Explosives from Iran weakening security in Iraq, commander says

[Ruby]

I never bought that "jealous" shit and WMDs didn't make a difference to me one way or another. I'm just glad we stopped ignoring a crazy cult that was growing larger and killing Americans. A very good argument can still be made that invading Afghanistan AND Iraq have disrupted their priorities and sent other countries a damn good message. You don't just cruise around and kill Americans at will.

Why do you soppose that message will be the one they get? YOU dont seem to get it since they were obviously sending that same exact message to america.

 

[dilloduck]

Why do you soppose that message will be the one they get? YOU dont seem to get it since they were obviously sending that same exact message to america.

We were killing Saudis or Al qaeada ? Where and whatever for?

 

[Ruby]

We were killing Saudis or Al qaeada ? Where and whatever for?

Its US/western interferrence in the entire region really. Overthrowing govts as we have done, Support for Israel, Military presence in the region (bases), collusion with the saudi family in conflicts between factions in the region, bombings we have done, covert operations (political interferrence), economic strong arm tactics.

Reasons are obvious, resources of the area are somthing you can profit from and also gain power from and it matters little to the west that they arent ours to manipulate as we wish and we go forward in ways that deny the residents of the region to self determine and as a result, they suffer.

You may like characterizing the region as a "growing crazy cult" but the truth is its a region that is tired of being interferred with because the greedy want to control their resources. They are human beings just like us and want the same thing we all do, self determination.

You certainly have made my point though havent you, you are just violent reactionary and have no real idea on why they are so pissed off at us and you dont get any "message" from it, why do you think its all gonna work so differently when you support violent attacks.

 

[dilloduck]

Its US/western interferrence in the entire region really. Overthrowing govts as we have done, Support for Israel, Military presence in the region (bases), collusion with the saudi family in conflicts between factions in the region, bombings we have done, covert operations (political interferrence), economic strong arm tactics.

Reasons are obvious, resources of the area are somthing you can profit from and also gain power from and it matters little to the west that they arent ours to manipulate as we wish and we go forward in ways that deny the residents of the region to self determine and as a result, they suffer.

You may like characterizing the region as a "growing crazy cult" but the truth is its a region that is tired of being interferred with because the greedy want to control their resources. They are human beings just like us and want the same thing we all do, self determination.

So flying hijacked airliners into skyscrapers was the appropriate way to deal with this problem. Blowing up embassies is the natural solution to problems like this ? NO--they are no where NEAR like us. They don't sit around wasting time with dipolmatic efforts. They kill.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Your like a Step Mom I had for a while. During the height of the Cold War she insisted if we just destroyed all our nuclear weapons and pulled all our troops out of Europe the big peaceful bear that was the Soviet Union would do the same.

 

[maineman]

So flying hijacked airliners into skyscrapers was the appropriate way to deal with this problem. Blowing up embassies is the natural solution to problems like this ? NO--they are no where NEAR like us. They don't sit around wasting time with dipolmatic efforts. They kill.

Al Qaeda is not a nation-state. We have no reason to expect them to act like one.

The folks on the right vehemently claim that they are not racists about muslims/arabs, but nonetheless, they really do make pronouncements and support policies and actions that would appear that they embrace the "the only good raghead is a dead raghead" or "all ragheads are alike" point of view.

 

[dilloduck]

Al Qaeda is not a nation-state. We have no reason to expect them to act like one.

The folks on the right vehemently claim that they are not racists about muslims/arabs, but nonetheless, they really do make pronouncements and support policies and actions that would appear that they embrace the "the only good raghead is a dead raghead" or "all ragheads are alike" point of view.

Right---so you your task is to come up with a plan to stop a group of radicals (who are not a nation state) from continuing to kill Americans wherever they can to include NYC. In the mean time, Iran is working on obtaining nuclear weapons and drumming up support for the destruction of Israel and funding terrorism.
Your move.

 

[Ruby]

So flying hijacked airliners into skyscrapers was the appropriate way to deal with this problem. Blowing up embassies is the natural solution to problems like this ? NO--they are no where NEAR like us. They don't sit around wasting time with dipolmatic efforts. They kill.

Of course hijacking planes and blowing up embassies isnt a good solution which is exactly why invading nations and bombing others is ALSO NOT A GOOD SOLUTION.

They are very much just like us. They are also just as prone to react violently to violence.

