England has new Doner Laws. They have lost control

[Meister]

Oh. And. I've always gotten out of jury duty. Anyone stupid enough to not get out of jury duty is too stupid to be a juror. Do you really want your fate decided by someone who couldn't get out of jury service.

Oh, yeah....I've always gotten out of it also. I always told them that I believe in our judicial system and LEO's and if the defendant is this far along he has to be guilty.
Having said that, I feel that my body, alive or dead is mine and God's alone. Keep their mitts off of me unless I say otherwise.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Oh. And. I've always gotten out of jury duty. Anyone stupid enough to not get out of jury duty is too stupid to be a juror. Do you really want your fate decided by someone who couldn't get out of jury service.

Oh, yeah....I've always gotten out of it also. I always told them that I believe in our judicial system and LEO's and if the defendant is this far along he has to be guilty.
Having said that, I feel that my body, alive or dead is mine and God's alone. Keep their mitts off of me unless I say otherwise.

Good for you.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's not about at the moment of death it passing to ownership of the government. It's not like the govt is going to take your body and do with it what it likes.

It's going to be other individuals who benefit from it.

Society is going to benefit. Or have we become so selfish now that we couldn't give a stuff about the society we are in?

We exist to serve the collective? Is that what you mean? Is there an obligation to serve society by maintaining those organs? Should it be illegal to live an unhealthy lifestyle? How about a plan to harvest healthy organs before some old person wears them out? Why should a sedentary 50 year old get to keep his perfectly healthy heart when 30 year old could be playing with his children? Why be so selfish?

Right, take something simple and move it to its maximum. What does this have to do with what we're talking about? Oh, nothing.

I didn't say we exist to serve the collective. I said within society there are things that we do in order to make the collective stronger.

We pay taxes. We do jury service. Serve in the military when called upon.

I mean, how could you take conscription to it's maximum? I'm sure you could try. Doesn't mean it's happened.

Why should anyone go into the military conscripted? Seriously, isn't it bad of the government to do so? WW2, what a bunch of fuckers that govt was for conscripting people and making them risk their LIVES for the common good.

Are you saying that in the event of such a war again, you'd be opposed to conscription?

I am against the collective! You have a hive mind! Poor thing. No I would not do a single thing to make the collective stronger. There is no such thing as the common good. While I would fight against a common enemy, I would do it as a lone predator. I do not play on teams.

Society should have absolutely no claim on an individual's property including their bodies. Die at home and make sure everyone waits a good hour before they call anyone.

How did we come to this? Really. We used to be such a proud people. How did this happen to the British! It's grotesque.

You're against the collective? You're an anarchist. Right.....

So, in the event that China declares war on the US, fuck it, I'm not fighting, now one should fight to defend their land.

That's quite sad.

Why don't you go live a hermit life? You know the internet is only possible with the will of the collective, right? That you have a computer is because of the strength of the collective. So maybe you should stop using anything and everything that comes from the collective.

Roads, infrastructure, electricity from power stations, everything. Go be a hermit.

You can't buy anything? You can't haul your ass up and travel?

In reality, if China declared war on us, and killed democrats I would not much care. More power to them.

Don't be a Borg. You really are capable of independence. You don't need to devote your life and indeed your very corpus to others who would rather you died and they fed on your guts.

Right, like China would invade the US and only kill Democrats.

What kind of fucking fantasy world do you live in.

Once you're dead, who gives a fuck what happens to your body? Oh, wait, the people who might live because of it.

 

[Tilly]

Democrats have been trying to do the same thing here for years. I'd have "not a donor " tattooed on my arm.

You’d have to hope that would be good enough in the U.K. as you’d probably be astonished at the scale of the almighty c**k ups the NHS has managed regarding organ donation.

 

[Tilly]

Democrats have been trying to do the same thing here for years. I'd have "not a donor " tattooed on my arm.

Why would you not want to help someone in need ? In a way you live on through somebody else. many grieving relatives have taken some comfort from this.
It is already working well in civilised Wales. The number of lives saved is up and loved ones are not faced with difficult decisions when they are at their most vulnerable.

I already proved to you in your thread on this subject that you abandoned, the difference it’s made in Wales is absolutley negligible.

And in Many other countries including S American ones it’s led to fewer organ donations as nobody likes the idea that the gvmnt can harvest your organs, even if you opt out because, as is well known in the U.K. (which I also proved to you) accurate record keeping is an alien concept.

Places where real improvements have been made admit it was due to better campaigns and infrastructure projects.

We of course are too lazy to go down that route and just declare ‘your organs belong to the state’ - even if you opt out as we are notoriously bad at data management etc.

