End Times?

[HGROKIT]

Old Testament prophecy regarding the end times. Any of this sound familiar to anyone? There are more specifs in Revelation, but in the context of current events, this is most interesting.

Daniel 11:21-45
21 "That ruler will be followed by a very cruel and hated man, who will not have the honor of being from a king's family. He will attack the kingdom when the people feel safe, and he will take power by lying to the people. 22 He will sweep away in defeat large and powerful armies and even a prince who made an agreement. 23 Many nations will make agreements with that cruel and hated ruler, but he will lie to them. He will gain much power, but only a few people will support him. 24 The richest areas will feel safe, but that cruel and hated ruler will attack them. He will succeed where his ancestors did not. He will rob the countries he defeats and will give those things to his followers. He will plan to defeat and destroy strong cities, but he will be successful for only a short time. 25 "That very cruel and hated ruler will have a large army that he will use to stir up his strength and courage. He will attack the king of the South. The king of the South will gather a large and very powerful army and prepare for war. But the people who are against him will make secret plans, and the king of the South will be defeated. 26 People who were supposed to be his good friends will try to destroy him. His army will be swept away in defeat; many of his soldiers will be killed in battle. 27 Those two kings will want to hurt each other. They will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but it will not do either one any good, because God has set a time for their end to come. 28 The king of the North will go back to his own country with much wealth. Then he will decide to go against the holy agreement. He will take action and then return to his own country. 29 "At the right time the king of the North will attack the king of the South again, but this time he will not be successful as he was before. 30 Ships from the west will come and fight against the king of the North, so he will be afraid. Then he will return and show his anger against the holy agreement. He will be good to those who have stopped obeying the holy agreement. 31 "The king of the North will send his army to make the Temple in Jerusalem unclean. They will stop the people from offering the daily sacrifice, and then they will set up the destroying terror. 32 The king of the North will tell lies and cause those who have not obeyed God to be ruined. But those who know God and obey him will be strong and fight back. 33 "Those who are wise will help the others understand what is happening. But they will be killed with swords, or burned, or taken captive, or robbed of their homes and possessions. These things will continue for many days. 34 When the wise ones are suffering, they will get a little help, but many who join the wise ones will not help them in their time of need. 35 Some of the wise ones will be killed. But the hard times must come so they can be made stronger and purer and without faults until the time of the end comes. Then, at the right time, the end will come. 36 "The king of the North will do whatever he wants. He will brag about himself and praise himself and think he is even better than a god. He will say things against the God of gods that no one has ever heard. And he will be successful until all the bad things have happened. Then what God has planned to happen will happen. 37 The king of the North will not care about the gods his ancestors worshiped or the god that women worship. He won't care about any god. Instead, he will make himself more important than any god. 38 The king of the North will worship power and strength, which his ancestors did not worship. He will honor the god of power with gold and silver, expensive jewels and gifts. 39 That king will attack strong, walled cities with the help of a foreign god. He will give much honor to the people who join him, making them rulers in charge of many other people. And he will make them pay him for the land they rule. 40 "At the time of the end, the king of the South will fight a battle against the king of the North. The king of the North will attack with chariots, soldiers on horses, and many large ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through their lands like a flood. 41 The king of the North will attack the beautiful land of Judah. He will defeat many countries, but Edom, Moab, and the leaders of Ammon will be saved from him. 42 The king of the North will show his power in many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 The king will get treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt. The Libyan and Nubian people will obey him. 44 But the king of the North will hear news from the east and the north that will make him afraid and angry. He will go to destroy completely many nations. 45 He will set up his royal tents between the sea and the beautiful mountain where the holy Temple is built. But, finally, his end will come, and no one will help him.

 

[Crazy88]

I've read this in another forum. "EndTimes" as depicted in the Bible has been used as various times in this world's past. Look at all the past wars. Any one of which, when compared to this war on terror, was 100 times worse. The great famines, floods, Barbarian Horde conquests, the Plague...all much more deadly than what is happening today.

I personally do not believe that the conflict, as it presents itself today, reflects "EndTimes" at all.

Now if the US, North Korea, China, Russia, and any other nuclear weaponized nation were to rifle off their nukes simultaneously, well then yes, "EndTimes" would definately be something that would quickly come to mind as the flesh melts off my body.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Crazy88
I've read this in another forum. "EndTimes" as depicted in the Bible has been used as various times in this world's past. Look at all the past wars. Any one of which, when compared to this war on terror, was 100 times worse. The great famines, floods, Barbarian Horde conquests, the Plague...all much more deadly than what is happening today.

I personally do not believe that the conflict, as it presents itself today, reflects "EndTimes" at all.

Now if the US, North Korea, China, Russia, and any other nuclear weaponized nation were to rifle off their nukes simultaneously, well then yes, "EndTimes" would definately be something that would quickly come to mind as the flesh melts off my body.

It is the other things that determine end times, not wars.