Your statement is more of such a generalized one and it really borders into bigotry. You dont really see them as "human" in the same way you see your own neighbors yet they are JUST as human as you, and love their families JUST as much as you, and have many of the same exact desires from life as YOU. Its easier for you to picture them as some "crazy not quite human beings", impossible to relate to, impossible to talk to, incapable of rationality...thats EXACTLY how we portrayed the native americans and slaves. This is what helped us rationalize our oppression of those groups and the underlying REAL reasons they were our targets was they had somthing we wanted and we wanted to TAKE it from them.

 

[Ruby]

Your like a Step Mom I had for a while. During the height of the Cold War she insisted if we just destroyed all our nuclear weapons and pulled all our troops out of Europe the big peaceful bear that was the Soviet Union would do the same.

Nice characiture but solutions are not quite that simple and I am under no illusion that they are. But it is basic common sense that you shouldnt try to steal from people or inteferre with their right to determine their own lives and nation.

 

[dilloduck]

Of course hijacking planes and blowing up embassies isnt a good solution which is exactly why invading nations and bombing others is ALSO NOT A GOOD SOLUTION.

They are very much just like us. They are also just as prone to react violently to violence.

Your statement is more of such a generalized one and it really borders into bigotry. You dont really see them as "human" in the same way you see your own neighbors yet they are JUST as human as you, and love their families JUST as much as you, and have many of the same exact desires from life as YOU. Its easier for you to picture them as some "crazy not quite human beings", impossible to relate to, impossible to talk to, incapable of rationality...thats EXACTLY how we portrayed the native americans and slaves. This is what helped us rationalize our oppression of those groups and the underlying REAL reasons they were our targets was they had somthing we wanted and we wanted to TAKE it from them.

I am bigoted. Anyone who slashes another humans throat and then beheads them on video for all to see IS crazy. This is not merely some "picture" that I've conjured up. Nor is the fact that they are TOTALLY unwilling to approach anything diplomatically. It's the TRUTH. Arabs can walk down the streets of America without fear. Americans cannot do that in Iran or Iraq or Pakistan etc etc.

 

[onedomino]

Of course hijacking planes and blowing up embassies isnt a good solution which is exactly why invading nations and bombing others is ALSO NOT A GOOD SOLUTION.

They are very much just like us. They are also just as prone to react violently to violence.

Your statement is more of such a generalized one and it really borders into bigotry. You dont really see them as "human" in the same way you see your own neighbors yet they are JUST as human as you, and love their families JUST as much as you, and have many of the same exact desires from life as YOU. Its easier for you to picture them as some "crazy not quite human beings", impossible to relate to, impossible to talk to, incapable of rationality...thats EXACTLY how we portrayed the native americans and slaves. This is what helped us rationalize our oppression of those groups and the underlying REAL reasons they were our targets was they had somthing we wanted and we wanted to TAKE it from them.

"They are very much just like us." It's just one hideous hyperbolic statement after another with you. You should get on a plane and fly to the Northwest Territories of Pakistan and offer your good will and surrender to Bin Laden. No doubt you will be warmly received, since "since they are very much just like us."

 

[Ruby]

I am bigoted. Anyone who slashes another humans throat and then beheads them on video for all to see IS crazy. This is not merely some "picture" that I've conjured up. Nor is the fact that they are TOTALLY unwilling to approach anything diplomatically. It's the TRUTH. Arabs can walk down the streets of America without fear. Americans cannot do that in Iran or Iraq or Pakistan etc etc.

The person who beheads someone is AN INDIVIDUAL but you seem to ascribe the actions to an entire region/race/religion and thats where you head off down bigot road.

Iran was willing to talk, we said no. We also refuse to talk to Hamas, which is a democratically elected govt too! I thought we were trying to encourage democracy but made it very clear that only if you make the choices we tell you to! I guess we need to brush up on our comprehension of definitions.

Well NO ONE can walk around Iraq safely anymore but they could before. Americans can walk around safely in Iran but women will have to wear the hijab as is the law there so I wouldnt go there if you dont want to comply with that law. Pakistan you can also walk around safely, as safely as you can in america. Arabs are not free from attacks on american streets, americans arent free from attacks in america either!

You over-generalize alot and assume some truths that arent true at all. I will acknowldge there are many nations that are very very angry with america and our policy towards them, but that is not some irrational baseless anger and it dosent mean that you cant enter those countries with the same safety expectancy you would in many other nations.

 

[Ruby]

"They are very much just like us." It's just one hideous hyperbolic statement after another with you. You should get on a plane and fly to the Northwest Territories of Pakistan and offer your good will and surrender to Bin Laden. No doubt you will be warmly received, since "since they are very much just like us."

Offend your sense of bigotry and racism? LOL!