Hell, we might even sell them to the highest bidder - they don’t even have to be from the U.K.

 

[Tilly]

Democrats have been trying to do the same thing here for years. I'd have "not a donor " tattooed on my arm.

Why would you not want to help someone in need ? In a way you live on through somebody else. many grieving relatives have taken some comfort from this.
It is already working well in civilised Wales. The number of lives saved is up and loved ones are not faced with difficult decisions when they are at their most vulnerable.

Live on through someone else? Isnt that what jeffrey dahmer used to say?

'I could feel his heart:' Organ donor families bond with recipients after transplants - NBC News

Its life affirming,the sign of a society that works.

“When I hugged her, I could feel his heart,” Wagner recalls. “I could feel it pounding. It was hard to let go.”

IDK i just find that shit weird. PErhaps, im just not as emotional as some.

When we brought it in it was made very clear that you could opt out. I thought about it for a bit and decided to go with it. Im not keen to give up my bits but if they can give someone life then I am up for that. And it means my wife or kids arent being pestered in the waiting room as well.
I dont know what the argument is against it.

You only opted in as you know your ‘bits’ are too pickled from your cooking sherry habit for anyone to want them, eh Tams?

 

[Tilly]

This is what happens when health care becomes a government responsibility. People become so much cattle.

I cant understand why you would denigrate such a marvelous gesture.

The same way I denigrate many other "marvelous gestures" that are, nonetheless, based on really bad legal premises. Government shouldn't be in the business of deciding what we do with our body parts. People are not the property of the state. It's supposed to be the other way around.

Bingo!
And the NHS is so utterly incompetent, whether you opt in or opt out, they might just take them anyway!

Hundreds of thousands of people have been caught up in an astonishing NHS blunder that saw organs being taken from dead patients and used without their consent.


Donors who expressly stated they did not want certain body parts taken after their death had their details changed so their records showed any of their organs could be removed.

Now more than 21 bereaved families will be contacted by health officials to be told the disturbing news that tissue was mistakenly taken from their loved ones.

The error, which affected 800,000 people, happened when details concerning the body parts that donors do not want to be removed was deleted from the NHS Organ Donor Register....

I will no longer be a donor, and neither will my better half.

 

[Tilly]

I was looking around the Europe for News and found that England has new laws that take away your right to NOT donate your organs.
The UK government are planning to make all citizens organ donors by default, without seeking their explicit permission.

Theresa May’s cabinet will introduce reformations to organ ‘donation’ laws which they say will increase the availability or organs for transplant by 700 per year, according to the BBC.


They will do this by effectively stripping UK citizens’ right to decide the fate of their own organs after they die, unless they specifically opt-out of the controversial new scheme.

Breitbart.com reports: The legislation is expected to be brought before the House of Commons when MPs return from recess in Autumn, and if Parliament approves the organ donation law, it will come into effect in England by Spring 2020.

Currently, Wales already operates such a system, Scotland is looking to introduce a similar scheme, and Northern Ireland is also considering it.

The law will mean that unless a person has expressed a wish to not donate their organs, doctors will presume the dead person is a donor.

There will be exceptions — children under 18, those with diminished mental capabilities, and foreigners who have been in the country less than 12 months — and relatives can still override the ‘presumed consent’, if the ‘donor’ has relatives in the first place to object.


Those who do want to opt out will be able to do so by using a National Health Service (NHS) app to be launched at the end of the year.

However, medical ethicist Dr Piers Benn raised several issues arising from the Government legally changing all Britons to presumed organ ‘donors’, saying that it may leave some people feeling “cheated” and “uncomfortable” with what has hitherto been treated as a “gift”.

Dr Benn said the current system respected that “you know what you’re doing and you’re doing it because you want to save someone’s life”, he told Sky News on Sunday.

“The problem with opt-outs is that — while it does save lives — people may not be aware that that is the default assumption. so people will be ‘donating’ their organs without knowing they are doing that.”

Asked by the news anchor whether it would give doctors licence to take your organs, the medical ethicist said: “Sometimes if there is no known wish a doctor can approach relatives and some relatives decide not to donate.

“But the issue really is how do we weigh up the number of lives saved with the need to respect fully the consent of the person who has just died to what happens to their organs.”

Recognising that the 700 additional organs would be available every year under the new system by virtue of being taken by the deceased who may not have expressed a wish to donate when alive, Dr Benn observed that “There is something lost [in this system].

“I don’t say this solves the issue completely as it removes that you know what you’re doing and you’re giving.

“After all, no one has an obligation to save strangers’ lives.”

Asked whether it would make people feel that the government is presuming ownership over there body, the medical ethicist reiterated that you can opt out — but that it was down to a person reading the “small print”.

