Electric Car Madness!!!!

[skookerasbil]

More epic Volt fAiL............and more k00k losing............


Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

 

[Katzndogz]

Laughing my balls off again..................


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car

By Yoko Kubota

TOKYO | Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:09am EDT

(Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp has scrapped plans for widespread sales of a new all-electric minicar, saying it had misread the market and the ability of still-emerging battery technology to meet consumer demands.


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car | Reuters






Still more k00k losing. These people exist in a world of spectacular fantasy.

What else is there to say?

Honda tried it a couple of years ago with the EV. Then they ended up recalling all the cars that were sold.

 

[martinjlm]

....

Hybrid Car Statistics




O O o o o o o o p s






....

Seriously.....did you really FAIL to notice that you're comparing complete years from 2002 - 2011 to a partial year, less than 1/2 the year, in 2012? REALLY?!?

Hey........call me the asshole here but the baseline is 353,00 for those looking closely.

First, I would never call you that unless you asked me to.

Second, I have no clue where you got "353,00". Even as a typo it makes no sense.

Third... The 2012 number is clearly a first quarter or mid second quarter snapshot. Industry sales are on pace for 14.something million units in 2012. As others have suggested, scaling that up to a total years volume would have hybrid volumes pushing 400K, the exact opposite direction of the point you appear to be trying to make.

Finally, that's just US. It's a big pretty world we live in and people in other parts of the globe are also now starting to take a shine to hybrids and/or EVs.

 

[martinjlm]

Laughing my balls off again..................


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car

By Yoko Kubota

TOKYO | Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:09am EDT

(Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp has scrapped plans for widespread sales of a new all-electric minicar, saying it had misread the market and the ability of still-emerging battery technology to meet consumer demands.


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car | Reuters






..........



What else is there to say?

Did you read far enough into the article to see the part where they said they are also launching 21 different hybrid models in the next 15 months? Or that they are offering a RAV4 Battery Electric Vehicle?

 

[martinjlm]

Laughing my balls off again..................


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car

By Yoko Kubota

TOKYO | Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:09am EDT

(Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp has scrapped plans for widespread sales of a new all-electric minicar, saying it had misread the market and the ability of still-emerging battery technology to meet consumer demands.


Toyota drops plan for widespread sales of electric car | Reuters






Still more k00k losing. These people exist in a world of spectacular fantasy.



.......
What else is there to say?

Honda tried it a couple of years ago with the EV. Then they ended up recalling all the cars that were sold.

To be MORE ACCURATE, Honda, like GM with the EV-1, provided those vehicles on a Closed End Lease, meaning that the users could lease them for a finite period of time. Then those vehicles had to be returned to the company. Both companies did this because they knew that the lead battery technology used in those early EVs would be obsolete by the time the next generation of electric cars were on the road. That's why ALL hybrid and electric vehicles today use either NiMH (hybrids only) or Lithium Ion (HEV and EV) batteries.

 

[martinjlm]

More epic Volt fAiL............and more k00k losing............


Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

So many things wrong with that article I don't know where to start. I addressed this in another thread. If you find that thread, cool. If not....what ever.

 

[skookerasbil]

Seriously.....did you really FAIL to notice that you're comparing complete years from 2002 - 2011 to a partial year, less than 1/2 the year, in 2012? REALLY?!?

Hey........call me the asshole here but the baseline is 353,00 for those looking closely.

First, I would never call you that unless you asked me to.

Second, I have no clue where you got "353,00". Even as a typo it makes no sense.

Third... The 2012 number is clearly a first quarter or mid second quarter snapshot. Industry sales are on pace for 14.something million units in 2012. As others have suggested, scaling that up to a total years volume would have hybrid volumes pushing 400K, the exact opposite direction of the point you appear to be trying to make.

Finally, that's just US. It's a big pretty world we live in and people in other parts of the globe are also now starting to take a shine to hybrids and/or EVs.

Sorry for the major error........252,000+............2007 s0n!!!. Escalator straight down ever since. If thats not a big enough clue, I dont know what to tell you s0n?

