Explaining austerity to liberals:

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The real choice is austerity now or austerity later. But, the sooner you do it the less austerity required. The longer hooked on heroin you are the harder the rehabilatation.

Yes, another hit of heroin makes you feel that you're not really hooked, but in reality it just makes you more hooked and in need of harsher rehabilitation.

 

[DSGE]

I don't see any explanation anywhere...
I see a parallel being drawn between debt and heroin with absolutely no justification. Maybe I should start a thread where the only content is: "Debt is like exercise. The more you do it the longer you'll live. Don't do it at all and you'll die young and obese. And it's all too easy to stop exercising."

Do you see that argument by analogy is fallacious? How about a post with some actual substance. Maybe throw an actual argument in there?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

I don't see any explanation anywhere...
I see a parallel being drawn between debt and heroin with absolutely no justification. Maybe I should start a thread where the only content is: "Debt is like exercise. The more you do it the longer you'll live. Don't do it at all and you'll die young and obese. And it's all too easy to stop exercising."

Do you see that argument by analogy is fallacious? How about a post with some actual substance. Maybe throw an actual argument in there?

so whats the substantial difference between a liberal government hooked on spending and a junkie hooked on heroin??

 

[DSGE]

I don't see any explanation anywhere...
I see a parallel being drawn between debt and heroin with absolutely no justification. Maybe I should start a thread where the only content is: "Debt is like exercise. The more you do it the longer you'll live. Don't do it at all and you'll die young and obese. And it's all too easy to stop exercising."

Do you see that argument by analogy is fallacious? How about a post with some actual substance. Maybe throw an actual argument in there?

so whats the substantial difference between a liberal government hooked on spending and a junkie hooked on heroin??

What's the substantial difference between a liberal government hooked on spending and physical exercise? You see? Argument from analogy is garbage. You have to demonstrate that a one-to-one map exists between debt and heroin. But why bother doing that? Why not just argue against debt straight up? You could actually make a reasonable argument against high levels of debt or high deficits; instead you lazily constructed a false analogy. So try again.

 

[samjones]

I thought the saying was "debt is like a box of chocolates."

 

[California Girl]

While the analogy is somewhat disingenuous, the truth is that the core of the OP is right. We either bite the bullet now or later. The bullet will not go away. Since I am a believer in personal responsibility, I think we should do it now and get it over with for the next generation.

I guess the question is, do we love our children (I don't have any) and this country enough to take the hard road ourselves?

 

[jillian]

While the analogy is somewhat disingenuous, the truth is that the core of the OP is right. We either bite the bullet now or later. The bullet will not go away. Since I am a believer in personal responsibility, I think we should do it now and get it over with for the next generation.

I guess the question is, do we love our children (I don't have any) and this country enough to take the hard road ourselves?

i'm kind of wondering why the middle class should deal with "austerity" while taxes are cut for the people who can most afford to pay them.

and the o/p isn't "somewhat disingenuous".

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

What's the substantial difference between a liberal government hooked on spending and physical exercise?

Hooked implies addicted, obsessed, habitual and destructive while physical exercise implies none of that so is 100% different. See what happens when a liberal tries to think? Sorry

You are trying to change the subject because you know if you enter the debate, as a liberal, you will be crushed.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

i'm kind of wondering why the middle class should deal with "austerity" while taxes are cut for the people who can most afford to pay them.

Leave it to a brainwashed liberal to turn everything into violent class warfare. The top 1% pay 40 % of all Federal income taxes which is way too much already. You cant afford to have them pay more because they are the ones who create recession ending new jobs. New jobs don't come from the Girl Scouts

 

[jillian]

i'm kind of wondering why the middle class should deal with "austerity" while taxes are cut for the people who can most afford to pay them.

Leave it to a brainwashed liberal to turn everything into violent class warfare. The top 1% pay 40 % of all Federal income taxes which is way too much already. You cant afford to have them pay more because they are the ones who create recession ending new jobs. New jobs don't come from the Girl Scouts

the only one here who is brainwashed is you.

i have every right to ask why the government ran two wars on our credit card... for which it now wants to lay the bill on the middle class...while cutting taxes for their cronies. (which tax cut was only supposed to be temporaray, btw).

if they're so busy creating jobs, why did they crash the economy?

nutter.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

While the analogy is somewhat disingenuous, the truth is that the core of the OP is right. We either bite the bullet now or later. The bullet will not go away. Since I am a believer in personal responsibility, I think we should do it now and get it over with for the next generation.