 

[maineman]

Right---so you your task is to come up with a plan to stop a group of radicals (who are not a nation state) from continuing to kill Americans wherever they can to include NYC. In the mean time, Iran is working on obtaining nuclear weapons and drumming up support for the destruction of Israel and funding terrorism.
Your move.

actually... I want you to tell me how 150K American troops in Iraq - and the half a trillion dollars/four years/30K dead and wounded we flushed down the shitter there are going to assist in furthering any plan that I, or anyone else may come up with.

 

[CSM]

You would be wrong, they wouldnt back down fast and the US would lose. We cant even win in Afghanistan!! We are losing horribly in Iraq as well. We are borrowing money to keep the wars up and are spinning out of control.

There is also another problem, how bout PROVING the allegations first and secondly explain why its ok for the US to interferre in Iraq but not Iraqs neighbor?

Because Iraq broke a CEASE FIRE agreement they had signed with the US. Willfully ignorant or did you just conveniently forget?

 

[maineman]

Because Iraq broke a CEASE FIRE agreement they had signed with the US. Willfully ignorant or did you just conveniently forget?

actually, I believe that the cease-fire agreement was made with the UN, and not the US.

wikipedia reaffirms my recollection:

On February 22, 1991, Iraq agreed to a Soviet-proposed cease-fire agreement. The agreement called for Iraq to withdraw troops to pre-invasion positions within three weeks following a total cease-fire, and called for monitoring of the cease-fire and withdrawal to be overseen by the UN Security Council.


so, on one - more technical - level, it would seem to me that, if anyone should send troops in to punish Iraq for violating a cease-fire, it ought to be the UNSC and not the USA.

on another - more pragmatic - level, do you really think that a technical violation of a ceasefire by a tinhorn dictator of a paper tiger arab country was a good reason for America to shift its focus from finding and destroying the folks who attacked us to delivering shock and awe on this country which had NOT attacked us and whose leader was, by our own secretary of state's admission, not a threat to us or even to his neighbors?

Do you really think that this ridiculous attempt to cram a jeffersonian multicultural democracy down the throats of the Iraqi people - at a cost of more than half a trillion dollars and over 30K dead and wounded Americans - is a wise use of our resources when the folks who attacked us are, by our OWN admission, as strong today as they were on 9/11?

Do you really think that pouring gasoline on a fire will eventually put the fire out if we just just pour a few more gallons? Is our "pride" so blind that we would strengthen our enemies rather than publicly admit that we had screwed up and then change course?

 

[CSM]

actually, I believe that the cease-fire agreement was made with the UN, and not the US.

wikipedia reaffirms my recollection:

On February 22, 1991, Iraq agreed to a Soviet-proposed cease-fire agreement. The agreement called for Iraq to withdraw troops to pre-invasion positions within three weeks following a total cease-fire, and called for monitoring of the cease-fire and withdrawal to be overseen by the UN Security Council.


so, on one - more technical - level, it would seem to me that, if anyone should send troops in to punish Iraq for violating a cease-fire, it ought to be the UNSC and not the USA. On a more technical level....it was US troops doing the 'eavy lifting in that case. I don't recall seeing too many blue helmets running aroung there.
on another - more pragmatic - level, do you really think that a technical violation of a ceasefire by a tinhorn dictator of a paper tiger arab country was a good reason for America to shift its focus from finding and destroying the folks who attacked us to delivering shock and awe on this country which had NOT attacked us and whose leader was, by our own secretary of state's admission, not a threat to us or even to his neighbors? Yes.

Do you really think that this ridiculous attempt to cram a jeffersonian multicultural democracy down the throats of the Iraqi people - at a cost of more than half a trillion dollars and over 30K dead and wounded Americans - is a wise use of our resources when the folks who attacked us are, by our OWN admission, as strong today as they were on 9/11? Yes.

Do you really think that pouring gasoline on a fire will eventually put the fire out if we just just pour a few more gallons? Is our "pride" so blind that we would strengthen our enemies rather than publicly admit that we had screwed up and then change course? Yes and no, respectively.

I dunno, I think firing missiles at US aircraft (whether or not they are enforcing a "UN" cease fire) is pretty serious stuff. I suppose that to some, it's ok for US pilots to be shot down as long as it is for some cause sponsored by the UN.

I dont buy the gasoline analogy.

I don't buy that "we" are strenghtening the enemy.

I wonder what would happen if the media and anti-war crowd in this country were as vocal against the terrorists and extremists as they are about the US what would happen. What if, every day, the terrorists were told "you cannot win"; "you are evil", and "the rest of the world hates you!" I wonder if it would be as demoralizing and divisive to them as it is to this country's citizens. The latter, imo, has done more to strengthen our enemy than shipments of money and guns. It ruly saddens me that there is a siginificant protion of our own population doing just that.

