Education: The Big Lie

[Quantum Windbag]

I came across a link to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

 

[Avatar4321]

I think the bigger lie is that one has to go to school to recieve an education.

 

[auditor0007]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

I would go along with that, if it was set up correctly. We would still have the problem that an education is not a guarantee of a job. Even Apple can't employ everyone who graduates from college even if it is specifically designed to meet their needs.

 

[Steelplate]

the biggest issue I have with education is the emphasis on degrees in the workplace. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you are, or how intelligent you are. Your earnings potential is severely limited.

The second biggest issue is the cost involved in attaining that degree. We have a 529 account for both of our kids....our oldest got a four year degree from Penn State and even with the help of the 529 account, he still ended up $26k in debt with student loans. If we hadn't planned....he would have been about $100k in debt....before he started his life. That's way too much to saddle a 22year old with before he even gets his first "career" oriented job.

even two year degrees from Tech schools cost about 10k/year and your earnings potential is lower after you get it.

Community colleges, which used to fill that void with affordable Associates degree programs have slowly been swallowed up by private Tech schools, or have become satellite campuses of larger and more expensive Universities.

The bad thing about the tech schools is that credits don't transfer if one does want to go on and get a Bachelor's. The bad thing about satellite campuses os that they charge the same as their main campuses.

It's a bad situation all around.

 

[editec]

Those who tell us that education will solve the problem of a fibrilating economy are either incapable of understanding the true nature of this economy or simply people who are attempting to blame the VICTIMS of this economy.


There are far fewer billets (that is to say decent paying jobs) than there are qualified people to fill them in most cases.

There are, of course, some types of employment that lacks qualified candidates, but compared to the numbers of people who are unemployed, they are insignificant in number.

And if everybody were qualified enough to take those few open jobs, and did so, too such that wasn't a single open job left in America?

This nation would still have far too many unemployed people because the economy continues to sluff off jobs that formerly were needed.

 

[Katzndogz]

The biggest lie of all is that passing with good grades means an education has been received. That's how come we have graduates with high GPAs who can't read, write or do simple arithmetic.

 

[martybegan]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

The blame for a liberal arts education being pointless lies squarely with those teaching it. Before college became high school plus, a liberal arts degree was based on a classical education, that taught logic, reasoning, eloquence and intellect, all traits that were viable in most non specialized areas of employment. The onset of an academia dominated by one side of the poltical spectrum during the 60's and the onset of poltical corectness, followed by the watering down of the requirements of the degree has eliminated the 4 traits I mentioned above as the outcome of having a BA in Liberal arts. You are not taught to think critically, to weigh all the views, you are not taught the classics anymore, instead you get the "flavor of the month" modern author.

Right now the only good degees left in the BA/MA range are premed, prelaw (barely), Engineering, Accounting, and computer sciences.

 

[there4eyeM]

The biggest problem with education is what is not taught.

Students are not taught the realities of how perceptions work.
They are not taught how language works to control what and how we communicate.
They are not taught how words affect the subconscious mind.
They are not taught the simple facts about the universe and the consequences of discoveries in physics.

This does not mean a university level intense study of these subjects. Merely the basic facts about all these are easily understood by a ten year old and are necessary to being enabled to think clearly and avoid being manipulated excessively. Equipped with these tools, citizens would be better prepared to deal with the claims and urgings of salesmen and politicians. They could better handle the challenges of foreign ideas and religions. They could more intelligently be themselves.

Of course, that is why all this is not taught.

 

[MHunterB]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.

If you pay any attention at all to the politics of our nation, you cannot escape the rhetoric. Every single elected official and candidate for office has to give the same perfunctory line about how our economy cannot be healed without greater emphasis on education at all levels.
This is because we became accustomed to having a massive, heavily capitalized economy with large markets for specific services. When the baby boom generation came of age, they were told to attend college and learn how to take advantage of the tertiary economy (service and retail sector).
To the baby boom generation, it was always assumed that there would be enough capital to support a highly productive economy, which would always be able to generate the wealth necessary to support the service and government sectors.
This led to a model of economic growth based on education as the source of employment opportunities. This shouldn’t be new to anybody; I don’t think you are allowed to leave the fourth grade without hearing the lecture about how education makes you more valuable to employers.
This all assumed the existence of a functional, rational economy, and therein lies the fatal flaw of the whole Education-Employment model of economic growth. You are probably still better off with a college degree than without, it is a personal achievement, but it isn’t the safe investment that it once was.