I guess the question is, do we love our children (I don't have any) and this country enough to take the hard road ourselves?

Well put, only Jefferson could say it better:

The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, May 28, 1816


Or BO:The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents – #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back — $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That’s irresponsible. It’s unpatriotic.

 

[California Girl]

While the analogy is somewhat disingenuous, the truth is that the core of the OP is right. We either bite the bullet now or later. The bullet will not go away. Since I am a believer in personal responsibility, I think we should do it now and get it over with for the next generation.

I guess the question is, do we love our children (I don't have any) and this country enough to take the hard road ourselves?

i'm kind of wondering why the middle class should deal with "austerity" while taxes are cut for the people who can most afford to pay them.

and the o/p isn't "somewhat disingenuous".

"We" refers to the entire country - not any particular "class". We all got into this mess together, we can all get out of it together... but we won't while we allow politicians to keep pulling the wool over our eyes. Stop whining about 'class', and start working out how we ALL work our way out.

And, FYI... the middle class are the ones with the majority of personal debt. Personal. Debt. They are not some blameless bunch of dupes. They - and the wealthy - and the poor... we got here together.

 

[yidnar]

i'm kind of wondering why the middle class should deal with "austerity" while taxes are cut for the people who can most afford to pay them.

Leave it to a brainwashed liberal to turn everything into violent class warfare. The top 1% pay 40 % of all Federal income taxes which is way too much already. You cant afford to have them pay more because they are the ones who create recession ending new jobs. New jobs don't come from the Girl Scouts

the only one here who is brainwashed is you.

i have every right to ask why the government ran two wars on our credit card... for which it now wants to lay the bill on the middle class...while cutting taxes for their cronies. (which tax cut was only supposed to be temporaray, btw).

if they're so busy creating jobs, why did they crash the economy?

nutter.

obama has spent 10 times the money we spent on the 2 wars you are talking about !!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

if they're so busy creating jobs, why did they crash the economy?

actually it was a housing crash that was brought on by a liberal Federal government much of which was was organized to get people into homes that the Republican free market said they could not afford. Its been in all the papers!!

 

[jillian]

if they're so busy creating jobs, why did they crash the economy?

actually it was a housing crash that was brought on by a liberal Federal government much of which was was organized to get people into homes that the Republican free market said they could not afford. Its been in all the papers!!

"actually" no it wasn't. that was only part of it. there were a lot of factors involved.

my point was that trickle down economics is a hoax. even daddy bush knew it.

I'd also point out that if my family earns $200,000 a year and are salaried W-2 employees, we pay taxes at a higher rate than 1099 income earners and people who earn their incomes from passive income who earn the same amount.

justify that.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

"actually" no it wasn't. that was only part of it. there were a lot of factors involved.

Who can say with a straight face that liberal policiy to get people into homes that the Republican free market said they could not afford was not at the very heart of it?

my point was that trickle down economics is a hoax. even daddy bush knew it.

actually state-of-the art health care, for example, trickles down to the poorest Americans without regard for their ability to pay or their ability to contribute to the innovations that got us from the stone age to here.

How's that for trickle down? Do you want to give the poor who don't pay taxes, tax breaks so they will invent new health care innovations that will trickle up???

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

if they're so busy creating jobs, why did they crash the economy?

actually it was a housing crash that was brought on by a liberal Federal government much of which was was organized to get people into homes that the Republican free market said they could not afford. Its been in all the papers!!

"actually" no it wasn't. that was only part of it. there were a lot of factors involved.

my point was that trickle down economics is a hoax. even daddy bush knew it.

I'd also point out that if my family earns $200,000 a year and are salaried W-2 employees, we pay taxes at a higher rate than 1099 income earners and people who earn their incomes from passive income who earn the same amount.

justify that.

why???? what subject are you on????

 

[jillian]

Who can say with a straight face that liberal policiy to get people into homes that the Republican free market said they could not afford was not at the very heart of it?

there was nothing in the law, liberal or not, that required banks to abandon reasonable checks for credit worthiness. the law only prohibited redlining and discrimination.

you really should read the statute before you spew nonsense just to pepper your comments with the word "liberal".

actually state-of-the art health care, for example, trickles down to the poorest Americans without regard for their ability to pay or their ability to contribute to the innovations that got us from the stone age to here.

