Ethics and The A-Bomb

[CurveLight]

Call me selfish, but if it saved even just one American life, I'd have dropped the A-Bomb myself. I am not asking for a pie-in-the-sky ethical debate.

I merely want to know, was it necessary or not? Had Japan surrendered BEFORE we bombed there?

RetiredGySgt says he can prove they did NOT, that he has source documents to back up his position. Well, is there any doubt that he does? Is there some question about these documents?

This is why there should have been a court proceeding. I am just mystified as to why none was ever conducted.

Http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/W...l/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/truman.html

I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs.


Apologists say it was necessary to use the bombs to get Japan to surrender unconditionally. That's bullshit because even after the bombs Japan did not give an unconditional surrender. After using the bombs it was not Japan that compromised on the conditions of surrender. It was the US. Think about it.

FDR SCANDAL PAGE from your scandal link
FDR Scandal Page

more hysterical reading
PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES
Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Halarious JFK SCANDAL PAGE
JFK Scandal Page with Assassination Notes

where's the one on Bush kid???? seems you don't read what you post. its obvious you deal in fiction and theories. im finished with you

You're quite the dumbass for ignoring what I said:

"I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs."

I don't know and don't care what else is on the site. The information for MAGIC is independently verifiable. Looks to me like you know you cannot defend your position so you seek a way out, however dishonest, rather than stand your ground.

 

[Madeline]

Dumb ass. Go argue your retarded lies somewhere else. Once again I have source documents of the JAPANESE Government and the US Government. The Japanese never offered to surrender. Further the Emperor surrendered unconditionally, WE made the choice to allow him to remain Emperor.

I still do not understand how such a HUGELY significant historical fact can be in doubt, this many years later.

CurveLight: what exactly about RetiredGySgt's documents makes them less than reliable in your view?

RetiredGySgt: why are CurveLight's documents unreliable?

Are you claiming they have been altered? They are not authentic? What?

You just CANNOT both be right on the FACTS. It's logically impossible.

He is playing with words. The Japanese made the following offer through the Soviet Union... They would cease hostilities and we would cease hostilities. They would evacuate all territory captured since Dec 7 1941 and we would evacuate all territory that was Japanese before Dec 7 1941. Further no other action would occur to Japan. No foreign presence in Japan, no reorganization of their Government, no dismantling of their military. We refused.

After the First Atomic Bomb they floated a similar plan and we again refused.

After the second Bomb the Emperor intervened in the Governments deliberations. The Army which controlled the Government absolutely REFUSED to surrender. Even after 2 Atomic Bombs. The Emperor over ruled them and ordered an immediate UNCONDITIONAL Surrender.

Curvelight is pretending that the offer to a cease of hostilities was a offer to surrender. He is further claiming that because we eventually allowed the Emperor to remain as a figure head in Japan we should not have dropped the bombs.

He is using the same intercepts as my source documents and claiming they do not clearly say what they say. Further I have in my source documents the actual meetings of the Japanese Government and what was and was not agreed to. Who wanted and did not want Peace. The Army ran the Government and was not going to surrender. Even after the Emperor agreed to surrender the Army staged a coup and tried to seize the voice recording where the Emperor ordered the surrender and prevent the Emperor from further addressing the Nation.

Well, CurveLight, what say you? If RetiredGySgt is right then the POV you and Quartermass have posted here seems less than completely intellectually honest to me.

If RetiredGySgt is correct on the FACTS, then as far as I am concerned, he is right on the ETHICS as well.

 

[Madeline]

Http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/W...l/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/truman.html

I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs.


Apologists say it was necessary to use the bombs to get Japan to surrender unconditionally. That's bullshit because even after the bombs Japan did not give an unconditional surrender. After using the bombs it was not Japan that compromised on the conditions of surrender. It was the US. Think about it.

FDR SCANDAL PAGE from your scandal link
FDR Scandal Page

more hysterical reading
PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES
Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Halarious JFK SCANDAL PAGE
JFK Scandal Page with Assassination Notes

where's the one on Bush kid???? seems you don't read what you post. its obvious you deal in fiction and theories. im finished with you

You're quite the dumbass for ignoring what I said:

"I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs."

