either Cain or Perry both CAN make ordinary worker self sufficient!

Either one are in favor of letting the ordinary worker accumulate now I'm shouting because people don't seem to understand:
THE POWER OF COMPOUND INTEREST is the engine.
For those that don't understand:

A 23 yr worker starting at 30K a year with salary increases of 20% every
10 years would have paid in under current SS/Medicare over $300,000.
Letting the money accumulate at 5% for 42 years the ordinary worker under either Cain or Perry over $1,220,348!

A millionaire at 5% for 42 years through the power of compounding every ordinary worker can become a millionaire!

So either way... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN WITH A DEMOCRAT BECAUSE NO DEMOCRAT WANTS THE ORDINARY WORKER TO BECOME SELF SUFFICIENT!

What happens if the young worker becomes disabled?

Social Security is INSURANCE.

Social Security is a SAFETY NET.
 
AND??
What does that have to do with the compound interest?

This has nothing to do with other issues like how
FACTS:
If you become disabled and unable to work in America, you can apply for federal assistance in the form of social security disability and, if you are lucky, your own case will be among the thirty or so percent of claims that are actually approved at the application level.
FACTS: Disabled workers 8.4 million!
source:Social Security Adminstration: Social Security Basic Facts
FACTS: Total people working in USA 2010...... 129,818,000
source:ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt
FACTS: 6.47% are disabled!
SO 93.5% will continue to be workers and continue to pay in!
FACTS: In my compound interest calculation 10% has been set aside for just what you are suggesting, i.e. for those 6% that become disabled!
That 10% would be applied to a private disability insurance program!
Problem solved!
AGAIN why are you against 94% Americans accumulating over $1 million on their own so when the retire instead of the government check for retirement and health ..ALL of that is the worker's responsibility!
NO govt. debt for SS and Medicare!

FACTS:
 
AND??
What does that have to do with the compound interest?

This has nothing to do with other issues like how
FACTS:
If you become disabled and unable to work in America, you can apply for federal assistance in the form of social security disability and, if you are lucky, your own case will be among the thirty or so percent of claims that are actually approved at the application level.
FACTS: Disabled workers 8.4 million!
source:Social Security Adminstration: Social Security Basic Facts
FACTS: Total people working in USA 2010...... 129,818,000
source:ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt
FACTS: 6.47% are disabled!
SO 93.5% will continue to be workers and continue to pay in!
FACTS: In my compound interest calculation 10% has been set aside for just what you are suggesting, i.e. for those 6% that become disabled!
That 10% would be applied to a private disability insurance program!
Problem solved!
AGAIN why are you against 94% Americans accumulating over $1 million on their own so when the retire instead of the government check for retirement and health ..ALL of that is the worker's responsibility!
NO govt. debt for SS and Medicare!

FACTS:

AGAIN why are you against 94% Americans accumulating over $1 million on their own so when the retire instead of the government check for retirement and health ..ALL of that is the worker's responsibility!
NO govt. debt for SS and Medicare!.

Why can't workers do both? Social Security provides a safety net and a steady source of income. All workers should be building a nest egg through either a 401k or IRA tax free

Why put all your retirement eggs in one basket?
 
you wrote" There is no assurance that the money you accumulate will protect you when you are elderly"
Evidently YOU have NO clue as to the following FACTS !
PLEASE read and THINK for once!
This is the Social Trustee's Report
Social Security Benefits, Finances, and Policy Options: A Primer | National Academy of Social Insurance
*Updated to reflect the estimates of the 2011 Trustees Report.**
NASI Social Security Primer 2011.pdf

54.2 million received social security check each month
34.7 million retired workers receive $1,177 per month or $40.841 billion per month

Page 25
In 2010
Trust fund received $781.1 billion
Trust fund paid out $712.5 billion
leaving $68.6 billion used by U.S. government.
NOTE you understand what Trustees' were explaining here?

Page 28
The investments held by the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government. NOTE "Full faith and credit" statement SAME as what is used for Fannie/Freddie to back toxic mortgages!

page 31...
In 2023, revenues plus interest income to the trust funds will be less
than total expenditures for that year.
Reserves will start to be drawn down to pay benefits.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? MORE MONEY GOING OUT THEN COMING IN!
AND YOU WROTE:There is no assurance that the money you accumulate

In 2036, trust fund reserves are projected to be depleted.
Income is projected to cover 77% of benefits due then.

MY COMMENT: MORE MONEY PAID OUT THEN MONEY COMING IN!!

By 2085, assuming no change in taxes, benefits or assumptions,
revenue would cover about 74% of benefits due then.
MY COMMENT: MORE MONEY PAID OUT THEN MONEY COMING IN!!

Do you understand that the Trustees are telling you SS will run out of money!

Again.. why are you stupidly commenting then:
There is no assurance that the money you accumulate will protect you when you are elderly"

Evidently YOU don't know what FDIC means do you?
Again... let the ordinary worker accumulate a $1 million and be self sufficient and all of will be in FDIC accounts if the worker WANTS!

