Education Dept. : BDS activity against Israel will be defined as anti-Semitism

[Shusha]

Opposing the actions of Israel’s government is not anti-semitism.

We agree. Opposing the rights of the Jewish people and the State of Israel as expressed in identical ways by other ethnic and national Peoples IS anti-semitism, though

Here's a list of some BDS protest signs. Legitimate criticism of Israel's government actions or anti-semitism?

"Gaza is the current day Holocaust"
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
"Israel is an apartheid state"
"Resistance is a right"
"Jews are terrorists"
"Israel steals Palestinian water"
"911 was a Zionist job"
"Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto"
"Israel: no right to exist"
"Everything about Israel is illegal"
"State of Israel terrorizing its neighbors and the whole world since 1948"
"Jews haven't learned they need Nazis more than before"
"Racist state"
"Israel is humanities number 1 enemy"
"If you are trying to humanize the oppressor, that's a problem"

Yes Israel’s government has inspired a lot of passion against them with their actions.

Denial. You label it as "passion" instead of correctly identifying it for what it is. Do better. That's the point of this thread.

 

[Indeependent]

We’re hated because we have God directed standards.
You’re hated by people you love.

Palestinians say the same thing. You’re peas in a pod.

You worship the millions who treat you like slaves.
Ever see a starving Arab in Israel?
Me neither.

I don’t worship anything you nutjob. If I did, I’d want one side or the other in this debate dead the way you do.

We know the target and extent of your hate.

You hated Obama’s government, right? I guess that means you hate America and Americans. We know the target and extent of your hate.

See how that works?

Please let me know when you find a post of mine that is any more critical of Obama than the Repugnishits.

 

[Shusha]

You clearly do not know what the policies of Israel are. You could not name one which actually goes against human rights, or attempts to defend only the Jews of the country.

Colossal ignorance and parroting of "sound bytes" is a constant problem when trying to discuss *cough cough* the policies of the Israeli government. Many (even most) arguing against Israel have no idea what the actual legal documents, policies, treaties and governing customary law say.

 

[BlackFlag]

Everybody has a right to self determination. Well, except for non-Jewish people in Israel now.

THAT is an interesting statement. At least we agree that all peoples have a right to self-determination, including both the Arab Palestinian people and the Jewish people. I hope we also agree that each peoples has a right to national self-determination.

The next question is whether or not groups of each peoples have a right to national self-determination in EVERY place or only in specific places. For example, do the Jewish people in Germany have a right to national self-determination in Germany? That is -- do they have a right to form an independent nation in territory currently under German sovereignty? And also in US territory? And also in Canada, in the UK, in Argentina, in Iran, in Morocco? You get the point, right? The Jewish people have the right to national self-determination in their historical homeland.

I am of Irish ancestry. I live in Canada. If I want to avail myself of my Irish nationality I must go to Ireland.

It is the same with Arab Palestinian people. They do not have a right to self-determination as an independent nation everywhere they find themselves, but only in their homeland. We agree?

Therefore, non-Jews living in Israel have full rights to equality and fair treatment, but do not have rights to a national self-determination in Israel. That national self-determination can only exist in Palestine.

The problem is that we haven't determined where Israel ends and Palestine begins. That is the subject of a peace treaty. The RIGHT to self-determination exists for both peoples. It is recognized by Israel as a right for Arab Palestinians. It is not yet a reality for many reasons. But the right exists.

Jews in Germany have as much right to self-determination as anybody else. In Israel, if a bunch of Jews, having the right to self-determination of course, decided to form a new nation smack in the middle of Israel; let’s say 500 square miles of land; could they do it?

 

[BlackFlag]

Opposing the actions of Israel’s government is not anti-semitism.

We agree. Opposing the rights of the Jewish people and the State of Israel as expressed in identical ways by other ethnic and national Peoples IS anti-semitism, though

Here's a list of some BDS protest signs. Legitimate criticism of Israel's government actions or anti-semitism?