College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

We already have such 'co-op' programs in place at many schools. Some schools do such an excellent job of educating their students in the fields that a degree from them is a virtual guarantee of future employment - WPI, RPI, Drexel (when it was DIT) to name a couple that I'm aware of.

Of course those are in the field of engineering - which is an incorrigably practical one, as the theoretical folks will note with curled lip......

 

[martybegan]

I came across a lie to this blog today, and thought the guy made some really good points.



College, Politics, and Wagnerian Opera - The Conservative Reader

The basic assumption behind the value of an education is that economic growth has unlimited potential. That obviously does not apply in a recession or a period of extended slow growth. The problem is that, even when the economy was booming, the education bubble was ready to burst. We haven't seen it yet, but it is going to crash. We need to prepare for it now and accept that education is not going to fix our economy.

The liberal arts education is pointless. Just getting a BS or BA is of little value to most employers because they still need to train you to do the job. Employers should be working with universities telling them exactly what they need to teach to prepare students for positions within their firms. A student could sign up for a program that would include an internship with their future employer and a guarantee of employment upon finishing their schooling. These types of programs would work great in many industries, for both blue collar and white collar jobs.

We already have such 'co-op' programs in place at many schools. Some schools do such an excellent job of educating their students in the fields that a degree from them is a virtual guarantee of future employment - WPI, RPI, Drexel (when it was DIT) to name a couple that I'm aware of.

Of course those are in the field of engineering - which is an incorrigably practical one, as the theoretical folks will note with curled lip......

We are proud to be the "Oompa-Loompas" of Science!

 

[MHunterB]

Right now the only good degees left in the BA/MA range are premed, prelaw (barely), Engineering, Accounting, and computer sciences.

I beg to disagree: the kid just got his shiny new BS in Bio/Biochem. He was hired right away to supervise in a lab on campus for a bit over $30K/year (as much as he'd have made teaching in the public schools). He's not planning to stay there: he's trying to decide if he'd prefer the PhD in Biomedical Engineering, or the MD and maybe go into forensics......

Comp Sci is really NOT all that hot, especially a naked BS degree: there are waaaay too many experienced people with varied resumes and proven productivity hungry for any 'professional' level job. A lot of 'em are folks we know....

The US needs about 50,000 engineers of one sort or another EVERY YEAR. We don't need any more gawddamb English Lit majors or any of those trendy 'studies' majors, no.

Don't ask me WTF I was thinking 40 years ago while working on my double major in medieval English Lit and historic archaeology, LMAO! And I went and married a Fine Arts grad - not long after he'd been drafted, too! We were lucky AND my DH is some kind of a genius: he now designs multi-media computer-based training for VERY highly technical fields. He's had about 4 different careers now ....

 

[MHunterB]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCRRe72mwwY]Peggy Seeger.Gonna Be An Engineer - YouTube[/ame]

I had to include this song: it's been one of my favorites. My Dad always told me I could be anything I wanted. And yes, the singer is Pete's sister (and married to Ewan MacColl)

My family ARE engineers: it's a state of mind, a state of being, a POV, not simply a 'job'.

 

[martybegan]

Right now the only good degees left in the BA/MA range are premed, prelaw (barely), Engineering, Accounting, and computer sciences.

I beg to disagree: the kid just got his shiny new BS in Bio/Biochem. He was hired right away to supervise in a lab on campus for a bit over $30K/year (as much as he'd have made teaching in the public schools). He's not planning to stay there: he's trying to decide if he'd prefer the PhD in Biomedical Engineering, or the MD and maybe go into forensics......