Why are you against that?
 
Either one are in favor of letting the ordinary worker accumulate now I'm shouting because people don't seem to understand:
THE POWER OF COMPOUND INTEREST is the engine.
For those that don't understand:

A 23 yr worker starting at 30K a year with salary increases of 20% every
10 years would have paid in under current SS/Medicare over $300,000.
Letting the money accumulate at 5% for 42 years the ordinary worker under either Cain or Perry over $1,220,348!

A millionaire at 5% for 42 years through the power of compounding every ordinary worker can become a millionaire!

So either way... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN WITH A DEMOCRAT BECAUSE NO DEMOCRAT WANTS THE ORDINARY WORKER TO BECOME SELF SUFFICIENT!

Okay, now do a disabled 23 year old who is incapable of working because he was born with a significant physical challenge. How much does he make over 42 years of compound interest?

Look you stupid fucker, a 23yr old incapable of working isn't an ordinary worker is he?
 
You wrote:
1)" If people stop paying FICA taxes, the money will have to come from somewhere else, or the benefits won't be paid. Money doesn't just magically appear when you elect a Republican."
The SS/Medicare payments ARE NOT counted as INCOME TAXES I hope you realize!
Cain is calling for a 9% income tax rate NOT reduction of SS/Medicare.
But they ARE all in favor of these payments being self directed to what the worker wants but will NOT be accessible until retirement!
AND will NOT be mandatory! If workers DON"T WANT payments to be self directed they continue to traditional money paid in will be lumped and paid out as payments.
But those that understand the control is up to them and even then if they want their account to go strictly into government bonds...NOT a problem!
What the worker will find out is at young age best to invest in growth stocks!

You wrote:
2) Isn't the American worker already self-sufficient? They must be, since America as a whole produces a large positive GDP and the American worker is more productive than the American non-worker."
What does that have to do with the individual worker accumulating over $1 million?

3) "It is unlikely that a low-risk 5% return will be available continuously for the next 45 years."
DUH! So geez that means equities that unlike your evidently unawareness over the last 100 years people investing in equities have averaged through the few bad years and the majority of good years 8% growth! DUH!!!

4) You have a final salary of about $68,145.40 in your model. There are plenty of jobs where salaries don't go that high no matter how much seniority one accumulates.
Prove that statement! Because here is the median income in the U.S.!
The median household income in the United States is $46,326
MEDIAN income at age 53 $46,326 till age 65..
still will accumulate at 5% $913,000
!

You wrote:
6) You don't seem to consider the effects of inflation at all in your model
OK let's add inflation for the last 40 years...
FACT: The average over the last 40 years has been 4.5%.
http://www.sunware.ca/illustrations
/inflation.aspx?isRecalc=N&selectedLanguage=en-CA

So at age 23 40 years ago starting salary $4,743 and increasing for 42 years and after age 53 salary no longer increases by stays at median of $46,326 till age 65.
Accumulation at 5% plus inflation of 4.5% equals 9.5%
Total amount taking in consideration inflation: $3,282,942!!!
Again.. my point just to make it clear..
LET THE INDIVIDUAL HAVE POWER TO ACCUMULATE OVER $1 MILLION!
INDEPENDENCE TO THE WORKER!!!
 
healthymyths is loony. it is the only answer, period. hm thinks life does not happen. ignore him.
 
You wrote"Why can't workers do both? Social Security provides a safety net and a steady source of income. All workers should be building a nest egg through either a 401k or IRA tax free"
ONE MAJOR REASON! Right now every dollar deducted and matched by your employer (which doesn't happen by the way with 401K and definitely NOT with AFTER tax dollar in an IRA..) goes directly to the Federal Government's general revenue!
It along with trillions of tax dollars is then returned as benefits.

There is NO growth. As it's been described a Ponzi scheme.. money coming in is used to pay benefits going out!
By allowing the average worker to direct the accumulations into savings, bonds, equities,etc. the govt. can't touch it!
BUT at retirement the worker now has a million dollars to be:
1) spent at 5% interest or $4,000/month. (No need for a ave. $1,500/govt. check)!
2) out of which health premiums can be paid (no need for Medicare then!)
3) Catastrophic insurance takes care of major expenses
4) Assisted living comes from depleting the $1 million.. over next 20 years..
5) Net proceeds can then be passed on to heirs!
6) Heirs now have a nest egg to add to their accumulation!

Soon a nation of millionaires all because the power of
1) Forced savings deducted by from paycheck before worker has to spend it and matched by the employer
(who also doesn't need to offer 401k!)
2) Accumulation at 5% over 42 years of $1 million -- due to compound interest!
 
