Education: The Big Lie

[MHunterB]

The biggest lie in higher education is that "affordability" is a function of government subsidies rather than the cost of providing that education. Why should professors make $100,000+ per year for working less than 20 hours per week?

I suppose it depends on of what one is a professor. The ones in my family all work much more than 20 hours a week.

I suppose those who've never had to prep a class don't realize the 5-20 hours of development time which goes into a single hour's 'new' lecture? Not to mention the time spent in reading papers to grade 'em, counselling and advising students, attending assorted meetings, reading papers to keep up in the field, supervising labs, and attempting to fulfil the dictum of 'publish or perish'..... Oh, and making sure the textbooks are going to be there - after one has researched to select texts! And ordering lab supplies and .......

The 'question' above is rather like asking why ballerinas should get paid serious money when they only do three two-hour performances a week.

 

[Steelplate]

yeah, football players only play three hours/week....and only one hour out of the three in a game is actually spent playing football.

 

[midcan5]

Oh those bad baby boomers, if it wasn't for them, why happiness would blossom and the author of this insipid nonsense would bask in the glory of that lost horizon, that lost Shangri-La. Balderdash I say.

First off no official claims education is the cure for the economy, what they claim is in order for America to be a credible challenge in a global world an education is important. Believe it or not folks a college education still opens doors, what you do there is up to you. And it really doesn't matter what degree you have so long as you can operate the tools of our modern technological world. But I'm no longer sure even that is true.

What the heck is a "massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services" anyway? No one was told anything, success required credentials, credentials were a degree, it aint magic. Soon college became a business and a way to the top, people who could did. The wealthy today spend more on schooling than ever before: education meet capitalism / markets.

What is a 'tertiary economy' some of the best and brightest didn't finish school, they were educated, often self educated, but advanced degrees didn't always matter. When I started in the corporate world you didn't need a degree, now you do. In the past you worked your way up, that model changed with outsourcing and contract work and the growth of mega-corporations. The global marketplace and low wages overseas are not about education. Education was never a panacea.

QW says the education bubble will burst? What bubble is that? Smart people will always find work, creative, talented people will always find work, a degree helps, large corporations still hire from colleges, that part of the economy is fine.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

the biggest issue I have with education is the emphasis on degrees in the workplace. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you are, or how intelligent you are. Your earnings potential is severely limited.

The second biggest issue is the cost involved in attaining that degree. We have a 529 account for both of our kids....our oldest got a four year degree from Penn State and even with the help of the 529 account, he still ended up $26k in debt with student loans. If we hadn't planned....he would have been about $100k in debt....before he started his life. That's way too much to saddle a 22year old with before he even gets his first "career" oriented job.

even two year degrees from Tech schools cost about 10k/year and your earnings potential is lower after you get it.

Community colleges, which used to fill that void with affordable Associates degree programs have slowly been swallowed up by private Tech schools, or have become satellite campuses of larger and more expensive Universities.

The bad thing about the tech schools is that credits don't transfer if one does want to go on and get a Bachelor's. The bad thing about satellite campuses os that they charge the same as their main campuses.

It's a bad situation all around.

The single largest driver for the cost of education is the drive to make sure everyone gets one. Those student loans that make it easier for kids to "afford" more expensive colleges artificially increase the demand for those colleges without doing anything to increase the supply of classrooms. If you qualify for an expensive college you qualify for a less expensive college that you can afford.

and what is the cause of that drive to make sure everyone gets one? Oh yeah.....employers DEMANDING a Bachelor's for a decent position. In case you hadn't noticed, the days of an employee rising from the mailroom to the board room are over. They want the education before they'll even consider your application.

I know that Conservatives love to blame everything on Gubmint, but the truth of the matter is that industry, commerce and business is demanding the education.

As for the expensive school/cheap school thing, you have a point. But then again, a Degree from a high end school like PSU, Michigan or UCLA looks a heck of a lot better on a resume than a small state sponsored school.

