Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

[Daryl Hunt]

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

 

[ScienceRocks]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

 

[william the wie]

I hope it works out

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I hope it works out

During WWII, there were quite an abundance of "Flying Sergeants" The AF was the first to require all pilots to be college grads and be commisioned. Today, there are quite a few Enlisted that are not only college grads but civilian pilots as well. With the shortage of pilots, this may fill the gap. In the way back machine, we used to fly C-130s over the Pacific and Atlantic. During that flight, there was generally a poker game in the back. I got my time sitting in the front. But since I was not a civilian pilot, I took my turn as the flight Engineer. The Copilot was a SSgt. The Nav was the regular Nav. He called out a course change and jumped out his seat when an arm came back to the auto pilot wheel with only 2 stripes on it. That 2 striper was not only a Mechanic, he was qualified on multi engined civilian birds including jets.

 

[Hossfly]

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

There have been approximately 3000 enlisted pilots in the US Army and Air Force from 1912 when PFC William Burge was the first certified enlisted Army pilot until 1957 when M/Sgt George Holmes retired. Enlisted men flew all types of aircraft including fighters. In '69-'70 I flew many times with Australian sergeants in CV-2 Caribous from my base in Ca Mau to Saigon and back.
Here's an article from Air Force Magazine I found.



Enlisted Pilots



When MSgt. George Holmes finally retired, it marked a milestone in US Air Force history. Holmes, at fifty-nine, was neither the oldest nor the longest-serving master sergeant, but something more distinctive. He was the last pilot in the enlisted ranks.

Holmes left in 1957, thirty-six years after taking flight training during the 1920s. Commissioned in World War II, he rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel, but reverted to master sergeant after the war. Holmes was among a handful of nonofficer pilots who transferred into the new, postwar Air Force.

When MSgt. Tom Rafferty died in a 1950 crash, Holmes became the sole enlisted pilot on active duty. Then there were none

Air Force Magazine

 

[Asclepias]

I hope it works out

Why wouldnt it? College doesnt make you a better pilot.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

Didn't you once train as a pilot in a bakery?

You'd take the bread from one corner and pilot in the other!

 

[FA_Q2]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

No Human or living thing can go to Mars at this time. The various types of Radiation in deep space will kill then in weeks. This was first noticed during the missions to the moon. just 3 days there and 3 back wasn't enough to threaten lives. But they experienced the radiation and particles never the less.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

No Human or living thing can go to Mars at this time. The various types of Radiation in deep space will kill then in weeks. This was first noticed during the missions to the moon. just 3 days there and 3 back wasn't enough to threaten lives. But they experienced the radiation and particles never the less.

Wrong thread.

 

[william the wie]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Also a great deal of luck is needed. Not many mustangs without at least a star medal or a purple heart. Also in the Air Force (E-9s) effectively are officers. Navy chiefs (E7+) are nearly as powerful, which makes going officer less attractive.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Also a great deal of luck is needed. Not many mustangs without at least a star medal or a purple heart. Also in the Air Force (E-9s) effectively are officers. Navy chiefs (E7+) are nearly as powerful, which makes going officer less attractive.

Anyone E-4 and above is considered a non-commissioned officer for a reason.

How is luck required?

My son was an E-5, my son-in-law an E-6, in the Army and I was an E-4 in the Navy. I finished at O-4 and my daughter will be putting on Army O-2 in February.

Were we just luckier than the rest?

In the Navy, "Mustangs" are very common. I cannot count how many prior enlisted I have served under.

The Navy also has warrant officers, which is something the Army does well also.

The Navy has Limited Duty Officers (LDOs) who are technical experts like the warrants but can achieve commissioned officer ranks. Most of my Chief Engineers were LDOs and did not have college degrees. In fact, through a curious set of circumstances, I served as a Main Propulsion Assistant to two Chief Engineers that I outranked!

My nephew is a former Navy E-5 who is now a Washington National Guard Sergeant. He is training as a drone pilot.

 

[william the wie]

A large percentage of commissions from the ranks, non-USN, are for valor and oddball cases like a friend of mine who put in for demotion to enlisted in order to become a PJ in the Air Force way back when officers couldn't be SAR ground forces. But an off topic question since chiefs of staff tend to beat general staffs and smaller forces like the coasties and marines are better run what is the hang-up in getting to better organized force, budget constraints?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

A large percentage of commissions from the ranks, non-USN, are for valor and oddball cases like a friend of mine who put in for demotion to enlisted in order to become a PJ in the Air Force way back when officers couldn't be SAR ground forces. But an off topic question since chiefs of staff tend to beat general staffs and smaller forces like the coasties and marines are better run what is the hang-up in getting to better organized force, budget constraints?