It is the coordination of the revived roman empire and a one-world religion/govt in combination with events against Israel and a mark of the beast.

Since there has never been another point in history where all of this was happening simultaneously with the technology to make a one world govt/economy and mark happen, it is quite clear where/when we are.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by NewGuy
It is the other things that determine end times, not wars.

It is the coordination of the revived roman empire and a one-world religion/govt in combination with events against Israel and a mark of the beast.

Since there has never been another point in history where all of this was happening simultaneously with the technology to make a one world govt/economy and mark happen, it is quite clear where/when we are.

Agree with the point about it not being the wars making the determination.

I do not feel the times are here, but are approaching. I do not see the events happening all at once, but rather a ramping up.

Taking the North/South analogy, I believe that to be taking place with Israel firmly in the middle - Egypt has yet to figure in.

World govt/economy, you don't think that is taking place or is in its beginning? Look at the EU, the attempt at common currency. The evil, one in my opinion being Islam, is gathering strength to do whatever it is going to do.

From a biblical perspective, I think these are interesting developments.

I mean look at Gore the other day - isn't that the sign of the evil one? It wouldn't surprise me if there was the mark of the beast somewhere on the mans body :

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
I do not feel the times are here, but are approaching. I do not see the events happening all at once, but rather a ramping up.

I guess it depends on your definition of the starting point. I think we will se it all come to fruition in less than 30 years though. In all honesty, I cannot imagine being here for more than 20.

Taking the North/South analogy, I believe that to be taking place with Israel firmly in the middle - Egypt has yet to figure in.

World govt/economy, you don't think that is taking place or is in its beginning? Look at the EU, the attempt at common currency. The evil, one in my opinion being Islam, is gathering strength to do whatever it is going to do.

Well, I am not sure what you mean by the "evil one". I do know the world economy is being formed by example of the Euro, and by the same guy who created it and a new organization of American corporations with international interests. This is no secret. It is called the Terra.

http://www.futureofmoneysummit.com/terra-project.php

From a biblical perspective, I think these are interesting developments.

I mean look at Gore the other day - isn't that the sign of the evil one? It wouldn't surprise me if there was the mark of the beast somewhere on the mans body :

:

Well, I have done some studying and I know that Gore may be a thorn in the side, but he ain't the biggest trouble maker to come.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by NewGuy

I guess it depends on your definition of the starting point. I think we will se it all come to fruition in less than 30 years though. In all honesty, I cannot imagine being here for more than 20.

Agreed. More like 20 or less.

Well, I am not sure what you mean by the "evil one". I do know the world economy is being formed by example of the Euro, and by the same guy who created it and a new organization of American corporations with international interests. This is no secret. It is called the Terra.

When referring to evil one I meant Satan and his armies = Islam. I cannot figure it any other way.

I read the information at the Terra link. As it pertains to this thread, it is good reading and I agree with your premise of the fulfillment of the prophecy. Terra in and of itself, could be the subject of an entire thread by itself.

 

[Crazy88]

Gore did look a bit deranged but then again when Dean was looking like the next Dem Nominee HE looked mighty deranged too.

This war with radical Islam was going to come around one day. It is clearly what Christianity and the extremists thereof was back in the days of the Crusades.

Radicalism, I predict, will die. It is not, in my mind, the rule but rather... the exception. Hitler was thought to be the anti-christ, Stalin too. Communism seemed a lot more insidious during the Cold War.

You make good points but we will never see EndTimes fruition until we are actually at EndTimes.

I DO however see the end of Fundamentalism one day. Of ALL ideologies. Islam is simply a few centuries late. It's quite easy to be fretfull what with our former VP Gore acting like a complete lunatic in search of a straight-jacket and OLD Europe's corruption coming to a head yet again via the disgraceful acts within the UN but all is not lost. Not while there are good men willing to make tough and unpopular decisions.

Blair and Bush.

 

[HGROKIT]

I disagree. Scripture, in Matthew, Chapter 24, Jesus specifically tells us what we will see come the end time (in addition to the prophecy of Daniel) - Matthew 24, verse 15:

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ..."

Actually, I am not fretul in the least. I think it is interesting and exciting from the perspective of my faith.

From the perspective of being an American I say: HEY! Let's go kick some ass!

 

[dilloduck]

I'm sure that's what Jesus would do!

 

[Bullypulpit]

This apocalyptic view of biblical text didn't really come into vogue until the 19th century when religions began to feel threatened by the advance of science. It was then that the so called "End-Time" prophecies becam heavily emphasized in order to reassert control over those who might stray from the fold.

Then too, it must be understood that the allegorical language of these "prophecies" is so vague that they can be applied almost anywhere, at any time.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
This apocalyptic view of biblical text didn't really come into vogue until the 19th century when religions began to feel threatened by the advance of science. It was then that the so called "End-Time" prophecies becam heavily emphasized in order to reassert control over those who might stray from the fold.

Then too, it must be understood that the allegorical language of these "prophecies" is so vague that they can be applied almost anywhere, at any time.