 

[Katzndogz]

Electric cars are a waste of money. Their sole purpose seems to be to milk the taxpayer out of huge amounts of cash to subsidize the failed electric car industry.

 

[skookerasbil]

More epic Volt fAiL............and more k00k losing............


Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

So many things wrong with that article I don't know where to start. I addressed this in another thread. If you find that thread, cool. If not....what ever.

Start s0n......and keep on going all ya want. All the nutters on here do.........Im just here to point out Realville to the rest of the people who are just a bit more grounded.


Hybrid/electric vehicles are a joke ( as the graph above clearly illustrates), but you come in here and the k00ks present it like they are about to become 40% of the market.


What these people fail to recognize is how any market really works........there is always a buyer or two for some fringe product. If there are enough of them to reap a small profit, they make it. Its the clever taking advantage of the dull...........it really is the magic of capitalism. Many people have figured out the scam that is the hybrid vehicle........25+K plus for a POS like the Prius.


But there are plenty of assholes out ther with issues who will buy one................


Like this sweetheart..................


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBV486ignTk]Guy gets yelled at by a fat Prius lady for having a diesel truck - YouTube[/ame]


Clever people figure out that there are a couple of million people out there who are these smug "everybody else is ignorant" jackasses who can be duped out of 25K so they can feel important. Like the butt ugly jackass above who desperately had seek a cause in life to be relevant..............


Priceless shit s0ns!!!!!!!!!!



Realville by skooks.

 

[martinjlm]

More epic Volt fAiL............and more k00k losing............


Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

So many things wrong with that article I don't know where to start. I addressed this in another thread. If you find that thread, cool. If not....what ever.

Start s0n......and keep on going all ya want. All the nutters on here do.........Im just here to point out Realville to the rest of the people who are just a bit more grounded.


Hybrid/electric vehicles are a joke ( as the graph above clearly illustrates), but you come in here and the k00ks present it like they are about to become 40% of the market.


What these people fail to recognize is how any market really works........there is always a buyer or two for some fringe product. If there are enough of them to reap a small profit, they make it. Its the clever taking advantage of the dull...........it really is the magic of capitalism. Many people have figured out the scam that is the hybrid vehicle........25+K plus for a POS like the Prius.


But there are plenty of assholes out ther with issues who will buy one................


Like this sweetheart..................


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBV486ignTk]Guy gets yelled at by a fat Prius lady for having a diesel truck - YouTube[/ame]


Clever people figure out that there are a couple of million people out there who are these smug "everybody else is ignorant" jackasses who can be duped out of 25K so they can feel important. Like the butt ugly jackass above who desperately had seek a cause in life to be relevant..............


Priceless shit s0ns!!!!!!!!!!



Realville by skooks.

Ok, first let's get one thing CLEAR......I said I would not call you asshole unless you wanted me to. You keep referring to me as "s0n" and it will be a lot worse than that. You respect me and I will respect you, COOL? Call me Martin or call me martinjlm, or keep my name outta your mouth (or keyboard). I will call you by your username or whatever you choose to be called. That's how I roll here and in the real world.


Now, to address your points, I am a hybrid proponent and I work around people who are developing hybrid and electric vehicle products every day. In my garage there is a Chevrolet Volt that has almost 7,000 miles and hasn't seen a gas pump since I bought it for my wife in March.

As close as I am to hybrid developers, engineers, manufacturers, and strategists for several companies in the industry, NONE of them has ever suggested 40% penetration anytime soon, if ever. The industry "feel" on this sort of product is somewhere around 10% by 2020, maybe as high as 20% by 2025.

Fact of the matter is, in the US, in Europe, in China (world's largest vehicle market, by the way and still growing) fuel economy and emissions regulations are requiring that automakers work on several different alternatives simultaneously. Most on this board are discussing this as a US issue, even a US GOVERNMENT issue. It's so far beyond that. So, as companies develop product for meeting the regulatory requirements of their LARGEST market (China), it is inevitable that the same products that win in China will be marketed here.

