Ed Schultz Blaming Republicans For Manufacturing Jobs Gone To China. What ??

[Navy1960]

http://www.usmayors.org/highspeedrail/documents/committee-presentation.pdf

On the High Speed Rail thing, here is a study on the economic impact done for the US Conference of Mayors.

http://www.usmayors.org/highspeedrail/documents/report.pdf

Its a good read, the one thing here Teals, when you add in my previous posting, is all this economic impact also is taxable. To me at least, its not a matter of how much it costs but rather how to structure it so that the revenue that generated on ALL aspects of it so that it pays down that debt you mentioned. The same can be said for just about every program in the Federal system, I will add however, this is NOT the primary reason you build these things though , as a pure profit motive.

But profit is the reason Siemen's names is on the presentation. I mean, c'mon.....

There isn't enough information in there about assumptions or anything else to give you any kind of idea if this is reasonable or not.

Here in Kansas City, they have been knocking light rail off the ballot on a regular basis. The main claim is that it just won't pay out.

So it’s nice to see that Phoenix’s new light rail system has surpassed ridership expectations. The 20-mile system linking Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa was projected to carry 26,000 riders per day. Currently it’s averaging 33,000. Moreover, the rail line has attracted $3.5 billion in private investment along its length, and the newly accessible downtown area has seen its revenue rise by 13%, even as revenue in the rest of the city has fallen by 16%. Another 37 miles of track are already in the works.
Light rail notches a success in the West - Light rail, Mass transit | TerraPass: Fight global warming, reduce your carbon footprint

I suppose it would be how one measure's what is success. If for example you believe as I do, that these projects, be they HSR, Dams, what have you not only improve this nations infrastructure, but allows us to compete in an ever increasing competetive world. As you pointed out Siemen's is in the business of profits and as they are a private company in my humble opinion Govt. is doing helping to create private sector jobs in that regard. Lastly, I would imagine that most of the people that take advantage of these projects, and I know this for a fact here in Phoenix, rather enjoy the fact we have them, I can tell you for sure it's a LOT easier to take the Light Rail to a D-Backs game than it is to drive down there. Over the long term, these projects that serve communities are more than just how much profit they make, they are what defines us as a nation, if we get to the point where every project is based on what we "can't do" then eventually we will be able to do nothing.

 

[Listening]

So it’s nice to see that Phoenix’s new light rail system has surpassed ridership expectations. The 20-mile system linking Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa was projected to carry 26,000 riders per day. Currently it’s averaging 33,000. Moreover, the rail line has attracted $3.5 billion in private investment along its length, and the newly accessible downtown area has seen its revenue rise by 13%, even as revenue in the rest of the city has fallen by 16%. Another 37 miles of track are already in the works.
Light rail notches a success in the West - Light rail, Mass transit | TerraPass: Fight global warming, reduce your carbon footprint

I suppose it would be how one measure's what is success. If for example you believe as I do, that these projects, be they HSR, Dams, what have you not only improve this nations infrastructure, but allows us to compete in an ever increasing competetive world. As you pointed out Siemen's is in the business of profits and as they are a private company in my humble opinion Govt. is doing helping to create private sector jobs in that regard. Lastly, I would imagine that most of the people that take advantage of these projects, and I know this for a fact here in Phoenix, rather enjoy the fact we have them, I can tell you for sure it's a LOT easier to take the Light Rail to a D-Backs game than it is to drive down there. Over the long term, these projects that serve communities are more than just how much profit they make, they are what defines us as a nation, if we get to the point where every project is based on what we "can't do" then eventually we will be able to do nothing.

And that would be fine if that were the case. But simply to have them to create jobs is a large disservice to the rest of the country. They become projects that shift money from one region to another. If the people of Phoenix (Scottsdale is my hometown BTW) can justify it through thier taxes....fantastic. If this was constructed with federal money, then Kansas just gave money to AZ. That is a failure in my book.

Scottsdale does not have a line as I understand it. It does not help them. They should not be paying for any of it.

When I lived in Antioch, CA, we paid taxes to support BART on the promise that BART would someday come to Antioch. That was a firey discussion when we moved in. It was no different when we left. But I paid taxes for six years for something I never saw.

If your user fees can't justify it......

And driving downtown used to be a risky business......I don't know if that is still the case.

 

[Navy1960]

So it’s nice to see that Phoenix’s new light rail system has surpassed ridership expectations. The 20-mile system linking Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa was projected to carry 26,000 riders per day. Currently it’s averaging 33,000. Moreover, the rail line has attracted $3.5 billion in private investment along its length, and the newly accessible downtown area has seen its revenue rise by 13%, even as revenue in the rest of the city has fallen by 16%. Another 37 miles of track are already in the works.
Light rail notches a success in the West - Light rail, Mass transit | TerraPass: Fight global warming, reduce your carbon footprint

I suppose it would be how one measure's what is success. If for example you believe as I do, that these projects, be they HSR, Dams, what have you not only improve this nations infrastructure, but allows us to compete in an ever increasing competetive world. As you pointed out Siemen's is in the business of profits and as they are a private company in my humble opinion Govt. is doing helping to create private sector jobs in that regard. Lastly, I would imagine that most of the people that take advantage of these projects, and I know this for a fact here in Phoenix, rather enjoy the fact we have them, I can tell you for sure it's a LOT easier to take the Light Rail to a D-Backs game than it is to drive down there. Over the long term, these projects that serve communities are more than just how much profit they make, they are what defines us as a nation, if we get to the point where every project is based on what we "can't do" then eventually we will be able to do nothing.