"Gaza is the current day Holocaust"
"From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"
"Israel is an apartheid state"
"Resistance is a right"
"Jews are terrorists"
"Israel steals Palestinian water"
"911 was a Zionist job"
"Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto"
"Israel: no right to exist"
"Everything about Israel is illegal"
"State of Israel terrorizing its neighbors and the whole world since 1948"
"Jews haven't learned they need Nazis more than before"
"Racist state"
"Israel is humanities number 1 enemy"
"If you are trying to humanize the oppressor, that's a problem"

Yes Israel’s government has inspired a lot of passion against them with their actions.

Denial. You label it as "passion" instead of correctly identifying it for what it is. Do better. That's the point of this thread.

If I were an oppressed person, I’d probably hold signs like that against my oppressor too. As another example, I don’t fault Malcolm X at all for advocating different action in the U.S. than what MLK proposed.

 

[BlackFlag]

Opposing the actions of Israel’s government is not anti-semitism.

This is not the issue, no one said it was,
it becomes hate speech when one denies the Jewish people right to self determination, and uses double standards to attack Israeli policies otherwise not used against other countries.

But at the least it has to start with the basic acknowledgment of the boldest antisemitic rhetoric and imagery used in the BDS ranks. Is it going to be denial?

Everybody has a right to self determination. Well, except for non-Jewish people in Israel now.

Same is Arab-Palestine, both of them, but You have no problem with that.
This is called double standard, not used against any other nation but Israel, exactly what was expressed in the article, hence the Education Dept. move.

Oppression by religion is condemned across the 1st world except for 1 country.

And who might that be?

Which nation in the 1st world has passed a motion that only members of one religion have a right to self-determination in that nation?

 

[Shusha]

Jews in Germany have as much right to self-determination as anybody else. In Israel, if a bunch of Jews, having the right to self-determination of course, decided to form a new nation smack in the middle of Israel; let’s say 500 square miles of land; could they do it?

Really? We are discussing NATIONAL self-determination here -- the right to create a State and have full sovereignty over territory. You think that a group of Chinese in San Francisco should be able to create their own nation there? And that Italians in New York City should be able to carve out a territory out of Manhattan and start their own country there?

 

[Shusha]

If I were an oppressed person, I’d probably hold signs like that against my oppressor too.

Identifying Jews or Israel as "oppressor" is problematic. But, even so, I am not arguing against your wish to hold a sign -- I'm arguing that not all signs are legitimate criticisms of Israel's government's policies. And those which are not are hate speech. Specifically, anti-semitism.

The question remains, as the point of this thread, WHY are people like you in such denial? And willing to give hate speech like this a pass?

 

[BlackFlag]

Jews in Germany have as much right to self-determination as anybody else. In Israel, if a bunch of Jews, having the right to self-determination of course, decided to form a new nation smack in the middle of Israel; let’s say 500 square miles of land; could they do it?

Really? We are discussing NATIONAL self-determination here -- the right to create a State and have full sovereignty over territory. You think that a group of Chinese in San Francisco should be able to create their own nation there? And that Italians in New York City should be able to carve out a territory out of Manhattan and start their own country there?

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

 

[BlackFlag]

If I were an oppressed person, I’d probably hold signs like that against my oppressor too.

Identifying Jews or Israel as "oppressor" is problematic. But, even so, I am not arguing against your wish to hold a sign -- I'm arguing that not all signs are legitimate criticisms of Israel's government's policies. And those which are not are hate speech. Specifically, anti-semitism.

The question remains, as the point of this thread, WHY are people like you in such denial? And willing to give hate speech like this a pass?

Yeah, “problematic” for Israel. As it is for all oppressors. I give SOME of it a pass because if I lived under embargo with secondary rights and the constant threat of attack and no hope for justice, I’d consider making signs like that against the people doing that to me too.

 

[Shusha]

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

Here we go with the ignorance. The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel declared independence just like every other State in the world. Israel is not a theocracy. And there is not a single law in Israel which gives Jews special rights -- all are equal.

All peoples have the right to self-determination, right? All peoples have a right to national self-determination, right? Where else if not in their historical homeland? Yes, the Jewish people have a special right to form their nation (State) in a specific territory BECAUSE it is their historical homeland.

Surely you are not going to argue that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination, but in Uganda or Brazil and not in Palestine, are you?