In addition, to meet US and European requirements, companies are simultaneously developing more efficient gas and diesel engines, in most cases WITHOUT sacrificing power and driveability. As those engines become more and more efficient, through some very cool, yet very expensive technology, the absolute NEED for hybrids will be reduced, BUT there will still be a need. Just like in the 1970's where automakers HAD TO make smaller cars to meet the new CAFE requirements and HAD TO put expensive catalytic converters on cars to meet the new EPA emissions guidelines, automakers will HAVE TO produce and sell some percentage of hybrid and or electric vehicles in order to achieve the regulations. That or some classes of vehicles we've come to know and love will disappear entirely from the automotive landscape. Now, in my opinion, that number will be closer to 10-15% than it would be to 40%.

Continued technology advances in engine technology, with 6 cylinders replacing 8 cylinders, and 4 cylinders replacing 6 cylinders, and 3 cylinders replacing 4 cylinders will help balance things, but it won't totally solve the problem. Hybrids will be 10-15% of the market. Electrics and EREVs like the Volt will be another 8-10% of the market. Diesel cars and light duty trucks will be another 8-10% of the market. And who knows where CNG vehicles will fall in?

Oh, and I DO NOT claim that piece of work in the video. Fools come in all flavors. For every Prius driving idiot I can find a pickup driver, SUV owner or motorcyclists that is equally offensive. One knucklehead does not define the tribe.

 

[martinjlm]

More epic Volt fAiL............and more k00k losing............


Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters

So many things wrong with that article I don't know where to start. I addressed this in another thread. If you find that thread, cool. If not....what ever.

Copied from my post in a similar thread.....


ASSUMING for a one second that GM IS losing $49K for each Volt and ASSUMING that there will be 30,000 Volts sold this year. That is $1.47B. Using 2011 calendar year sales and financial data, that would be out of global sales of about 9.2M vehicles and revenue of $150B and net income of $7.6B. Still solidly in the black IF the $49B number were true. 2012 sales, revenue, and net income numbers are expected to be higher.

One of the erroneous assumptions in the Forbes article is that the costs of installing the capacity are amortized over the vehicles sold to date. That is a ridiculous assumption. Given that the equipment will be used and depreciated over the full life-cycle of the car and all it's derivatives. Opel Ampera and Cadillac ELR are known derivatives to date. There may or may not be more derivatives coming. The important thing to consider is the overall material cost and labor cost on a per vehicle basis. Those numbers probably still have the Volt being produced at a loss. Thing is, as volume increases, and as battery technology continues to drive the cost of the battery system down, it will reach a point where a profit is realized. It happened with Prius. It happened with Civic Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid, etc, etc.....

For what it's worth, I'll be attending the Paris Auto Show where BMW, Audi, and possibly Mercedes Benz will be showing concept and intended production vehicles featuring <gasp!> EREV technology. So, let's just keep on hammering GM for beating good ol' German engineering to the punch!

 

[flacaltenn]

Martin:::

That or some classes of vehicles we've come to know and love will disappear entirely from the automotive landscape. Now, in my opinion, that number will be closer to 10-15% than it would be to 40%.

The last time the Central Planners killed off a popular class of vehicle (the station wagon) they forced the market to go to truck chassis SUVs to get around the edict. This mandating thing is gonna make your job more lawyerly than engineering.

And I don't believe that hybrids are passing fad or that ICE engine advancements will remove the hybrid reason for being. The benefits of scavenging braking energy, natural start/stop tech, and the efficiency of electric drive motors are gonna make this tech. stick..

Larger questions exist about the wisdom of piling all our transportation power onto the grid for distribution.. You cannot seriously engineer a switch-over to electric vehicle power when you are telling folks to pull 1W chargers out of the walls and turn down their thermostats and replace their bulbs. We're not gonna get there having electrical generation at the edge of scarcity.. It's policy run amok..

Personally -- I think a better way to go would be to push on with fuel cells and make hydrogen from renewables (away from the GRID). You need fuel for transportation to be STORED.. That doesn't happen on the grid. You'll find that out 48 hours in advance of a hurricane when everyone needs to fuel up...

 

[skookerasbil]

Martin:::

That or some classes of vehicles we've come to know and love will disappear entirely from the automotive landscape. Now, in my opinion, that number will be closer to 10-15% than it would be to 40%.