Not to be flip here, but I am not sure I get your point. Historical emphasis being what it is, I am not sure as to how it applies today.

That being said, how would you interpret the verse quoted in Daniel and Matthew 24? I personally do not believe that any of the events described therein were prevalant in the 19th century such as world economy and government.

I will admit however that when I was younger (no comments please), there was talk of the U.N. being the beginning of the so called world government.

One other note here. The worlds "organized religions" have always attempted to put their particular spin on scripture to assert or reassert control over the fold. This was discussed in another thread wherein we were discussing "religion" vs. spirituality - or, if you will, study the teachings of the Bible vs. the doctrines of the varioius churches.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
Not to be flip here, but I am not sure I get your point. Historical emphasis being what it is, I am not sure as to how it applies today.

That being said, how would you interpret the verse quoted in Daniel and Matthew 24? I personally do not believe that any of the events described therein were prevalant in the 19th century such as world economy and government.

I will admit however that when I was younger (no comments please), there was talk of the U.N. being the beginning of the so called world government.

One other note here. The worlds "organized religions" have always attempted to put their particular spin on scripture to assert or reassert control over the fold. This was discussed in another thread wherein we were discussing "religion" vs. spirituality - or, if you will, study the teachings of the Bible vs. the doctrines of the varioius churches.

Well, your quote from Daniel and Matthew could apply to the writers time, as well as any of the tyrannies that have arisen before or since. Dubbyuh could even be the "cruel and hated man". The application of prophecy is all in your interpretaion.

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by dilloduck
I'm sure that's what Jesus would do!

 

[HGROKIT]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
Well, your quote from Daniel and Matthew could apply to the writers time, as well as any of the tyrannies that have arisen before or since. Dubbyuh could even be the "cruel and hated man". The application of prophecy is all in your interpretaion.

You are right and isn't that the point of message boards; to exchange thoughts and invite discussion?

As with any topic based on the abstract rather than tangible evidence, interpretation and belief woulb be the basis for interpretation. However, your interpreation if you had one for exapmle, would be the discussion provoking thought.

 

[Crazy88]

Originally posted by Bullypulpit
This apocalyptic view of biblical text didn't really come into vogue until the 19th century when religions began to feel threatened by the advance of science.

Very true. Knowledge is power and Fundamentalists NEED to restrict that power from reaching the masses.

Islamic Fundas have ALWAYS seen this too be true. Which explains the rejection of "technology" and personal freedoms under which the Afghanis lived under the TAliban and the Iranians under the harsh brutality of Ayatollah Khoemeini.

Fundamentalist Islam is being threatened in Iran as we see with the growing protests among Iranians who WANT modernity in their country. It is also seen in the moderate Iraqis who do NOT want a strict Islamic state.

I believe it will get bad before it finally dies out, similar to the Crusades.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Crazy88
Very true. Knowledge is power and Fundamentalists NEED to restrict that power from reaching the masses.

Islamic Fundas have ALWAYS seen this too be true. Which explains the rejection of "technology" and personal freedoms under which the Afghanis lived under the TAliban and the Iranians under the harsh brutality of Ayatollah Khoemeini.

Fundamentalist Islam is being threatened in Iran as we see with the growing protests among Iranians who WANT modernity in their country. It is also seen in the moderate Iraqis who do NOT want a strict Islamic state.

I believe it will get bad before it finally dies out, similar to the Crusades.

Im not sure this is simply a trait of fundamentalists. I think its the natural tendency of any group in existance to try to limit the information of the arguments opposing it from being known to the public. Often they will do this by either killing their opponents or poisoning the well with tactics like 'political correctness" by in which an opponent is labeled and then dismissed because of the label without regards to whether the persons argument is valid. this happens in both religion and politics.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by HGROKIT
You are right and isn't that the point of message boards; to exchange thoughts and invite discussion?

As with any topic based on the abstract rather than tangible evidence, interpretation and belief woulb be the basis for interpretation. However, your interpreation if you had one for exapmle, would be the discussion provoking thought.

Since I don't have any belief in the validity of prophecy, I can't say that I have any example to offer you.

 

[Crazy88]

Fundamentalism, political fascism, Totalitarianism all go hand in hand.

PC-ness, while it is a major pain in the ass, has yet to have a death sentence attached to offending it.

If I so choose, I still have the freedom to call my neighbor a homo. He may not like it and I may be seen as being rude but it won't get me killed.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by Crazy88
Fundamentalism, political fascism, Totalitarianism all go hand in hand.

PC-ness, while it is a major pain in the ass, has yet to have a death sentence attached to offending it.

If I so choose, I still have the freedom to call my neighbor a homo. He may not like it and I may be seen as being rude but it won't get me killed.

It could if you live in NYC. You never really know there if someone you honk-off won't show up on your doorstep with a gun.

 

[Crazy88]

haha true. ok.

HE might want to chop my head off yes but at least my Gov't won't.