 

[maineman]

then this is yet another area where we must respectfully agree to disagee.

Not one US pilot flying CAP missions over Iraq was ever shot down my Iraqi AA fire. why not? because it was old and antiquated technology and our pilots knew it. Would you be concerned if Iraqis had hurled stones at our CAP aircraft? Or does the fact that they were quote- missiles - unquote - even though those "missiles" were known by our pilots to be ineffective, make it something different? What about 20MM AA fire that could not reach the altitude our pilots flew at?? would that be any different than throwing stones?

Whether or not you "buy" the fact that AQ is as strong today as it was on 9/11 before we flushed a half a trillion dollars, 30K dead and wounded Americans, and the goodwill of the world down the shitter is really irrelevant. President Bush's own CIA has stated as much. Are thy lying and what do YOU know that they do not?

 

[Chips Rafferty]

The person who beheads someone is AN INDIVIDUAL but you seem to ascribe the actions to an entire region/race/religion and thats where you head off down bigot road.

Iran was willing to talk, we said no. We also refuse to talk to Hamas, which is a democratically elected govt too! I thought we were trying to encourage democracy but made it very clear that only if you make the choices we tell you to! I guess we need to brush up on our comprehension of definitions.

Well NO ONE can walk around Iraq safely anymore but they could before. Americans can walk around safely in Iran but women will have to wear the hijab as is the law there so I wouldnt go there if you dont want to comply with that law. Pakistan you can also walk around safely, as safely as you can in america. Arabs are not free from attacks on american streets, americans arent free from attacks in america either!

You over-generalize alot and assume some truths that arent true at all. I will acknowldge there are many nations that are very very angry with america and our policy towards them, but that is not some irrational baseless anger and it dosent mean that you cant enter those countries with the same safety expectancy you would in many other nations.

You will NEVER get any of these narcissists to face reality, Ruby.

After all, “To err is human” – but these preening peacocks have been programmed to think they are super-human.

For these intrinsically piss weak Wizards of WASPdom to do so would mean coming out from behind the curtain of sham morality, and the imaginary martial primacy of the American male, that they have woven around themselves.

This can’t happen until their Calvinazi vicars cease using that soshallus quadroon, Christ, as a vapid ventriloquist's dummy to promote their white Massa’s militaristic consume-and-die capitalism.

If it ever happens, these latter-day Pharisees will see the have been oppressing and killing the very people their “colored” Christ preferred kicking around with.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

The person who beheads someone is AN INDIVIDUAL but you seem to ascribe the actions to an entire region/race/religion and thats where you head off down bigot road.

Iran was willing to talk, we said no. We also refuse to talk to Hamas, which is a democratically elected govt too! I thought we were trying to encourage democracy but made it very clear that only if you make the choices we tell you to! I guess we need to brush up on our comprehension of definitions.

Well NO ONE can walk around Iraq safely anymore but they could before. Americans can walk around safely in Iran but women will have to wear the hijab as is the law there so I wouldnt go there if you dont want to comply with that law. Pakistan you can also walk around safely, as safely as you can in america. Arabs are not free from attacks on american streets, americans arent free from attacks in america either!

You over-generalize alot and assume some truths that arent true at all. I will acknowldge there are many nations that are very very angry with america and our policy towards them, but that is not some irrational baseless anger and it dosent mean that you cant enter those countries with the same safety expectancy you would in many other nations.

Yup, no connection to the thousands of Muslim terrorists murdering fellow Muslims and infidels , they are all just single individuals with no common factor what so ever.

Please be so kind as to illuminate us with the massive attacks on Arabs and Muslims inside the US for BEING Muslim or Arab. Ohh wait, I know, the press and the Government are covering up all these senseless acts of terror by US citizens on other US citizens.

I suggest you wear " I am an American" T-Shirt and go visit Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iran or Saudia Arabia ohh and be sure to carry a Christian Bible with you and tell us IF you get back how safe those streets are.

And do call up the authorities in those countries and complain that some citizen flushed a bible down a toilet and tell us how fast they arrest the culprit and charge them with a Hate crime.

Go to one of those Countries and ask to build a Church and tell us what the results of THAT request was. While your there be sure to complain about the anti Christian cartoons in the papers and the TV programs that claim Jews steal Muslim babies to bleed dry for religious ceremonies. Get back to us on your results.

And do all this wearing a skirt and sleeveless blouse. ( I am assuming your female).