I don't know and don't care what else is on the site. The information for MAGIC is independently verifiable. Looks to me like you know you cannot defend your position so you seek a way out, however dishonest, rather than stand your ground.

This business of flinging URLs around isn't getting us anywhere, CurveLight. WHAT exactly is defective about the documents relied on by RetiredGySgt and namvet? Why are THEY not good evidence of what transpired?

Are the doctored?

Are they incomplete?

Is there doubt about their authenticity?

 

[CurveLight]

Dumb ass. Go argue your retarded lies somewhere else. Once again I have source documents of the JAPANESE Government and the US Government. The Japanese never offered to surrender. Further the Emperor surrendered unconditionally, WE made the choice to allow him to remain Emperor.

I still do not understand how such a HUGELY significant historical fact can be in doubt, this many years later.

CurveLight: what exactly about RetiredGySgt's documents makes them less than reliable in your view?

RetiredGySgt: why are CurveLight's documents unreliable?

Are you claiming they have been altered? They are not authentic? What?

You just CANNOT both be right on the FACTS. It's logically impossible.

He is playing with words. The Japanese made the following offer through the Soviet Union... They would cease hostilities and we would cease hostilities. They would evacuate all territory captured since Dec 7 1941 and we would evacuate all territory that was Japanese before Dec 7 1941. Further no other action would occur to Japan. No foreign presence in Japan, no reorganization of their Government, no dismantling of their military. We refused.

After the First Atomic Bomb they floated a similar plan and we again refused.

After the second Bomb the Emperor intervened in the Governments deliberations. The Army which controlled the Government absolutely REFUSED to surrender. Even after 2 Atomic Bombs. The Emperor over ruled them and ordered an immediate UNCONDITIONAL Surrender.

Curvelight is pretending that the offer to a cease of hostilities was a offer to surrender. He is further claiming that because we eventually allowed the Emperor to remain as a figure head in Japan we should not have dropped the bombs.

He is using the same intercepts as my source documents and claiming they do not clearly say what they say. Further I have in my source documents the actual meetings of the Japanese Government and what was and was not agreed to. Who wanted and did not want Peace. The Army ran the Government and was not going to surrender. Even after the Emperor agreed to surrender the Army staged a coup and tried to seize the voice recording where the Emperor ordered the surrender and prevent the Emperor from further addressing the Nation.

I just posted the evidence Japan did not offer an unconditional surrender but you want to claim I'm ignorant of the facts? Lol...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

FDR SCANDAL PAGE from your scandal link
FDR Scandal Page

more hysterical reading
PEARL HARBOR MOTHER OF ALL CONSPIRACIES
Pearl Harbor - Mother of All Conspiracies

Halarious JFK SCANDAL PAGE
JFK Scandal Page with Assassination Notes

where's the one on Bush kid???? seems you don't read what you post. its obvious you deal in fiction and theories. im finished with you

You're quite the dumbass for ignoring what I said:

"I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs."

I don't know and don't care what else is on the site. The information for MAGIC is independently verifiable. Looks to me like you know you cannot defend your position so you seek a way out, however dishonest, rather than stand your ground.

This business of flinging URLs around isn't getting us anywhere, CurveLight. WHAT exactly is defective about the documents relied on by RetiredGySgt and namvet? Why are THEY not good evidence of what transpired?

Are the doctored?

Are they incomplete?

Is there doubt about their authenticity?

No to all those questions. He even uses magic intercepts for his claims. He is twisting the information and in some cases outright lying.

But what is the point if you refuse to even read the documents?

 

[Madeline]

You're quite the dumbass for ignoring what I said:

"I posted that link because it has a compilation from MAGIC that tells a different story from the Trumanesque Romanticism of using the bombs."

I don't know and don't care what else is on the site. The information for MAGIC is independently verifiable. Looks to me like you know you cannot defend your position so you seek a way out, however dishonest, rather than stand your ground.

This business of flinging URLs around isn't getting us anywhere, CurveLight. WHAT exactly is defective about the documents relied on by RetiredGySgt and namvet? Why are THEY not good evidence of what transpired?

Are the doctored?