How's that for trickle down? Do you want to give the poor who don't pay taxes, tax breaks so they will invent new health care innovations that will trickle up???

that has nothing to do with the topic we were discussing.

reality check for the rightwing talking point machine: when rich people have more money, they do not spend it... they invest it. they do not create jobs with it. and they do not create jobs when tax policy rewards them for offshoring their workforce.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

there was nothing in the law, liberal or not, that required banks to abandon reasonable checks for credit worthiness. the law only prohibited redlining and discrimination.

And for 100 Years they did exactly that but then they were corrupted by Fanny Freddie Federal Reserve CRA FHA etc etc. Any industry that the liberal dumps tons of free money into will naturally get very very sloppy.



actually state-of-the art health care, for example, trickles down to the poorest Americans without regard for their ability to pay or their ability to contribute to the innovations that got us from the stone age to here.

How's that for trickle down? Do you want to give the poor who don't pay taxes, tax breaks so they will invent new health care innovations that will trickle up???[/quote]

that has nothing to do with the topic we were discussing.

dear, you said trickle down was a hoax; i gave you a concrete example of how it saves millions of lives per year

reality check for the rightwing talking point machine: when rich people have more money, they do not spend it...

the liberals recently used a luxury tax on yachts to combat how the rich spend. The liberal had to remove the tax because it made the rich stop buying yachts and that cost 10,000 jobs in the yacht making industry

they invest it.

100% of jobs come from investment. Jobs are a good thing. sorry

they do not create jobs with it. and they do not create jobs when tax policy rewards them for offshoring their workforce.

you invest in a store, for example, then you hire an employee. We have 120 million jobs and 100% of them came from investments.

 

[kiwiman127]

Have we seen austerity work yet?

I posted the following on another thread and no one would tackle this piece.

How Austerity Is Killing Europe

<snip>

Indeed, austerity economics has not worked in one single case in Europe in the last two years. When David Cameron&#8217;s government imposed a first round of harsh spending cuts in 2010, it utterly failed to revive the British economy as promised. To the contrary, it probably cut a budding recovery short. Unemployment and the deficit as a percent of GDP remained high. Some pro-Conservative observers I met at the time assured me that the Cameron team, led by George Osborne, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was pragmatic and would reverse course on austerity if it wasn&#8217;t working. Yet when growth basically ground to a halt in late 2011, the Cameron team only doubled down, making further cuts. We need more of the same medicine, they told their citizens, a record number of whom are unemployed. Britian is a hair&#8217;s breadth away from outright recession only two years after its last one.

In November, meanwhile, Spaniards voted out of office a once-popular Socialist government, in part for its failed austerity program of the past year. The Socialists had earlier presided over a boom and even built a budget surplus. But then the housing and banking crises struck and private Spanish banks ran amok. In response, in 2010 the Socialists sharply reversed an earlier stimulus policy, cut spending, and raised taxes to the tune of about 5 percent of GDP. Government debt is still not high in Spain, and interest rates have not risen the way they have in Italy. But economic growth stalled after these measures were implemented, because reduced public spending weakened the demand for goods and services, pure and simple. With Spain&#8217;s official unemployment rate now 21.5 percent, the Socialists lost the election badly&#8212;paradoxically pushing voters to elect a conservative leadership that is calling for more austerity. In Spain, recession is now inevitable.

And then there is Ireland. The recent experience of this once booming country should be deeply embarrassing to those who advocate austerity economics. For six months early last year, its national income started growing again after a couple of years of dramatic collapse following its own financial crisis. Ireland guaranteed all the debt of its over-aggressive failing banks to appease investors and then paid for it by cutting social spending sharply. Ireland&#8217;s leaders said with almost religious authority that this painful self-discipline was necessary to right the economy, and officials in Ireland and across Europe hailed the country&#8217;s brief rebound in 2011 as proof that it works. But then the Irish economy plunged in the third quarter of 2011 at its fastest rate ever. The upturn in the economy proved only temporary under the restraints of austerity economics. It may yet need another bailout.

How Austerity Is Killing Europe by Jeff Madrick | NYRblog | The New York Review of Books

Then there's; AUSTERITY IS NOT A SOLUTION:
http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/working_papers/working_papers_201-250/WP235.pdf

UK faces bleak 2012 and risk of recession's return, warns thinktank
UK faces bleak 2012 and risk of recession's return, warns thinktank | Business | The Guardian

Britain is in double-dip recession, warn economists
Britain is in double-dip recession, warn economists | UK austerity News | The Week UK

All of this resulted because the UK, Spain and Ireland cut too much government spending too fast. Facts are facts.