I agree that it's a racket....but spread the blame far enough....it goes deep into the private sector as well as academia and government.

Can you point out which part of the essay I linked to blamed the government? Maybe you should stop blaming business for everything, or at least stop pretending that Democrats hate business.

There are some degrees that are worth pursuing, of you are an exceptional student. MIT got the reputation it has because it only took the best. Now, thanks to affirmative action, MIT has a holistic approach to choosing students, not one that is driven by excellence.

Feel free to blame that on business.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Oh those bad baby boomers, if it wasn't for them, why happiness would blossom and the author of this insipid nonsense would bask in the glory of that lost horizon, that lost Shangri-La. Balderdash I say.

First off no official claims education is the cure for the economy, what they claim is in order for America to be a credible challenge in a global world an education is important. Believe it or not folks a college education still opens doors, what you do there is up to you. And it really doesn't matter what degree you have so long as you can operate the tools of our modern technological world. But I'm no longer sure even that is true.

What the heck is a "massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services" anyway? No one was told anything, success required credentials, credentials were a degree, it aint magic. Soon college became a business and a way to the top, people who could did. The wealthy today spend more on schooling than ever before: education meet capitalism / markets.

What is a 'tertiary economy' some of the best and brightest didn't finish school, they were educated, often self educated, but advanced degrees didn't always matter. When I started in the corporate world you didn't need a degree, now you do. In the past you worked your way up, that model changed with outsourcing and contract work and the growth of mega-corporations. The global marketplace and low wages overseas are not about education. Education was never a panacea.

QW says the education bubble will burst? What bubble is that? Smart people will always find work, creative, talented people will always find work, a degree helps, large corporations still hire from colleges, that part of the economy is fine.

Did you even read the OP? No one is blaming the boomers, the essay is just pointing out that some of the fundamental assumptions underlying our society are wrong, and that we are going to hit a wall if we don't admit that the economy is not driven by wishful thinking.

 

[spectrumc01]

the biggest issue I have with education is the emphasis on degrees in the workplace. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you are, or how intelligent you are. Your earnings potential is severely limited.

The second biggest issue is the cost involved in attaining that degree. We have a 529 account for both of our kids....our oldest got a four year degree from Penn State and even with the help of the 529 account, he still ended up $26k in debt with student loans. If we hadn't planned....he would have been about $100k in debt....before he started his life. That's way too much to saddle a 22year old with before he even gets his first "career" oriented job.

even two year degrees from Tech schools cost about 10k/year and your earnings potential is lower after you get it.

Community colleges, which used to fill that void with affordable Associates degree programs have slowly been swallowed up by private Tech schools, or have become satellite campuses of larger and more expensive Universities.

The bad thing about the tech schools is that credits don't transfer if one does want to go on and get a Bachelor's. The bad thing about satellite campuses os that they charge the same as their main campuses.

It's a bad situation all around.

The single largest driver for the cost of education is the drive to make sure everyone gets one. Those student loans that make it easier for kids to "afford" more expensive colleges artificially increase the demand for those colleges without doing anything to increase the supply of classrooms. If you qualify for an expensive college you qualify for a less expensive college that you can afford.

and what is the cause of that drive to make sure everyone gets one? Oh yeah.....employers DEMANDING a Bachelor's for a decent position. In case you hadn't noticed, the days of an employee rising from the mailroom to the board room are over. They want the education before they'll even consider your application.

I know that Conservatives love to blame everything on Gubmint, but the truth of the matter is that industry, commerce and business is demanding the education.

As for the expensive school/cheap school thing, you have a point. But then again, a Degree from a high end school like PSU, Michigan or UCLA looks a heck of a lot better on a resume than a small state sponsored school.

I agree that it's a racket....but spread the blame far enough....it goes deep into the private sector as well as academia and government.

don't forget the contacts. Michigan people hire Michigan people, UCLA people hire UCLA people and so on.

 

[flacaltenn]

Right now the only good degees left in the BA/MA range are premed, prelaw (barely), Engineering, Accounting, and computer sciences.