“You can opt out but you have to be pretty savvy to do so. Of course, the reason why the government have shifted from the opt-in to the opt-out position is to increase donations — which is a good thing, but done in a way which is at risk of being done by slight of hand.”

I wonder if these laws are active in Canada.?

It’s completely fair and logical for the English government to demand your organs upon your death. When the citizenship accepts a universal healthcare system they are no longer responsible or in control of their own body, even after they are dead.

Nobody is demanding. You can opt out if you feel strongly about it. Its working well all over the world.

It isn’t working well all over the world, nor even in your backwater. Quit lying.

 

[Tilly]

There are a million and one 'easy' fixes that we could force on society. If only everyone agreed. But they don't.

Well you can agree to save lives or disagree and get cremated in all your glory. It doesnt seem to be a difficult decision.

Then why does the government need to make it for you?

It doesnt.

Yes, it does. As you point out, you can wrestle the decision away from them. If you even know about it, or if you have time to do whatever hoop-jumping is necessary to "opt out". But the proposal is to have government make that decision for you by default.

Why should you benefit from organ donation when you refuse to be a part of the scheme ?

I shouldn't. If that's your beef, pass laws to make sure I can't.

Opting out is very straightforward.
No, I do not want to donate

What about your family and friends. Wouldnt you want to see them get an organ transplant if they were dying ?

Opting out is only straightforward in a health care system that can keep accurate up to date records and manage data.
The NHS has proven over and over again it is light years away from such a position, therefore they have no right to behave as though they own our bodies unless we say otherwise.

 

[Tilly]

Makes you wonder just how hard the hospitals will try and save you when they are salivating over some of those rare blood type organs you're sporting.

It isnt America. The NHS has no profit in taking your organs. The surgeon who takes them wont even know the lucky recipient.

The NHS has been found SELLING organs to non U.K. residents.
Another of the links I posted for you on the thread you decided to abandon.

 

[Tilly]

What's the penalty for mistakes? The opt out isn't discovered until after a successful transplant. If it isn't the immediate removal of the organ and disposal with the remains this is nothing but organ theft.

There have been in excess of 800000 NHS organ donation ‘mistakes’ to date.
They are unable to keep accurate records. Just recently thousands of patients were simply removed from GP registers without their knowledge.
They missed screening for cancer etc and some of them died as a result.

 

[Tilly]

This is what happens when health care becomes a government responsibility. People become so much cattle.

I cant understand why you would denigrate such a marvelous gesture.

It's a marvelous gesture if done voluntarily. Otherwise it's theft. You do know these organs are taken from living people.

It is voluntary because you can opt out. As Bowie sang "We can be Heroes".

The default is opt in. Opting out won't even last. Too many people might opt out.

Once the government is fully in control of organ donation each individual will be responsible for maintaining those government owned bodies on a condition for reuse.

The same people who insist that abortion is a personal decision is quite happy to turn their bodies over to the government.

If people want to opt out then they have that right. But those who dont opt out are saving you and your family and friends.
You must see that as geenerally a good thing.
The evidence is that people dont opt out though. They like the idea of being a hero.

No that isn’t the evidence.

 

[Tilly]

Makes you wonder just how hard the hospitals will try and save you when they are salivating over some of those rare blood type organs you're sporting.

It isnt America. The NHS has no profit in taking your organs. The surgeon who takes them wont even know the lucky recipient.

But, there will be a lucky recipient on the list.

Well that is kinda the point of organ donation.

Well, yeah, it is. But, I want to make sure they make every attempt to save me first. That may not be the case in certain instances.

Thats a big accusation. In the US I can see how there is profit in doing this. Have there been any scandals ?

There have been numerous scandals HERE yet you are again pointing your finger at the US! Amazing.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The problem is, when there is an error and organs are harvested from a non donor there is no penalty. Strip the surgeon of his license and remove the stolen organ to be disposed of in the same manner as the remains. Then such mistakes will stop.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

We exist to serve the collective? Is that what you mean? Is there an obligation to serve society by maintaining those organs? Should it be illegal to live an unhealthy lifestyle? How about a plan to harvest healthy organs before some old person wears them out? Why should a sedentary 50 year old get to keep his perfectly healthy heart when 30 year old could be playing with his children? Why be so selfish?

Right, take something simple and move it to its maximum. What does this have to do with what we're talking about? Oh, nothing.

I didn't say we exist to serve the collective. I said within society there are things that we do in order to make the collective stronger.

We pay taxes. We do jury service. Serve in the military when called upon.

I mean, how could you take conscription to it's maximum? I'm sure you could try. Doesn't mean it's happened.