Maybe in the Chair Force, but I have a relatively revealing story about that. The Chair Force has too many officers. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians does not work well. When I was in the Navy, my girlfriend's brother was an Air Force Communications Officer. He had a degree in electrical engineering and was one of the smartest people I have ever met. I once asked him to describe his duties. The longer he talked, the more I laughed. He described his duties to me as being the exact same thing that we expect of a Navy Radioman Seaman (E-3). He was a Captain.

 

[FA_Q2]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Officers may progress because of merit but there are artificial barriers between the two sides of the service. There are also problems with having a 2 year O-2 technically outrank a 20 year E-9. I see no reason whatsoever to divide officer ranks from enlisted ones.

 

[william the wie]

A large percentage of commissions from the ranks, non-USN, are for valor and oddball cases like a friend of mine who put in for demotion to enlisted in order to become a PJ in the Air Force way back when officers couldn't be SAR ground forces. But an off topic question since chiefs of staff tend to beat general staffs and smaller forces like the coasties and marines are better run what is the hang-up in getting to better organized force, budget constraints?

Maybe in the Chair Force, but I have a relatively revealing story about that. The Chair Force has too many officers. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians does not work well. When I was in the Navy, my girlfriend's brother was an Air Force Communications Officer. He had a degree in electrical engineering and was one of the smartest people I have ever met. I once asked him to describe his duties. The longer he talked, the more I laughed. He described his duties to me as being the exact same thing that we expect of a Navy Radioman Seaman (E-3). He was a Captain.

Yeah, I suspect that everybody of every rank, at least in the navy leans toward the organization chart of "Starship Troopers". Competent leadership is rare. My division PO on the Fido was also my duty section PO so when he came in while I was getting a compartment ready for inspection and screamed I was on restriction I broke down in to laughter because it was our duty night. he ran out of the compartment and a little later my chief came in to find out why I had laughed at his second in command. I told him why. He got a strange expression on his face and he excused himself. The time in service restraints are fine but the lack of non-line positions in enlisted ranks is an unsolved problem.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

Second, you don't think officers progress because of merit? Just getting into an officer program is extremely difficult.

Third, as an enlisted man who rose to become an officer, I find your comments very telling. Also, those senior officers often have one or two Master's degrees or a doctorate.

Lastly, you sound just a bit jealous. You sound like someone without the drive or education to make that that transition.

Officers may progress because of merit but there are artificial barriers between the two sides of the service. There are also problems with having a 2 year O-2 technically outrank a 20 year E-9. I see no reason whatsoever to divide officer ranks from enlisted ones.

That's because you apparently do not understand the difference. When I was an O-2, I had two E-8s that worked for me. They were some of the greatest men you would ever want to meet. However, we had different jobs. They were technicians that made the equipment work. I had to to know how to run it, and what they needed to fix it, but I also had to know how the drive the ship, learn all the weapons and radar systems, how to handle boats, and a laundry list of things they did not have to do. That is why I "outranked" them, but they made more money than I did and I would never question their expertise on anything in their specialty.

My high school ROTC Colonel gave me some advice that I have passed on to a number of junior officers, including my own daughter. He told me that as a junior officer, I should find my senior enlisted Chief, Sergeant etc., depending on the service, walk up to them and grab them by the wrist and place their arm around my shoulders, and stay right there, doing whatever they said. When I asked him when I could leave and make decisions for myself, he said, they will let you know.

Ironically, my daughter was talking to her platoon sergeant one night when I called, getting to know each other and I asked if she had done what I told her. She said she would do it right then, so I listened as she explained to her Sergeant what she needed him to do. When she finished, he agreed and asked to speak to me on the phone. He told me that was the best advice he had ever heard of being given to a junior officer. I told him it worked for me, and I knew it would work for her, and I told him where I got it. He trained her well, because she is now "hell on wheels" and one of the top junior officers in her Cavalry squadron.

There is a major difference in officer and enlisted, and the reasons are justified.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Good. The military should have removed the officer core a LONG damn time ago. It is an antiquated concept.

People should progress because of merit, not because they belong to the right club. Considering that a degree has become a requirement to become a SNCO, there really is no difference from the upper enlisted ranks and the officer core other than the upper enlisted ranks had to put their time in.

First, you should realize that it is spelled "corps", not "core".

.

First sign of a fake is the Spell Correction Nazi.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

No Human or living thing can go to Mars at this time. The various types of Radiation in deep space will kill then in weeks. This was first noticed during the missions to the moon. just 3 days there and 3 back wasn't enough to threaten lives. But they experienced the radiation and particles never the less.

Wrong thread.

Be quiet. The Adults are talking.