off on another tangent.

 

[williepete]

Sorry to go off topic. Thanks for your service. As a ground and air FAC, I have a slightly different take on the issue. No problems.

"What you remember from your AF days is long gone."
"I did two tours as ground FAC in the early 70s. Well, until I started losing it."

From what you write, I got out after you. You're a 70's guy. I got out in '96. (I still work with AD USAF and USN pilots).

Cheers

 

[Manonthestreet]

Who has been losing F-16s......and how many.......A-10 ever been shot down? Your argument is invalid. Show post where we were harping on F-22 or B-2....oooops

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Sorry to go off topic. Thanks for your service. As a ground and air FAC, I have a slightly different take on the issue. No problems.

"What you remember from your AF days is long gone."
"I did two tours as ground FAC in the early 70s. Well, until I started losing it."

From what you write, I got out after you. You're a 70's guy. I got out in '96. (I still work with AD USAF and USN pilots).

Cheers

Do you ever completely get out? Of course, the 70s was a wonderful time. I got to do things, go places and have experiences that only a few get to in their lifetime. Got to see the world through the back door and I got paid for it. But in the 80s, I don't know if it were me or the Military (probably both) that changed. For the next 10 years or so, it was just pure hell for this old pirate. They started locking up people that did what we did for fun.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Who has been losing F-16s......and how many.......A-10 ever been shot down? Your argument is invalid. Show post where we were harping on F-22 or B-2....oooops

The A-10 operates in uncontested space. The F-16 is operating in contested space. As to who is losing the F-16s? Try Israel, Yemen, Saudi Arabia just to name a few. ISIS(L) has some pretty nasty weapons provided by Iran for surface to air. The A-10 would last about 10 minutes in that environment. It's almost as bad as being a Tank Driver where everyone is out to kill you.

 

[westwall]

Who has been losing F-16s......and how many.......A-10 ever been shot down? Your argument is invalid. Show post where we were harping on F-22 or B-2....oooops

The A-10 operates in uncontested space. The F-16 is operating in contested space. As to who is losing the F-16s? Try Israel, Yemen, Saudi Arabia just to name a few. ISIS(L) has some pretty nasty weapons provided by Iran for surface to air. The A-10 would last about 10 minutes in that environment. It's almost as bad as being a Tank Driver where everyone is out to kill you.

It operates where?

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Who has been losing F-16s......and how many.......A-10 ever been shot down? Your argument is invalid. Show post where we were harping on F-22 or B-2....oooops

The A-10 operates in uncontested space. The F-16 is operating in contested space. As to who is losing the F-16s? Try Israel, Yemen, Saudi Arabia just to name a few. ISIS(L) has some pretty nasty weapons provided by Iran for surface to air. The A-10 would last about 10 minutes in that environment. It's almost as bad as being a Tank Driver where everyone is out to kill you.

It operates where?

Thank you for showing damaged A-10s. It could have been worse, much worse. This is all damage from ground troops. Not heavy AA or SAMs or even MANPADS. The F-16 and F-18 are operating in areas that are much better defended. The F-16 is being damaged and sometimes brought down by weapons provided by Iran or Russia. It's one thing to operate where you are going to get light ground fire but another to operate where everything is out to kill you and has the power to do it in one shot.

It's gotten too dangerous for an unsteathy CAS.

 

[westwall]

Who has been losing F-16s......and how many.......A-10 ever been shot down? Your argument is invalid. Show post where we were harping on F-22 or B-2....oooops

The A-10 operates in uncontested space. The F-16 is operating in contested space. As to who is losing the F-16s? Try Israel, Yemen, Saudi Arabia just to name a few. ISIS(L) has some pretty nasty weapons provided by Iran for surface to air. The A-10 would last about 10 minutes in that environment. It's almost as bad as being a Tank Driver where everyone is out to kill you.

It operates where?

Thank you for showing damaged A-10s. It could have been worse, much worse. This is all damage from ground troops. Not heavy AA or SAMs or even MANPADS. The F-16 and F-18 are operating in areas that are much better defended. The F-16 is being damaged and sometimes brought down by weapons provided by Iran or Russia. It's one thing to operate where you are going to get light ground fire but another to operate where everything is out to kill you and has the power to do it in one shot.

It's gotten too dangerous for an unsteathy CAS.

It's real hard to be stealthy when the eyball can see you. Blowpipe is an optically guided MANPAD. Good luck hiding from one of those. The A-10 can take a hit. The F-35 probably can't. Note I didn't say couldn't, I said probably. Lockheed usually makes good aircraft so we will have to wait and see what happens in combat. Here's the one that barbecued itself last year....