Education and Separation of Church

[midcan5]

'How Christian Were the Founders?' By Russell Shorto

"I consider myself a Christian fundamentalist,” he announced almost as soon as we sat down. He also identifies himself as a young-earth creationist who believes that the earth was created in six days, as the book of Genesis has it, less than 10,000 years ago. He went on to explain how his Christian perspective both governs his work on the state board and guides him in the current effort to adjust American-history textbooks to highlight the role of Christianity. “Textbooks are mostly the product of the liberal establishment, and they’re written with the idea that our religion and our liberty are in conflict,” he said. “But Christianity has had a deep impact on our system. The men who wrote the Constitution were Christians who knew the Bible. Our idea of individual rights comes from the Bible. The Western development of the free-market system owes a lot to biblical principles." Don McLeroy - School Board member


What can one make of the above? The same people we criticize for extremism in other religions control the educational curriculum right here in the US.

How is a Christian fundamentalist different from an Islamic fundamentalist? And how can a modern diverse society function fairly and democratically when fundamentalists run things? Iran or Texas, what really is the difference? And I am not a fan of the Atheism movement - but may become one soon.


"This year’s social-studies review has drawn the most attention for the battles over what names should be included in the roll call of history. But while ignoring Kennedy and upgrading Gingrich are significant moves, something more fundamental is on the agenda. The one thing that underlies the entire program of the nation’s Christian conservative activists is, naturally, religion. But it isn’t merely the case that their Christian orientation shapes their opinions on gay marriage, abortion and government spending. More elementally, they hold that the United States was founded by devout Christians and according to biblical precepts. This belief provides what they consider not only a theological but also, ultimately, a judicial grounding to their positions on social questions. When they proclaim that the United States is a “Christian nation,” they are not referring to the percentage of the population that ticks a certain box in a survey or census but to the country’s roots and the intent of the founders."

Magazine Preview - How Christian Were the Founders? - NYTimes.com

 

[rdean]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

 

[uscitizen]

According to the bible christians are to raise up their children in the ways of the lord so they will not depart from them.

The 16 years of programming did not stick on me.
But it was in the same denomination of Christianity as Palin, Swaggart and Baker.

 

[California Girl]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise. In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people? I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people? I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

 

[ItHappens]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

All we are talking about is Creation vs. Evolution. Evolution is nothing more than a theory by the Godless to disprove the existence of God. Which is never going to happen.
You are right in that we need to concentrate on the "real" world.
How or Who created the planet is not going to help the next generation compete with their counterparts around the world.

 

[Oddball]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Exactly why we need to get the cult of Big Daddy Big Gubmint out of the edumacation system.

 

[Luissa]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

All we are talking about is Creation vs. Evolution. Evolution is nothing more than a theory by the Godless to disprove the existence of God. Which is never going to happen.
You are right in that we need to concentrate on the "real" world.
How or Who created the planet is not going to help the next generation compete with their counterparts around the world.

That is where I think you are wrong. Evolution does not prove their isn't a God, just proves we evolve which is probably God's plan.
And there is a lot more proof backing up evolution, than there is proving God exists.

 

[Bezukhov]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Exactly why we need to get the cult of Big Daddy Big Gubmint out of the edumacation system.

Exactly. That is the main reason to end government involvement with education; to avoid any attempt by one group to foist it's world view on others at gunpoint.

 

[del]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

All we are talking about is Creation vs. Evolution. Evolution is nothing more than a theory by the Godless to disprove the existence of God. Which is never going to happen.
You are right in that we need to concentrate on the "real" world.
How or Who created the planet is not going to help the next generation compete with their counterparts around the world.

darwin was a religious man who was also a scientist.

fail

 

[germanguy]

Well, as we will rarely agree in matters of faith, we should keep our fingers from this subject.

I firmly believe, that there should be a common base of knowledge, methods and ideas in every society, all citizens should know about.
Apart from that, you can do what you want. And read and believe what you want.

My Biology teacher taught us the Theory of Evolution, what the Bible said about it and taugth us about some other religions ideas about it. In the end, he told us, that we should think by ourselves, weigh the arguments and then decide what and who to believe.
Interestingly of approx. thirty people in class, about two or three firmly believed in what is today called Creationism. Emphasis on believe.

Like that any education should be, emphasis on education not indoctrination.

Therefore I do not trust any person with a personal or religious agenda in public service.
We all should learn instruments and methods and facts, not only one official version of what some people consider being THE TRUTH.

Perhaps the theory of evolution is wrong, still, it exsplains a lot of things.

Creationism does this not.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QrGAJJ2sSc]YouTube - eddie izzard vs. creationism[/ame]


regards
ze germanguy

 

[ScottBernard]

Some good responses in this thread.
I only ask the OP not to get turned off by the religious fundamentalists.
There is a seemingly endless amount of 'soft-headedness' out there, as well as narrow-mindedness.
America has a very storied history, and religion is certainly a part of it; but I bristle when people claim that it was founded as a Christian nation. Those claims are illusory. Safer to say the nation was founded by men of faith.
We can go all the way back through the Anglican Church, the Protestant reformation, and the schism in the Christian church from the Byzantine.
The Founders were more products of the 'Enlightenment" of that era. And I believe there were more informed by this.
I think science points to a God; not disproves that there is a God. As for evolution, it is still just a theory. Just like the Big Bang theory.
Atheism is a cop out in my opinion.

 

[Old Rocks]

The United States of America was founded as a secular nation to avoid the decades of bloody strife that Europe saw prior to our Revolution.

While many of the Founding Fathers were Christians, the primary ones were Diests. Many held the clergy contempt for the hypocrisy they saw there.