Why should anyone go into the military conscripted? Seriously, isn't it bad of the government to do so? WW2, what a bunch of fuckers that govt was for conscripting people and making them risk their LIVES for the common good.

Are you saying that in the event of such a war again, you'd be opposed to conscription?

I am against the collective! You have a hive mind! Poor thing. No I would not do a single thing to make the collective stronger. There is no such thing as the common good. While I would fight against a common enemy, I would do it as a lone predator. I do not play on teams.

Society should have absolutely no claim on an individual's property including their bodies. Die at home and make sure everyone waits a good hour before they call anyone.

How did we come to this? Really. We used to be such a proud people. How did this happen to the British! It's grotesque.

You're against the collective? You're an anarchist. Right.....

So, in the event that China declares war on the US, fuck it, I'm not fighting, now one should fight to defend their land.

That's quite sad.

Why don't you go live a hermit life? You know the internet is only possible with the will of the collective, right? That you have a computer is because of the strength of the collective. So maybe you should stop using anything and everything that comes from the collective.

Roads, infrastructure, electricity from power stations, everything. Go be a hermit.

You can't buy anything? You can't haul your ass up and travel?

In reality, if China declared war on us, and killed democrats I would not much care. More power to them.

Don't be a Borg. You really are capable of independence. You don't need to devote your life and indeed your very corpus to others who would rather you died and they fed on your guts.

Right, like China would invade the US and only kill Democrats.

What kind of fucking fantasy world do you live in.

Once you're dead, who gives a fuck what happens to your body? Oh, wait, the people who might live because of it.

As to those people, l owe nothing.

 

[Tilly]

The problem is, when there is an error and organs are harvested from a non donor there is no penalty. Strip the surgeon of his license and remove the stolen organ to be disposed of in the same manner as the remains. Then such mistakes will stop.

Yep, no penalty - just a ‘sorry’ and absolutely every negligent act is now a ‘systems failure’ - so no accountability.

 

[Dekster]

I plan on destroying all mine before the end to the point nobody in their right mind would want one of the bastards.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Right, take something simple and move it to its maximum. What does this have to do with what we're talking about? Oh, nothing.

I didn't say we exist to serve the collective. I said within society there are things that we do in order to make the collective stronger.

We pay taxes. We do jury service. Serve in the military when called upon.

I mean, how could you take conscription to it's maximum? I'm sure you could try. Doesn't mean it's happened.

Why should anyone go into the military conscripted? Seriously, isn't it bad of the government to do so? WW2, what a bunch of fuckers that govt was for conscripting people and making them risk their LIVES for the common good.

Are you saying that in the event of such a war again, you'd be opposed to conscription?

I am against the collective! You have a hive mind! Poor thing. No I would not do a single thing to make the collective stronger. There is no such thing as the common good. While I would fight against a common enemy, I would do it as a lone predator. I do not play on teams.

Society should have absolutely no claim on an individual's property including their bodies. Die at home and make sure everyone waits a good hour before they call anyone.

How did we come to this? Really. We used to be such a proud people. How did this happen to the British! It's grotesque.

You're against the collective? You're an anarchist. Right.....

So, in the event that China declares war on the US, fuck it, I'm not fighting, now one should fight to defend their land.

That's quite sad.

Why don't you go live a hermit life? You know the internet is only possible with the will of the collective, right? That you have a computer is because of the strength of the collective. So maybe you should stop using anything and everything that comes from the collective.

Roads, infrastructure, electricity from power stations, everything. Go be a hermit.

You can't buy anything? You can't haul your ass up and travel?

In reality, if China declared war on us, and killed democrats I would not much care. More power to them.

Don't be a Borg. You really are capable of independence. You don't need to devote your life and indeed your very corpus to others who would rather you died and they fed on your guts.

Right, like China would invade the US and only kill Democrats.

What kind of fucking fantasy world do you live in.

Once you're dead, who gives a fuck what happens to your body? Oh, wait, the people who might live because of it.

As to those people, l owe nothing.

So you think you owe nothing to anyone?

Had you been born in Somalia, your life would be almost the same.

The Founding Fathers, why did they bother fighting the British. They could just have said "I don't owe anyone anything, fuck fighting".

 

[Gracie]

The problem I see with this is crooked doctors being PAID to take an organ for some rich person. Corruption. And we know it can and will happen. So poor Jane Doe is not dead..yet. But her kidney is needed by Lord or Lady Whomever..and their pockets are deep. So doctor makes sure Jane dies so the part can be sold.

 

[dblack]

This particular issue is relatively benign. But it does highlight a more general problem we face when socializing services like health care - it puts government in the position of making more and more of our personal decisions for us.