Are they incomplete?

Is there doubt about their authenticity?

No to all those questions. He even uses magic intercepts for his claims. He is twisting the information and in some cases outright lying.

But what is the point if you refuse to even read the documents?

I have glanced through all the URLs, sir. Each seems to support the factual allegations the posters have claimed they would. But BOTH scenarios cannot have occurred, and at this point, I am kinda sorta thinking this is as far as I'm gonna get.

I'm heavily inclined to believe what you have posted, RetiredGySgt, but I still have some doubts. More or less the same place I was in when this thread started.

 

[CurveLight]

Dumb ass. Go argue your retarded lies somewhere else. Once again I have source documents of the JAPANESE Government and the US Government. The Japanese never offered to surrender. Further the Emperor surrendered unconditionally, WE made the choice to allow him to remain Emperor.

I still do not understand how such a HUGELY significant historical fact can be in doubt, this many years later.

CurveLight: what exactly about RetiredGySgt's documents makes them less than reliable in your view?

RetiredGySgt: why are CurveLight's documents unreliable?

Are you claiming they have been altered? They are not authentic? What?

You just CANNOT both be right on the FACTS. It's logically impossible.

He is playing with words. The Japanese made the following offer through the Soviet Union... They would cease hostilities and we would cease hostilities. They would evacuate all territory captured since Dec 7 1941 and we would evacuate all territory that was Japanese before Dec 7 1941. Further no other action would occur to Japan. No foreign presence in Japan, no reorganization of their Government, no dismantling of their military. We refused.

After the First Atomic Bomb they floated a similar plan and we again refused.

After the second Bomb the Emperor intervened in the Governments deliberations. The Army which controlled the Government absolutely REFUSED to surrender. Even after 2 Atomic Bombs. The Emperor over ruled them and ordered an immediate UNCONDITIONAL Surrender.

Curvelight is pretending that the offer to a cease of hostilities was a offer to surrender. He is further claiming that because we eventually allowed the Emperor to remain as a figure head in Japan we should not have dropped the bombs.

He is using the same intercepts as my source documents and claiming they do not clearly say what they say. Further I have in my source documents the actual meetings of the Japanese Government and what was and was not agreed to. Who wanted and did not want Peace. The Army ran the Government and was not going to surrender. Even after the Emperor agreed to surrender the Army staged a coup and tried to seize the voice recording where the Emperor ordered the surrender and prevent the Emperor from further addressing the Nation.

I just posted the evidence Japan did not offer an unconditional surrender but you want to claim I'm ignorant of the facts? Lol...

 

[namvet]

I don't give a damned if it was ethical or not. it ended the war and saved millions of AMERICAN lives. bottom line for me.

and i not going with this innocent civilian crap. they were working in factory's and making weapons to kill us.

the Japs murdered million of women and children in occupied countries. or do we let that slide??? they got what they deserved.

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." fleet Admiral Yamamoto after the Pearl Harbor attack

 

[CurveLight]

This business of flinging URLs around isn't getting us anywhere, CurveLight. WHAT exactly is defective about the documents relied on by RetiredGySgt and namvet? Why are THEY not good evidence of what transpired?

Are the doctored?

Are they incomplete?

Is there doubt about their authenticity?

No to all those questions. He even uses magic intercepts for his claims. He is twisting the information and in some cases outright lying.

But what is the point if you refuse to even read the documents?

I have glanced through all the URLs, sir. Each seems to support the factual allegations the posters have claimed they would. But BOTH scenarios cannot have occurred, and at this point, I am kinda sorta thinking this is as far as I'm gonna get.

I'm heavily inclined to believe what you have posted, RetiredGySgt, but I still have some doubts. More or less the same place I was in when this thread started.

Try it from a slightly different approach and ask this question:

What threat did Japan pose to the US in August 1945 that justified nuking two cities?

 

[namvet]

indeed. what real threat did they pose ????

[youtube]gdCe2wBeCiw[/youtube]​

can anyone explain where they got this technology???? how bout the one with his head stuck up his ass ???!!!!

 

[Madeline]

Other nations were working on developing the A-Bomb? But I thought the reason we executed Julius and Ethel Rosenburg was for telling that secret to the Soviets? I thought only the US knew how to make one, for a period of time anyway.