 

[BlackFlag]

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

Here we go with the ignorance. The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel declared independence just like every other State in the world. Israel is not a theocracy. And there is not a single law in Israel which gives Jews special rights -- all are equal.

All peoples have the right to self-determination, right? All peoples have a right to national self-determination, right? Where else if not in their historical homeland? Yes, the Jewish people have a special right to form their nation (State) in a specific territory BECAUSE it is their historical homeland.

Surely you are not going to argue that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination, but in Uganda or Brazil and not in Palestine, are you?

You equate “self-determination” with “national self-determination,” which is nonsense. The only “right” by which Israel was created was the same as every other nation. Some people picked some land and killed or evicted as many people as they needed to to hold that land.

Don’t make me laugh about everyone having the “same rights” either. Not everyone has the right of return, not everyone has a right to self-determibation, not everyone has the right to leave whenever they want to, not everyone has their home destroyed if a family member commits a crime, and on and on.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: BDS activity against Israel will be defined as anti-Semitism
※→ et al,

In its "purest form," I (personally) don't consider the BDS Movement to be anti-Semitic. But in recent years, the movement has taken on a newer complexion; one that transitioned from a political/economic movement, through an anti-Israeli phase and has become very anti-semitic. It is a matter of how and what material they present when they hop, skip and jump from one college community to the next. The question as to whether the activities of the BDS are formulating a hatred against the single greatest ally in the Middle East (State of Israel) as anti-Semitic.

The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movement works to end international support for Israel's oppression of Palestinians and pressure Israel to comply with international law.

(COMMENT)

US politics and the American Domestice Landscape is shifting.

The open pressuring of entertainment personalities, science lecturers, industry production and commercial trade by BDS satellite movements is an incitement to violence and an attempt to show solidarity and approval of with the criminal behaviors of the Arab Palestinians.

You may recall that I, several years ago, considered the BDS Movement to be a legitimate means of political protest. This is not the first time that the Jewish People have faced a national level Boycott, Hitler had commanded a boycott of Jewish businesses in 1933. It is nothing new. However, the Arab Palestinians are not (in any way shape or form) attempting to introduce any assemblance law and order; with the self-governing body that supports programs for the general population. The BDS Movement is not in the habit of putting together a culture anywhere near that of Israel → even when donor nations produce the necessary revenue to build the new infrastructure. Nor does the BDS Movement support the principles of international law concerning friendly relations and co-operation among States. There is absolutely no attempt by the political opponents to try and pursue in good faith negotiations for the settlement of their international disputes. The BDS Movement attempts to paint and present a favorable image of the nebulous regime behind the Arab Palestinian people. The BDS Movement attempts to pass itself off as a program of Public Enlightenment and Education about the sense and plight of the Arab Palestinian as if they were the downtrodden underdog. (Never mentioning the contributions major donors → in the Billions per year.)

​

The manner and type of presentation of most BDS Activities are immediately to impress the audience that Israel is the principal cause of all problems facing the Arab Palestinians. Because each BDS presentation only presents one side of the story. And while Israel is not perfect, the Arab Palestinian cannot reasonably expect the Israelis to take a punch and not respond.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Yeah, “problematic” for Israel. As it is for all oppressors. I give SOME of it a pass because if I lived under embargo with secondary rights and the constant threat of attack and no hope for justice, I’d consider making signs like that against the people doing that to me too.

rylah

I think this response gives us a clue as to why BDS supporters are in such denial about their anti-semitism.

1. They remove all responsibility from one of the actors (in this case the Arab Palestinians). The activities of that particular actor are made invisible.

2. They justify hatred of the other actor within the frame of that invisibility of responsibility.

3. They apply hatred collectively to each member of the group, making each individual member responsible for the actions of the collective actor within that frame of invisibility of responsibility for the other actor, both individually and collectively.

4. They appeal to emotion as a way of justifying hatred. They give themselves permission to hate.




BlackFlag

You state you give SOME of it a pass. Of the examples I gave -- what would you NOT give a pass to?

 

[Shusha]

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

Here we go with the ignorance. The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel declared independence just like every other State in the world. Israel is not a theocracy. And there is not a single law in Israel which gives Jews special rights -- all are equal.