Comp Sci is really NOT all that hot, especially a naked BS degree: there are waaaay too many experienced people with varied resumes and proven productivity hungry for any 'professional' level job. A lot of 'em are folks we know....

The US needs about 50,000 engineers of one sort or another EVERY YEAR. We don't need any more gawddamb English Lit majors or any of those trendy 'studies' majors, no.

Don't ask me WTF I was thinking 40 years ago while working on my double major in medieval English Lit and historic archaeology, LMAO! And I went and married a Fine Arts grad - not long after he'd been drafted, too! We were lucky AND my DH is some kind of a genius: he now designs multi-media computer-based training for VERY highly technical fields. He's had about 4 different careers now ....

I would consider a BA/BS in Biochem/Bio as part of the pre-med track. If you dont want to do a MD you need at least a masters, and probably a phD to really work in the field.

 

[MHunterB]

Yup - the kid knows that, although he really wants to work in medical research. You have access to about 10 times the grant money if you've got 'MD' after your name - but it takes so long and costs so much to get that (MD)..... He's considering the NIH medical scientist program OR going with the Navy.

I am admittedly prejudiced - but I think that we need to give preference in med and engineering school admissions to US citizens (withOUT lowering standards!), and support with scholarships and grants as needed. That MD is going to cost something like $300K.

I know some folks who are here on those lovely visas which are given to foreign nationals who qualify for highly skilled jobs that no Americans can be found to fill. Yes, one IS a 'rocket scientist'.

Why have we not been working on training our own all this time????

I suspect the answer is that the PC crowd didn't want the 'Gammas' and 'Deltas' to have hurt feelings that they were never going to be 'rocket scientist' material no matter how they tried. It was considered 'elitist' to have any support in our town for the kids with academic talent - but 'everyone' supported going all-out for sports programs ?????

 

[jwoodie]

The biggest lie in higher education is that "affordability" is a function of government subsidies rather than the cost of providing that education. Why should professors make $100,000+ per year for working less than 20 hours per week?

 

[martybegan]

Yup - the kid knows that, although he really wants to work in medical research. You have access to about 10 times the grant money if you've got 'MD' after your name - but it takes so long and costs so much to get that (MD)..... He's considering the NIH medical scientist program OR going with the Navy.

I am admittedly prejudiced - but I think that we need to give preference in med and engineering school admissions to US citizens (withOUT lowering standards!), and support with scholarships and grants as needed. That MD is going to cost something like $300K.

I know some folks who are here on those lovely visas which are given to foreign nationals who qualify for highly skilled jobs that no Americans can be found to fill. Yes, one IS a 'rocket scientist'.

Why have we not been working on training our own all this time????

I suspect the answer is that the PC crowd didn't want the 'Gammas' and 'Deltas' to have hurt feelings that they were never going to be 'rocket scientist' material no matter how they tried. It was considered 'elitist' to have any support in our town for the kids with academic talent - but 'everyone' supported going all-out for sports programs ?????

Its also that certain degrees are actually hard, and to a large portion of the population college is a 4-6 year post high school party.

At my college most Engineers could not do the usual out every tuesday and thursday night. Engineers night was every other wednesday, because most of us had labs every alternate week, with a free weekday morning (GASP!!) every other thursday.

Its not that Engineers didnt drink as much as the others, its that we concentrated ours into fewer days, and usually it was friday happy hour.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

the biggest issue I have with education is the emphasis on degrees in the workplace. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you are, or how intelligent you are. Your earnings potential is severely limited.

The second biggest issue is the cost involved in attaining that degree. We have a 529 account for both of our kids....our oldest got a four year degree from Penn State and even with the help of the 529 account, he still ended up $26k in debt with student loans. If we hadn't planned....he would have been about $100k in debt....before he started his life. That's way too much to saddle a 22year old with before he even gets his first "career" oriented job.

even two year degrees from Tech schools cost about 10k/year and your earnings potential is lower after you get it.

Community colleges, which used to fill that void with affordable Associates degree programs have slowly been swallowed up by private Tech schools, or have become satellite campuses of larger and more expensive Universities.