I beg to disagree: the kid just got his shiny new BS in Bio/Biochem. He was hired right away to supervise in a lab on campus for a bit over $30K/year (as much as he'd have made teaching in the public schools). He's not planning to stay there: he's trying to decide if he'd prefer the PhD in Biomedical Engineering, or the MD and maybe go into forensics......

Comp Sci is really NOT all that hot, especially a naked BS degree: there are waaaay too many experienced people with varied resumes and proven productivity hungry for any 'professional' level job. A lot of 'em are folks we know....

The US needs about 50,000 engineers of one sort or another EVERY YEAR. We don't need any more gawddamb English Lit majors or any of those trendy 'studies' majors, no.

Don't ask me WTF I was thinking 40 years ago while working on my double major in medieval English Lit and historic archaeology, LMAO! And I went and married a Fine Arts grad - not long after he'd been drafted, too! We were lucky AND my DH is some kind of a genius: he now designs multi-media computer-based training for VERY highly technical fields. He's had about 4 different careers now ....

It's not that we need the "certification" from a university, but future workers need some very advanced skills.. There will be no "lever-pulling" factory jobs in the near future. Not even in China.. MAKING stuff is gonna require far less sweat equity and more flexibility in the definition of a job.. I don't care HOW we get there. Staying for a PhD ain't really gonna help even in engineering/science.

But we've got to draft OUR KIDS into the places that will train them to create a NEW PRODUCT every day. And they will have to run the tools, and program the robots, and understand the materials, and do some actual calculus occasionally..

I've known plenty of innovative folks that NEVER went to college. They are a rare breed. A couple were my mentors. If you sit back and look at the all the changes in the workforce, EVERY worker is gonna have to be more self-motivated and FOCUSED on creating and inventing and innovating. Because there will be hardly any jobs available --- that exist just to make a living..

Colleges AND jobs will be changing drastically..

 

[midcan5]

Did you even read the OP? No one is blaming the boomers, the essay is just pointing out that some of the fundamental assumptions underlying our society are wrong, and that we are going to hit a wall if we don't admit that the economy is not driven by wishful thinking.

Did you. "To the baby boom generation, a college diploma was the Ring of the Nibelung; a mystical object which granted you the power to rule your world. It was something to be quested for; sacrifices along the way would be proven worthwhile in the end."
....
"My ultimate complaint with the higher education obsession is geared towards our social engineers themselves. Having so thoroughly convinced themselves and others that the economy needs the aggressive action of government authority, government money, and government schools, they are still sticking to the old model despite growing evidence that it has seized up, like an engine without oil."

You didn't answer my question, what is going to burst? This is another conservative meme, education, but I'll hold off more comment till you answer. Burst and consequences: elucidate please.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Did you even read the OP? No one is blaming the boomers, the essay is just pointing out that some of the fundamental assumptions underlying our society are wrong, and that we are going to hit a wall if we don't admit that the economy is not driven by wishful thinking.

Did you. "To the baby boom generation, a college diploma was the Ring of the Nibelung; a mystical object which granted you the power to rule your world. It was something to be quested for; sacrifices along the way would be proven worthwhile in the end."
....
"My ultimate complaint with the higher education obsession is geared towards our social engineers themselves. Having so thoroughly convinced themselves and others that the economy needs the aggressive action of government authority, government money, and government schools, they are still sticking to the old model despite growing evidence that it has seized up, like an engine without oil."

You didn't answer my question, what is going to burst? This is another conservative meme, education, but I'll hold off more comment till you answer. Burst and consequences: elucidate please.

Congratulations on cutting and pasting from my post without actually reading it.

Are you trying to say that Democrats and Republicans both have not tried to argue that education is a reward in and of itself because an education automatically grants you more earning potential? Why is this suddenly a problem that is only caused by conservatives? Do you know what that current grads are having a harder time finding jobs? New lawyers had a 45% unemployment rate two years ago, do you think it is going to magically improve over the next 4 years as current law students continue to graduate? What do you think is going to happen to the economy when thousands of students default on student loan debts in the 6 figure range simply because they believed the lie that a law degree is sure fire way to get a job?