All peoples have the right to self-determination, right? All peoples have a right to national self-determination, right? Where else if not in their historical homeland? Yes, the Jewish people have a special right to form their nation (State) in a specific territory BECAUSE it is their historical homeland.

Surely you are not going to argue that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination, but in Uganda or Brazil and not in Palestine, are you?

You equate “self-determination” with “national self-determination,” which is nonsense. The only “right” by which Israel was created was the same as every other nation. Some people picked some land and killed or evicted as many people as they needed to to hold that land.

Don’t make me laugh about everyone having the “same rights” either. Not everyone has the right of return, not everyone has a right to self-determibation, not everyone has the right to leave whenever they want to, not everyone has their home destroyed if a family member commits a crime, and on and on.

You don't seem to have a very good handle on what you mean by self-determination.

The Jewish people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

The Arab Palestinian people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

I say yes to both. Do you?

 

[BlackFlag]

Yeah, “problematic” for Israel. As it is for all oppressors. I give SOME of it a pass because if I lived under embargo with secondary rights and the constant threat of attack and no hope for justice, I’d consider making signs like that against the people doing that to me too.

rylah

I think this response gives us a clue as to why BDS supporters are in such denial about their anti-semitism.

1. They remove all responsibility from one of the actors (in this case the Arab Palestinians). The activities of that particular actor are made invisible.

2. They justify hatred of the other actor within the frame of that invisibility of responsibility.

3. They apply hatred collectively to each member of the group, making each individual member responsible for the actions of the collective actor within that frame of invisibility of responsibility for the other actor, both individually and collectively.

4. They appeal to emotion as a way of justifying hatred. They give themselves permission to hate.




BlackFlag

You state you give SOME of it a pass. Of the examples I gave -- what would you NOT give a pass to?

You are guilty of all 4 of those things. You remove Israel’s government from any responsibility, you justify hatred for Palestinians within the frame of invisibility for that respinsibility, you apply hatred collectively to each member of the group, and you appeal to emotion to justify hatred (pretending anybody that opposes the actions of Israel’s government as hating Jewish people)

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Opposing the actions of Israel’s government is not anti-semitism.

This is not the issue, no one said it was,
it becomes hate speech when one denies the Jewish people right to self determination, and uses double standards to attack Israeli policies otherwise not used against other countries.

But at the least it has to start with the basic acknowledgment of the boldest antisemitic rhetoric and imagery used in the BDS ranks. Is it going to be denial?

Everybody has a right to self determination. Well, except for non-Jewish people in Israel now.

Same is Arab-Palestine, both of them, but You have no problem with that.
This is called double standard, not used against any other nation but Israel, exactly what was expressed in the article, hence the Education Dept. move.

Oppression by religion is condemned across the 1st world except for 1 country.

53+ mostly Muslim countries. ONE mostly Jewish country. STFU.

 

[BlackFlag]

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

Here we go with the ignorance. The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel declared independence just like every other State in the world. Israel is not a theocracy. And there is not a single law in Israel which gives Jews special rights -- all are equal.

All peoples have the right to self-determination, right? All peoples have a right to national self-determination, right? Where else if not in their historical homeland? Yes, the Jewish people have a special right to form their nation (State) in a specific territory BECAUSE it is their historical homeland.

Surely you are not going to argue that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination, but in Uganda or Brazil and not in Palestine, are you?

You equate “self-determination” with “national self-determination,” which is nonsense. The only “right” by which Israel was created was the same as every other nation. Some people picked some land and killed or evicted as many people as they needed to to hold that land.

Don’t make me laugh about everyone having the “same rights” either. Not everyone has the right of return, not everyone has a right to self-determibation, not everyone has the right to leave whenever they want to, not everyone has their home destroyed if a family member commits a crime, and on and on.

You don't seem to have a very good handle on what you mean by self-determination.

The Jewish people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

The Arab Palestinian people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

I say yes to both. Do you?