Am I wrong? I'm beginning to wonder if I know any US history.

 

[CurveLight]

indeed. what real threat did they pose ????

[youtube]gdCe2wBeCiw[/youtube]​

can anyone explain where they got this technology???? how bout the one with his head stuck up his ass ???!!!!

Since you've already admitted you have no interest in addressing the OP it appears your only purpose here is to flex internet muscle.....

 

[namvet]

its no secret they were making their own bomb

 

[CurveLight]

Other nations were working on developing the A-Bomb? But I thought the reason we executed Julius and Ethel Rosenburg was for telling that secret to the Soviets? I thought only the US knew how to make one, for a period of time anyway.

Am I wrong? I'm beginning to wonder if I know any US history.

This is a red herring. They know Japan posed no threat to the US in August 1945. Namvet already confessed he doesn't care if it was ethical or not. I respect his honesty on that. Takes balls to admit you applaud the slaughter of civilians in part because someone else slaughtered civilians.

 

[namvet]

Pacifist like bentlight always believe you can have a war without killing anyone.

he also believes this is moral and ethical since we didn't do it ???

A boy murdered by Japs with a butt of a rifle, because he did not take off his hat.

buried alive

 

[namvet]

Other nations were working on developing the A-Bomb? But I thought the reason we executed Julius and Ethel Rosenburg was for telling that secret to the Soviets? I thought only the US knew how to make one, for a period of time anyway.

Am I wrong? I'm beginning to wonder if I know any US history.

no your not. do your own thinking. draw your own conclusions. this event is all over the net. never let morons like CurveLight do your thinking for you.

 

[CurveLight]

This business of flinging URLs around isn't getting us anywhere, CurveLight. WHAT exactly is defective about the documents relied on by RetiredGySgt and namvet? Why are THEY not good evidence of what transpired?

Are the doctored?

Are they incomplete?

Is there doubt about their authenticity?

No to all those questions. He even uses magic intercepts for his claims. He is twisting the information and in some cases outright lying.

But what is the point if you refuse to even read the documents?

I have glanced through all the URLs, sir. Each seems to support the factual allegations the posters have claimed they would. But BOTH scenarios cannot have occurred, and at this point, I am kinda sorta thinking this is as far as I'm gonna get.

I'm heavily inclined to believe what you have posted, RetiredGySgt, but I still have some doubts. More or less the same place I was in when this thread started.

The info they are pointing to is an incomplete picture.

In many ways, what you are saying about both scenarios being impossible to co-exist is exactly what was taking place. There was the "official" position that the nukes were the only way to force japan to an unconditional surrender then there was the more factual position that japan was trying to surrender.

In both countries there was a power struggle between the military and civilian leadership, but their agendas were in role reversals. In Japan the civilian side was more apt to seeking peace than the military but in the US it was the military that was pushing for peace more than the civilian leadership under Truman.

In regards to your OP question about the "necessity" of the bombs, what does it tell you that every top US military leader has agreed that the bombs were not necessary?

 

[Samson]

Despite the Germans having already surrendered I think we should have dropped an A bomb on Berlin, or at least Hamburg, simply as a gesture of good will to the Japanese, to prove to them that Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a racist attack.

Meh......in the spirit of multiculturalism, we should have also dropped one on Nairobi, and Mexico City, and maybe an Alutian Island to pick off some eskimos.

 

[CurveLight]

Other nations were working on developing the A-Bomb? But I thought the reason we executed Julius and Ethel Rosenburg was for telling that secret to the Soviets? I thought only the US knew how to make one, for a period of time anyway.

Am I wrong? I'm beginning to wonder if I know any US history.

no your not. do your own thinking. draw your own conclusions. this event is all over the net. never let morons like CurveLight do your thinking for you.

Between the two of us, it was me that has proven that even after both bombs Japan did not give an unconditional surrender. So if a "moron" had to educate you on a basic historical fact, where does that place you?

 

[CurveLight]

The question of the bombs' role was not in trying to figure out how to end WW2. They were used to figure out how to start what became known as The Cold War.