The last time the Central Planners killed off a popular class of vehicle (the station wagon) they forced the market to go to truck chassis SUVs to get around the edict. This mandating thing is gonna make your job more lawyerly than engineering.

And I don't believe that hybrids are passing fad or that ICE engine advancements will remove the hybrid reason for being. The benefits of scavenging braking energy, natural start/stop tech, and the efficiency of electric drive motors are gonna make this tech. stick..

Larger questions exist about the wisdom of piling all our transportation power onto the grid for distribution.. You cannot seriously engineer a switch-over to electric vehicle power when you are telling folks to pull 1W chargers out of the walls and turn down their thermostats and replace their bulbs. We're not gonna get there having electrical generation at the edge of scarcity.. It's policy run amok..

Personally -- I think a better way to go would be to push on with fuel cells and make hydrogen from renewables (away from the GRID). You need fuel for transportation to be STORED.. That doesn't happen on the grid. You'll find that out 48 hours in advance of a hurricane when everyone needs to fuel up...

LOL.....these meatheads who are enamoured with this BS technology. Drive for 30 minutes and suddenly, Ooooooops..........dead battery fAiL. Gay. Anyway........most people dont want something that does zero-60 in ten minutes.

If the government gets the fuck out of the way.......and only if they do by the way.......somebody wiill build an energy source that is 21st century technology. Right now, its like the car companies trying to build a Ferrari chassis on a Model T platform. Well......I guess maybe Henry Ford would be real proud pf them!!!


At the moent, saving up for one of these babies.........non-gay I might add. Now..........which would you rather drive. A Leaf, a Prius,.....or THIS..............


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hUUYs1lYhk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hUUYs1lYhk[/ame]

 

[skookerasbil]

My current ride..........also non-gay.............

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUNqJzdrZiY]2004 Mustang GT Black Exhaust/Burnouts - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Every major economic fuckup of the last 100 years or so, the libs and progressives are behind them.

 

[martinjlm]

Martin:::

That or some classes of vehicles we've come to know and love will disappear entirely from the automotive landscape. Now, in my opinion, that number will be closer to 10-15% than it would be to 40%.

The last time the Central Planners killed off a popular class of vehicle (the station wagon) they forced the market to go to truck chassis SUVs to get around the edict. This mandating thing is gonna make your job more lawyerly than engineering.

And I don't believe that hybrids are passing fad or that ICE engine advancements will remove the hybrid reason for being. The benefits of scavenging braking energy, natural start/stop tech, and the efficiency of electric drive motors are gonna make this tech. stick..

Larger questions exist about the wisdom of piling all our transportation power onto the grid for distribution.. You cannot seriously engineer a switch-over to electric vehicle power when you are telling folks to pull 1W chargers out of the walls and turn down their thermostats and replace their bulbs. We're not gonna get there having electrical generation at the edge of scarcity.. It's policy run amok..

Personally -- I think a better way to go would be to push on with fuel cells and make hydrogen from renewables (away from the GRID). You need fuel for transportation to be STORED.. That doesn't happen on the grid. You'll find that out 48 hours in advance of a hurricane when everyone needs to fuel up...

I also don't believe hybrids are a passing fad. I just don't think they will dominate the landscape like SUVs have in the US for the past 30 years. There are a number of paths to achieve the upcoming 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations. None of them is a silver bullet. As a result, we will see a blended set of solutions. Every large global automaker (GM, Ford, Toyota, FiatChrysler, Volkswagen, Honda, Hyundai) will have a mix of cars with downsized boosted engines (new BMW 5-Series has a 2.0 Liter 4-cylinder turbo instead of a 6 cylinder), diesels, hybrids, electric vehicles, and range extended electric vehicles. The trick is predicting which solutions work best in which classes of vehicle.