No. Nobody inherently has that right. You either form a country through agreements with those around you, or you take land away from others to make your country. Declaring a place where other people live as your country because you claim historic rights is no different than just taking land away from others. Instant of historical nonsense, colonists during colonial times claimed a divine mandate to bring religion and civilization to others; that too was actually just taking land from others. Israel will not continue exising becaise of some historical mandate; it will exist as long as it can defend itself like any other country. Pissing off the world by oppressing descendants and sympathizers of the people who used to govern that land is not the best idea.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

That’s how the UN created Israel. Israel has since established a theocracy and declared that Jews have special rights. They have a special right to self determination there, where as in Germany, for example, they have an equal right to self determination as anybody else.

Here we go with the ignorance. The UN did not "create" Israel. Israel declared independence just like every other State in the world. Israel is not a theocracy. And there is not a single law in Israel which gives Jews special rights -- all are equal.

All peoples have the right to self-determination, right? All peoples have a right to national self-determination, right? Where else if not in their historical homeland? Yes, the Jewish people have a special right to form their nation (State) in a specific territory BECAUSE it is their historical homeland.

Surely you are not going to argue that Arab Palestinians have a right to self-determination, but in Uganda or Brazil and not in Palestine, are you?

You equate “self-determination” with “national self-determination,” which is nonsense. The only “right” by which Israel was created was the same as every other nation. Some people picked some land and killed or evicted as many people as they needed to to hold that land.

Don’t make me laugh about everyone having the “same rights” either. Not everyone has the right of return, not everyone has a right to self-determibation, not everyone has the right to leave whenever they want to, not everyone has their home destroyed if a family member commits a crime, and on and on.

You don't seem to have a very good handle on what you mean by self-determination.

The Jewish people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

The Arab Palestinian people have a right to national self-determination (to form a State which represents and protects their particular culture, language, traditions and history) in their historical homeland. Yes or no?

I say yes to both. Do you?

No. Nobody inherently has that right. You either form a country through agreements with those around you, or you take land away from others to make your country. Declaring a place where other people live as your country because you claim historic rights is no different than just taking land away from others. Instant of historical nonsense, colonists during colonial times claimed a divine mandate to bring religion and civilization to others; that too was actually just taking land from others. Israel will not continue exising becaise of some historical mandate; it will exist as long as it can defend itself like any other country. Pissing off the world by oppressing descendants and sympathizers of the people who used to govern that land is not the best idea.

If they are unhappy they should move

 

[Sixties Fan]

Everybody has a right to self determination. Well, except for non-Jewish people in Israel now.

THAT is an interesting statement. At least we agree that all peoples have a right to self-determination, including both the Arab Palestinian people and the Jewish people. I hope we also agree that each peoples has a right to national self-determination.

The next question is whether or not groups of each peoples have a right to national self-determination in EVERY place or only in specific places. For example, do the Jewish people in Germany have a right to national self-determination in Germany? That is -- do they have a right to form an independent nation in territory currently under German sovereignty? And also in US territory? And also in Canada, in the UK, in Argentina, in Iran, in Morocco? You get the point, right? The Jewish people have the right to national self-determination in their historical homeland.

I am of Irish ancestry. I live in Canada. If I want to avail myself of my Irish nationality I must go to Ireland.

It is the same with Arab Palestinian people. They do not have a right to self-determination as an independent nation everywhere they find themselves, but only in their homeland. We agree?

Therefore, non-Jews living in Israel have full rights to equality and fair treatment, but do not have rights to a national self-determination in Israel. That national self-determination can only exist in Palestine.

The problem is that we haven't determined where Israel ends and Palestine begins. That is the subject of a peace treaty. The RIGHT to self-determination exists for both peoples. It is recognized by Israel as a right for Arab Palestinians. It is not yet a reality for many reasons. But the right exists.

Jews in Germany have as much right to self-determination as anybody else. In Israel, if a bunch of Jews, having the right to self-determination of course, decided to form a new nation smack in the middle of Israel; let’s say 500 square miles of land; could they do it?

Jews, or any other group of non indigenous Germans have the right to create a State within Germany in order to create a State for themselves?

You clearly do NOT know the meaning of self-determination and are simply throwing pasta against the walls.

Whatever sticks to you.....