Why Attending Law School Is The Worst Career Decision You'll Ever Make - Forbes

 

[PaulS1950]

There are a lot of reasons to get a "higher" education. None of them include preparing oneself for a job. That higher education was supposed to teach you where to find the answers to the questions you copme up against. It was supposed to make you a more rounded and social person. While there are "jobs" out there that seem to demand a certain degree in a specific field there will always be those who are inventive enough and knowledgable enough in a single field to be better off financially than most of the graduates and post graduates in the nation. There will always be that top 10% of the sales force that make more money with less education than the CEO of the company makes.
A lawyer working at a firm makes a living wage but the owner of the practice - whether he/she is a lawyer or not will make many times what the practicing lawyer is making. Most places that I know of require auto-mechanics to have at least an AA degree and yet they wouldn't consider hiring me with a PhD. I would be considered "over-qualified" for the position.
An education is good for the individual and is typically good for more pay in a better career field than those available to to lesser educated folk. It is not a "go directly to Park Place and collect $200 for passing Go" card in the game of life. Smart work, diligence and tenacity will get you further than an education in most circumstances. If, however, you want to work in leading edge biometrics or astronomics then you better have an education along with the rest.

 

[midcan5]

...Are you trying to say that Democrats and Republicans both have not tried to argue that education is a reward in and of itself because an education automatically grants you more earning potential? Why is this suddenly a problem that is only caused by conservatives? Do you know what that current grads are having a harder time finding jobs? New lawyers had a 45% unemployment rate two years ago, do you think it is going to magically improve over the next 4 years as current law students continue to graduate? What do you think is going to happen to the economy when thousands of students default on student loan debts in the 6 figure range simply because they believed the lie that a law degree is sure fire way to get a job?

What is going to burst? Paying back school loans is only a problem if we have the shenanigans we had before 2008. Job demand always changes, I know several lawyers and a few recent grads. The recent grads all have jobs, they were at the top of their class and hired by big firms or the state. Maybe connections helped too, they have always mattered. But work is constantly changing as demand changes. America's biggest problem is competing in a global market and not education. Education is a conservative dead horse your ideology uses a distraction from real issues. Check PC's constant castigation of education and teachers, or the conservative meme of liberal professors brain washing their students, or the useless education of subjects because they don't directly tie into a work activity. You are missing my point here and your point is again offered in this editorial which again repeats all the conservative memes and other assorted nonsense.

The Imaginative Conservative: Dark Satanic Mills of Mis-Education: Some Proposals for Reform

Or for those interested in a more valid point of view the piece below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/sunday-dialogue-transforming-our-schools.html

 

[Quantum Windbag]

...Are you trying to say that Democrats and Republicans both have not tried to argue that education is a reward in and of itself because an education automatically grants you more earning potential? Why is this suddenly a problem that is only caused by conservatives? Do you know what that current grads are having a harder time finding jobs? New lawyers had a 45% unemployment rate two years ago, do you think it is going to magically improve over the next 4 years as current law students continue to graduate? What do you think is going to happen to the economy when thousands of students default on student loan debts in the 6 figure range simply because they believed the lie that a law degree is sure fire way to get a job?

What is going to burst? Paying back school loans is only a problem if we have the shenanigans we had before 2008. Job demand always changes, I know several lawyers and a few recent grads. The recent grads all have jobs, they were at the top of their class and hired by big firms or the state. Maybe connections helped too, they have always mattered. But work is constantly changing as demand changes. America's biggest problem is competing in a global market and not education. Education is a conservative dead horse your ideology uses a distraction from real issues. Check PC's constant castigation of education and teachers, or the conservative meme of liberal professors brain washing their students, or the useless education of subjects because they don't directly tie into a work activity. You are missing my point here and your point is again offered in this editorial which again repeats all the conservative memes and other assorted nonsense.