The Christian Nation Myth
Farrell Till
Whenever the Supreme Court makes a decision that in any way restricts the intrusion of religion into the affairs of government, a flood of editorials, articles, and letters protesting the ruling is sure to appear in the newspapers. Many protesters decry these decisions on the grounds that they conflict with the wishes and intents of the "founding fathers."

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816
The Christian Nation Myth

 

[Old Rocks]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise.

That is exactly what I and others here are doing. We do not want to see our grandchildren being taught mythology in the place of science.

In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

I don't care what the wingnuts believe, as long as they do not demand the ability to forcefeed their nonsense to our kids in the educational system.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people?

In case you have not noticed, it is the 'lefties' here that are stating that science should be taught in science classes, not someone's mythology.

It is the Conservative demanding the right to teach nonsense in a science class.

I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people?

Stating that science should be taught in a science class is insecure?

I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

Not only understance the principles that this nation was founded on, but require that they be followed. Seperation of church and state is one of the basics principles.

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

 

[rdean]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise. In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people? I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people? I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

If keeping rabid pushers of mystical nonsense from spewing that garbage in my personal space, then I guess that is an attempt at control.

 

[sboyle24]

I'm sorry you all have to see this, but for the sake of this website, this board must be killed!

 

[Jurginvoncelle]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise. In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people? I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people? I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

Now just a minuet. I consider myself a Liberal. People are free to believe whatever they want. Lies as well as truths, No skin off me. Hopefully in this free nation the majority believe the truth!

Discussion and debate does call for you to argue what you believe, (hopefully to either reinforce, or rectify) and your ideas. However all ideas are subject to ridicule when made public. Par for the course, this is a discussion board.
We all have taken crap for whatever we believe in at some time or another.

"Facts" are un-proven every day, in science, and (even more often) in the subject history. If these things are taught as fact then “justness of fact” of science, history and certainly geography may be seen as temporary.

How would the abstract idea of “faith” even compare?
Should religion be subject to such callous?

If children are subject to social teaching that are deemed as religiously inconsistent with the MAJORITY of voting nation, then the people should look to the publicly funded schools to readjust their “facts”.
Otherwise that would be, to the majority, “taxation without representation”.

If the majority chooses to be silent, or is INFACT not an actual majority then the offer of correction falls upon the parent of said child, not to the government.

Would you not agree?

 

[rdean]

Evolution is the foundation science for biology, botany and physiology. If you go to any top tier university and ask to see their curriculum on "evolution", they will ask "which branch?"

From evolution has come dozens, probably hundreds, of new fields of science.

ENSI/SENSI: Evolution/Nat.of Sci.Home Page

Evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

list of evolutionary sciences - Google Books

But if you are going to teach the occult in place of science, then "God did it" is three words for a four year degree.

What bit of "useful" information can you get from "God did it"?

I think that one thing that confuses the right is they don't understand the connection between "science" and "technology". I'm pretty sure they feel science and technology and totally unrelated and if you ask about the connection, they won't know what you are talking about. They think of "technology" as "inventions" like cars and stuff and "science" as a "guess".

 

[rikules]

It's not about education, it's about indoctrination.

Due to the "Global economy", our country has to compete. We don't have a minute of time to waste in mysticism and the occult. We need to concentrate on the "real" world.

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise. In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people? I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people? I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

once again you show both your ignorance and your unmitigated bias


the story was about CHRISTIANS using THEIR INFLUENCE and POSITION to FORCE ALL SCHOOL CHILDREN in America to be INDOCTRINATED with right wing christian REVISIONIST history.


obviously this is something you supprt.

however those of us who believe in separation of church and state
and free speech
and religious freedom
are appalled at this OBVIOUS ACT of indoctrination and revisionist history


"What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people?"

excuse me, my precious little monkey brain, but the STORY and the POINT are about CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS CONTROLLING THE THOUGHTS OF OTHERS! and NOT "lefties".

no doubt you find this much less troubling
i'm sure you subscribe to the theory that indoctrination is ONLY bad when liberals do it!

"how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise."


do you mean..."shut up!"?

isn't it quite possible that attempts by deranged right wing conservative christians
tp indoctrinate ALL the school children of America with revisionist history IS important to him?

who do you think you are telling him what to think about?

are you queen of the universe?

why don't YOU concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise?


hmmmm?

 

[midcan5]

Here's a novel idea.... how about you concentrate on what is important to you and allow others to do likewise. In other words, why not mind your own damned business about what other people do or do not believe.

What is it with lefties and their obsessive need to control the thoughts and beliefs of other people? I wonder if they realize just how pathetically insecure it looks to other people? I wonder also why they can't understand the principles on which this nation was founded.

When 19 alienated men can fly a plane into a building hoping the 72 virgins are hot, killing 3000 innocent people, I think all people need to take religious ideas seriously. And if you think it is only Islam then you need to think some more.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The far lefties and far righties are both wrong, period, on this issue. Religiosity is part of American history. The country was founded by Christians generally far more than on Christianity. We have always had a diversity of belief and practice (and none practice) among Americans. To suggest that private religious expression is inappropriate in the public square is somehow unAmerican denies American history. On the other hand, we have all seen what happens when organized religion is cozy with government, which is what some far righties want. They are as wrong as the far lefties. As Jefferson said, the founders put a wall of separation between church and state, not between religion and state.

Religions compete in the free market of religious philosophy when it is not regulated or given preference by governments. I believe that is why we are the most religiously free country in the world with so many different religions and faith systems. And all of this gives those who want to sneer about "a mythical man in the sky" the same playing field as those of us who know the atheists are bubbleheads.