Don't believe me.....pick your favorite (or least favorite automaker) and google their name plus hybrid or BEV or diesel and see all the concept vehicles and production vehicles they are rushing to bring out with every one of the technologies I just mentioned. For giggles and grins, google BMW i-Series. Then note that the person running that program used to be the Chief Engineer for the Chevy Volt. Google Audi eTron. Or Mercedes E-Cell. These are production vehicles coming our way, folks. Volt was just first. The super cool Acura NSX sports car that Honda / Acura is going to build in Ohio in 2015 is a ......hybrid. Ferrari is going to replace the $1 million Ferrari Enzo with the Ferrari 599 which is......a hybrid.

When the US 2020 fuel economy regs hit.....54.5 mpg corporate fleet average, companies will be in the position where for every large SUV or pickup sold, they will have to sell a hybrid somewhere else in the portfolio to balance out their fuel economy position. Now, that is over-simplifying the situation, but basically, automakers will need to sell hybrids and electric vehicles in order to counter balance the poor fuel economy of pickups, SUV, and big engined sports cars.

So those of you who love SUVs and pickups should encourage the folks that like hybrids and EVs to buy more so that your pickups and SUVs can still be available at a reasonable price.

 

[skookerasbil]

Martin:::

That or some classes of vehicles we've come to know and love will disappear entirely from the automotive landscape. Now, in my opinion, that number will be closer to 10-15% than it would be to 40%.

The last time the Central Planners killed off a popular class of vehicle (the station wagon) they forced the market to go to truck chassis SUVs to get around the edict. This mandating thing is gonna make your job more lawyerly than engineering.

And I don't believe that hybrids are passing fad or that ICE engine advancements will remove the hybrid reason for being. The benefits of scavenging braking energy, natural start/stop tech, and the efficiency of electric drive motors are gonna make this tech. stick..

Larger questions exist about the wisdom of piling all our transportation power onto the grid for distribution.. You cannot seriously engineer a switch-over to electric vehicle power when you are telling folks to pull 1W chargers out of the walls and turn down their thermostats and replace their bulbs. We're not gonna get there having electrical generation at the edge of scarcity.. It's policy run amok..

Personally -- I think a better way to go would be to push on with fuel cells and make hydrogen from renewables (away from the GRID). You need fuel for transportation to be STORED.. That doesn't happen on the grid. You'll find that out 48 hours in advance of a hurricane when everyone needs to fuel up...

I also don't believe hybrids are a passing fad. I just don't think they will dominate the landscape like SUVs have in the US for the past 30 years. There are a number of paths to achieve the upcoming 2016 and 2020 fuel economy and emissions regulations. None of them is a silver bullet. As a result, we will see a blended set of solutions. Every large global automaker (GM, Ford, Toyota, FiatChrysler, Volkswagen, Honda, Hyundai) will have a mix of cars with downsized boosted engines (new BMW 5-Series has a 2.0 Liter 4-cylinder turbo instead of a 6 cylinder), diesels, hybrids, electric vehicles, and range extended electric vehicles. The trick is predicting which solutions work best in which classes of vehicle.

Don't believe me.....pick your favorite (or least favorite automaker) and google their name plus hybrid or BEV or diesel and see all the concept vehicles and production vehicles they are rushing to bring out with every one of the technologies I just mentioned. For giggles and grins, google BMW i-Series. Then note that the person running that program used to be the Chief Engineer for the Chevy Volt. Google Audi eTron. Or Mercedes E-Cell. These are production vehicles coming our way, folks. Volt was just first. The super cool Acura NSX sports car that Honda / Acura is going to build in Ohio in 2015 is a ......hybrid. Ferrari is going to replace the $1 million Ferrari Enzo with the Ferrari 599 which is......a hybrid.

When the US 2020 fuel economy regs hit.....54.5 mpg corporate fleet average, companies will be in the position where for every large SUV or pickup sold, they will have to sell a hybrid somewhere else in the portfolio to balance out their fuel economy position. Now, that is over-simplifying the situation, but basically, automakers will need to sell hybrids and electric vehicles in order to counter balance the poor fuel economy of pickups, SUV, and big engined sports cars.

So those of you who love SUVs and pickups should encourage the folks that like hybrids and EVs to buy more so that your pickups and SUVs can still be available at a reasonable price.