The bad thing about the tech schools is that credits don't transfer if one does want to go on and get a Bachelor's. The bad thing about satellite campuses os that they charge the same as their main campuses.

It's a bad situation all around.

The single largest driver for the cost of education is the drive to make sure everyone gets one. Those student loans that make it easier for kids to "afford" more expensive colleges artificially increase the demand for those colleges without doing anything to increase the supply of classrooms. If you qualify for an expensive college you qualify for a less expensive college that you can afford.

 

[Steelplate]

the biggest issue I have with education is the emphasis on degrees in the workplace. If you don't have one, it doesn't matter how good of a worker you are, or how intelligent you are. Your earnings potential is severely limited.

The second biggest issue is the cost involved in attaining that degree. We have a 529 account for both of our kids....our oldest got a four year degree from Penn State and even with the help of the 529 account, he still ended up $26k in debt with student loans. If we hadn't planned....he would have been about $100k in debt....before he started his life. That's way too much to saddle a 22year old with before he even gets his first "career" oriented job.

even two year degrees from Tech schools cost about 10k/year and your earnings potential is lower after you get it.

Community colleges, which used to fill that void with affordable Associates degree programs have slowly been swallowed up by private Tech schools, or have become satellite campuses of larger and more expensive Universities.

The bad thing about the tech schools is that credits don't transfer if one does want to go on and get a Bachelor's. The bad thing about satellite campuses os that they charge the same as their main campuses.

It's a bad situation all around.

The single largest driver for the cost of education is the drive to make sure everyone gets one. Those student loans that make it easier for kids to "afford" more expensive colleges artificially increase the demand for those colleges without doing anything to increase the supply of classrooms. If you qualify for an expensive college you qualify for a less expensive college that you can afford.

and what is the cause of that drive to make sure everyone gets one? Oh yeah.....employers DEMANDING a Bachelor's for a decent position. In case you hadn't noticed, the days of an employee rising from the mailroom to the board room are over. They want the education before they'll even consider your application.

I know that Conservatives love to blame everything on Gubmint, but the truth of the matter is that industry, commerce and business is demanding the education.

As for the expensive school/cheap school thing, you have a point. But then again, a Degree from a high end school like PSU, Michigan or UCLA looks a heck of a lot better on a resume than a small state sponsored school.

I agree that it's a racket....but spread the blame far enough....it goes deep into the private sector as well as academia and government.

 

[MHunterB]

Yup - the kid knows that, although he really wants to work in medical research. You have access to about 10 times the grant money if you've got 'MD' after your name - but it takes so long and costs so much to get that (MD)..... He's considering the NIH medical scientist program OR going with the Navy.

I am admittedly prejudiced - but I think that we need to give preference in med and engineering school admissions to US citizens (withOUT lowering standards!), and support with scholarships and grants as needed. That MD is going to cost something like $300K.

I know some folks who are here on those lovely visas which are given to foreign nationals who qualify for highly skilled jobs that no Americans can be found to fill. Yes, one IS a 'rocket scientist'.

Why have we not been working on training our own all this time????

I suspect the answer is that the PC crowd didn't want the 'Gammas' and 'Deltas' to have hurt feelings that they were never going to be 'rocket scientist' material no matter how they tried. It was considered 'elitist' to have any support in our town for the kids with academic talent - but 'everyone' supported going all-out for sports programs ?????

Its also that certain degrees are actually hard, and to a large portion of the population college is a 4-6 year post high school party.

At my college most Engineers could not do the usual out every tuesday and thursday night. Engineers night was every other wednesday, because most of us had labs every alternate week, with a free weekday morning (GASP!!) every other thursday.

Its not that Engineers didnt drink as much as the others, its that we concentrated ours into fewer days, and usually it was friday happy hour.

Giving rise to the filk song lyrics:
"We are, we are, we are, we are the engineers!
We can, we can, we can, we can demolish forty beers......."

(to the tune of 'Macnamara's Band')