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You wrote:
1)" If people stop paying FICA taxes, the money will have to come from somewhere else, or the benefits won't be paid. Money doesn't just magically appear when you elect a Republican."
The SS/Medicare payments ARE NOT counted as INCOME TAXES I hope you realize!
Cain is calling for a 9% income tax rate NOT reduction of SS/Medicare.
But they ARE all in favor of these payments being self directed to what the worker wants but will NOT be accessible until retirement!
AND will NOT be mandatory! If workers DON"T WANT payments to be self directed they continue to traditional money paid in will be lumped and paid out as payments.
But those that understand the control is up to them and even then if they want their account to go strictly into government bonds...NOT a problem!
What the worker will find out is at young age best to invest in growth stocks!

You wrote:
2) Isn't the American worker already self-sufficient? They must be, since America as a whole produces a large positive GDP and the American worker is more productive than the American non-worker."
What does that have to do with the individual worker accumulating over $1 million?

3) "It is unlikely that a low-risk 5% return will be available continuously for the next 45 years."
DUH! So geez that means equities that unlike your evidently unawareness over the last 100 years people investing in equities have averaged through the few bad years and the majority of good years 8% growth! DUH!!!

4) You have a final salary of about $68,145.40 in your model. There are plenty of jobs where salaries don't go that high no matter how much seniority one accumulates.
Prove that statement! Because here is the median income in the U.S.!
The median household income in the United States is $46,326
MEDIAN income at age 53 $46,326 till age 65..
still will accumulate at 5% $913,000
!

You wrote:
6) You don't seem to consider the effects of inflation at all in your model
OK let's add inflation for the last 40 years...
FACT: The average over the last 40 years has been 4.5%.
http://www.sunware.ca/illustrations
/inflation.aspx?isRecalc=N&selectedLanguage=en-CA

So at age 23 40 years ago starting salary $4,743 and increasing for 42 years and after age 53 salary no longer increases by stays at median of $46,326 till age 65.
Accumulation at 5% plus inflation of 4.5% equals 9.5%
Total amount taking in consideration inflation: $3,282,942!!!
Again.. my point just to make it clear..
LET THE INDIVIDUAL HAVE POWER TO ACCUMULATE OVER $1 MILLION!
INDEPENDENCE TO THE WORKER!!!

Thank you for your interest in my post.

1) I am indeed well aware that payroll taxes are not part of the income tax system.

I had earlier understood you to mean that a Perry/Cain plan would increase a worker's net worth. Now you seem to be suggesting that they would give a worker increased control over their assets by allowing them to opt out of SS. I find that much more plausible.

2) Your first post said: "either Cain or Perry both CAN make ordinary worker self sufficient!" That suggests that the American worker is not currently self sufficient or will soon fail to be self sufficient. That is what my comments about the self-sufficiency of the American worker had to do with your post.

3) This is tangential to the main point of the thread. My point here was that a 5% return was not possible in the near future without the assumption of risk. Your original post did not address risk, perhaps suggesting an assumption of zero risk. Of course if one chooses the right stocks one can enjoy extraordinary returns. If someone invested in a fund that performed with the DJIA, they would have had a negative return over the last five years.

4) Unskilled workers rarely realize the raises you assume. If you go to salary.com and check unskilled jobs you'll find plenty of professions where the 90th percentile is still a salary under $30,000. Plenty of people retiring now worked their whole lives without getting to a salary of $68,000. Of course, plenty of others make more than that. If your concern is truly to help the median worker, perhaps you don't need to worry about the working poor, but I took your post to mean that you were concerned about a broad range of workers, not just literally the median worker.

6) Now you seem to be assuming that the "real" (IE, after inflation) return on investment will be 5%, so that with inflation at 4.5% one would see a nominal return of 9.5%. I've already expressed concern about your projected ROI, and casually doubling it hardly makes me more confident in your model.
 
you wrote"
If someone invested in a fund that performed with the DJIA, they would have had a negative return over the last five years.
GEEZ NO KIDDING!!! MY point is 42 years! During 40 years the DJIA average 8%.
AND GEEZ... NO one would be advising someone approaching retirement age to be in the stock market.. but obviously in more secure positions!
MY point is the ordinary worker CAN'T save on his own! So let him accumulate at least on his own that money deducted from his paycheck!

You wrote"
4) Unskilled workers rarely realize the raises you assume. If you go to salary.com and check unskilled jobs you'll find plenty of professions where the 90th percentile is still a salary under $30,000. Plenty of people retiring now worked their whole lives without getting to a salary of $68,000. Of course, plenty of others make more than that. If your concern is truly to help the median worker, perhaps you don't need to worry about the working poor, but I took your post to mean that you were concerned about a broad range of workers, not just literally the median worker."


FACTS...
In 2008 according to these TAX tables from the IRS.. really you should deal with the real facts here:
SOI Tax Stats - Individual Statistical Tables by Size of Adjusted Gross Income
48,254,034 tax returns with incomes $50,000 and above. 34% earned $50K and UP!
44,251,231 returns 20K to $50K..
My point again is simple..
LET the ordinary worker accumulate his own money even at 3% and that simple worker earning $40K for entire life would have $554,000 accumulated!
Think if our govt. didn't have to pay out to those 48 million retired people $1,500/month and $800/month in Medicare!
But that's happening now and it can not be sustained!
 
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