LOL.......the "trick" is making the technology affordable. Its the only trick. ANd its gonna get worse for hybrids as the new epa standards kick in and the automakers cars will have to average 54mpg.........which is so lame........again, government fucking up the market and now we're going to have far more death trap type cars on the highway..........the 2 door SPECK variety........like this go-cart pos...........

My 'Stang got tagged in the rear a year ago by some moron who was texting.........if my kid is in the back of this thing, they are not around anymore. The government fucks up everything........to satisfy a k00k voting block. In this economy, people dont want to shell out the thousands extra, but they dont give a shit as long as the country moves at a snails pace towards the green dream. Only a fucking nut or a non-parent could be thrilled with the prospect of sending off teenaged Americans in a 2 Door SPECK........."Have a safe trip honey!!!"


OK


Hybrids and EV's will be a fad for decades to come, just like solar power and wind.........the market knows there are enough suckers out there to make it profitable. They will still be a sliver of the market compared to say.........trucks.


Something like this ( see green/purple/blue)...................in vehicle terms

 

[flacaltenn]

Martin:

From where I sit -- there are car lines that SHOULDN'T be forced into CAFE standards. There is nothing that Mercedes or BMW WANT to make that helps compliance. We've reached the point where the standards are FORCING products into manufacturers that have NO interest in marketing those cars.

I know for a fact that BMW is taking a tremendous hit from it's fan club over this Start-Stop nonsense. Customers are SCREAMING for BMW to permanently disable the feature.. MAYBE be BMW over-engineered the crap out of it and blew the implementation --- but also because the customers don't EXPECT that sketchy level of performance from their expensive cars.

So even if we cheered for the nutters who voluntarily buy EVs and 4 cyc gokarts, so we can buy SUVs -- these mandates are screwing up the raison d-etre for many car companies who don't want to be building commute boxes at all.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Interesting. The hybrids and electrics are the wave of the future. The owning of a car that runs partly on electricity, such as the C-Max Energi, will make solar very practical for the home owner. A quick payback on an investment that not only provides power for the home, but fuel for tranportation.

A quick payback on whose investment since we are subsidizing the DOLT?

Tell you what if you want a fucking electric car then you pay for it.

 

[martinjlm]

Martin:

From where I sit -- there are car lines that SHOULDN'T be forced into CAFE standards. There is nothing that Mercedes or BMW WANT to make that helps compliance. We've reached the point where the standards are FORCING products into manufacturers that have NO interest in marketing those cars.

I know for a fact that BMW is taking a tremendous hit from it's fan club over this Start-Stop nonsense. Customers are SCREAMING for BMW to permanently disable the feature.. MAYBE be BMW over-engineered the crap out of it and blew the implementation --- but also because the customers don't EXPECT that sketchy level of performance from their expensive cars.

So even if we cheered for the nutters who voluntarily buy EVs and 4 cyc gokarts, so we can buy SUVs -- these mandates are screwing up the raison d-etre for many car companies who don't want to be building commute boxes at all.

I understand what you are saying, but it appears to me to be a US-centric point of view. As harsh as they are, the US standards will be. EASIER to meet than European and Chinese standards expected to be in place at the same time. Remember, China is now and will continue to be the largest automotive market. So all the big companies will be engineering product to meet the Chinese regulations.

One of the issues with hybrids is it will take several 10s of thousands of units for any hybrid system to become profitable for any auto maker. Toyota is already there. Ford may be there....very close if they are not there. Everyone else is struggling with WHERE they want to place their bets and are capable of sustaining a short term / mid term loss. VW /Audi would probably prefer not to do hybrids at all and focus on diesels, but the reality of the situation is they HAVE to do hybrids in the US and China because both countries are largely diesel-averse.

BMW has to use Stop Start because on a company by company basis BMW has had the most ground to recover to make the 2016 fuel economy requirements. So they are downsizing and turbocharging EVERYTHING! Try to buy a new non-turbo BMW in a couple years. You won't be able to. Try to buy a new V8 BMW. On a couple years. You won't be able to. And it's not just because of the US regs. They're designing the same products for China and Europe.