The Imaginative Conservative: Dark Satanic Mills of Mis-Education: Some Proposals for Reform

Or for those interested in a more valid point of view the piece below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/sunday-dialogue-transforming-our-schools.html

Believe it or not, the only way to answer that question is to get you to think. I know that gives you a headache, which is why you always post quotes, but you really should make an effort to answer the questions I asked you.

 

[jwoodie]

The biggest lie in higher education is that "affordability" is a function of government subsidies rather than the cost of providing that education. Why should professors make $100,000+ per year for working less than 20 hours per week?

I suppose it depends on of what one is a professor. The ones in my family all work much more than 20 hours a week.

I suppose those who've never had to prep a class don't realize the 5-20 hours of development time which goes into a single hour's 'new' lecture? Not to mention the time spent in reading papers to grade 'em, counselling and advising students, attending assorted meetings, reading papers to keep up in the field, supervising labs, and attempting to fulfil the dictum of 'publish or perish'..... Oh, and making sure the textbooks are going to be there - after one has researched to select texts! And ordering lab supplies and .......

The 'question' above is rather like asking why ballerinas should get paid serious money when they only do three two-hour performances a week.

What you say may have some merit regarding NEW teachers and professors (who are also paid the least), but, from my personal experience, it is vastly overrated for the tenured majority. I know retired professors who continue to teach (i.e., double dip) with ZERO prep time.

At any rate this begs the question of affordability of education, which is almost entirely driven by faculty and administrative salaries. Without the massive government subsidies we now have, these costs would be much lower and education much more affordable.

 

[Bfgrn]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

It is happening...

Erie Community College :: Corporate Training

Apprenticeships / Skilled Trades
Computer / Information Technology
Green Energy
Manufacturing / Technical Skills
Professional Development
Quality Management Systems
Safety & Environmental Health

 

[midcan5]

....Believe it or not, the only way to answer that question is to get you to think. I know that gives you a headache, which is why you always post quotes, but you really should make an effort to answer the questions I asked you.

What question? The bubble of the right wing propaganda machine is so deep I don't think you realize there is no question in your burst prognosis. The conservative opinion writer in the link uses the same words you use proving how efficient the RW prop machine is. But there is no context to either yours or his commentary, you guys simply need a scapegoat rather than an analysis. So now baby boomers and the GI bill have attained some magical power and thus exist outside the context in which they were created and in which they grew and developed. I'm beginning to think this is all over your head.

PS Education is a reward in itself but your implied concern with making money is superficial and materialistic. Learning is its own reward.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

....Believe it or not, the only way to answer that question is to get you to think. I know that gives you a headache, which is why you always post quotes, but you really should make an effort to answer the questions I asked you.

What question? The bubble of the right wing propaganda machine is so deep I don't think you realize there is no question in your burst prognosis. The conservative opinion writer in the link uses the same words you use proving how efficient the RW prop machine is. But there is no context to either yours or his commentary, you guys simply need a scapegoat rather than an analysis. So now baby boomers and the GI bill have attained some magical power and thus exist outside the context in which they were created and in which they grew and developed. I'm beginning to think this is all over your head.

PS Education is a reward in itself but your implied concern with making money is superficial and materialistic. Learning is its own reward.

Questions.

Go back and reread the post you tried to pretend was about something else, the one where I challenged you to explain all those facts you like to pretend are part of a right wing conspiracy.

 

[Trajan]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

my experience was that the 2 fortune 500 co's I worked for would hire you if you had a simple BA or BS over even experienced folks that didn't, the idea being that you had proven you had the discipline to complete a secondary degree prgm. aside from just having graduated high school and WERE there by, trainable.

I don't think that has the same cachet today that it had in the 90's....

 

[NYcarbineer]

I think the bigger lie is that one has to go to school to recieve an education.

Right. Enter your adult life without an education,

and you'll get one real quick.