And that would be fine if that were the case. But simply to have them to create jobs is a large disservice to the rest of the country. They become projects that shift money from one region to another. If the people of Phoenix (Scottsdale is my hometown BTW) can justify it through thier taxes....fantastic. If this was constructed with federal money, then Kansas just gave money to AZ. That is a failure in my book.

Scottsdale does not have a line as I understand it. It does not help them. They should not be paying for any of it.

When I lived in Antioch, CA, we paid taxes to support BART on the promise that BART would someday come to Antioch. That was a firey discussion when we moved in. It was no different when we left. But I paid taxes for six years for something I never saw.

If your user fees can't justify it......

And driving downtown used to be a risky business......I don't know if that is still the case.

Trust me, driving to downtown Phoenix is not something one would want to do for fun, so my point is that often times success is measured not just in dollars, but in how well received it is. In the case of Light Rail here for the most part people seem to like it. They are btw, expanding it, and if you have been to Sky Harbor lately, it will soon go there. I tend to one of those type's that really think projects like these, are good things because they just define who we are as a people in terms of how much we are willing to do to move our nation forward ( no MSNBC pun intended) lol.

 

[Listening]

Trust me, driving to downtown Phoenix is not something one would want to do for fun, so my point is that often times success is measured not just in dollars, but in how well received it is. In the case of Light Rail here for the most part people seem to like it. They are btw, expanding it, and if you have been to Sky Harbor lately, it will soon go there. I tend to one of those type's that really think projects like these, are good things because they just define who we are as a people in terms of how much we are willing to do to move our nation forward ( no MSNBC pun intended) lol.

I now live in a very nice city in Kansas (yes, Kansas). One of the things this city does is pull in federal dollars for projects. I find that repulsive. I know two members of the city council who tell me we could never fund the projects we have on our own. If we want something, we should pay for it.

They justify it by saying we pay federal taxes. That we pay taxes is true. That we may or may not get back more than we pay is what pisses me off. If we get back more, we are asking someone else to pay our bills. I've asked the council people if they'd like to pay my rent. I haven't seen a check yet.

In Kansas City, I hope we do build light rail. I hate driving over I-35 on cold morning and seeing all the cars (hardly moving) pushing out exhause plumes. But, it will come when the people of this city are willing to pay for it. We should not be asking the federal government for a dime.

 

[Navy1960]

Trust me, driving to downtown Phoenix is not something one would want to do for fun, so my point is that often times success is measured not just in dollars, but in how well received it is. In the case of Light Rail here for the most part people seem to like it. They are btw, expanding it, and if you have been to Sky Harbor lately, it will soon go there. I tend to one of those type's that really think projects like these, are good things because they just define who we are as a people in terms of how much we are willing to do to move our nation forward ( no MSNBC pun intended) lol.

I now live in a very nice city in Kansas (yes, Kansas). One of the things this city does is pull in federal dollars for projects. I find that repulsive. I know two members of the city council who tell me we could never fund the projects we have on our own. If we want something, we should pay for it.

They justify it by saying we pay federal taxes. That we pay taxes is true. That we may or may not get back more than we pay is what pisses me off. If we get back more, we are asking someone else to pay our bills. I've asked the council people if they'd like to pay my rent. I haven't seen a check yet.

In Kansas City, I hope we do build light rail. I hate driving over I-35 on cold morning and seeing all the cars (hardly moving) pushing out exhause plumes. But, it will come when the people of this city are willing to pay for it. We should not be asking the federal government for a dime.

I always thought that on a local level these kinds of things were easy enough to solve, ask the taxpayers to pay for it. It would seem to me, that if the local taxpayers wanted it bad enough then it would pass. So in the case of KC for example, perhaps a gas tax , whatever in combination with whatever Federal Funding they may get. Again, whats good for Phoenix though may not be good for Kansas City and have always felt and still do that Light Rail that are city transit systems need to fit the needs of the city.

 

[Listening]

I always thought that on a local level these kinds of things were easy enough to solve, ask the taxpayers to pay for it. It would seem to me, that if the local taxpayers wanted it bad enough then it would pass. So in the case of KC for example, perhaps a gas tax , whatever in combination with whatever Federal Funding they may get. Again, whats good for Phoenix though may not be good for Kansas City and have always felt and still do that Light Rail that are city transit systems need to fit the needs of the city.

You seem to be missing the point.

Federal funding is what screws this all up. Kansas likely helped build the light rail system in Phoenix. That isn't right.

 

[Navy1960]

I always thought that on a local level these kinds of things were easy enough to solve, ask the taxpayers to pay for it. It would seem to me, that if the local taxpayers wanted it bad enough then it would pass. So in the case of KC for example, perhaps a gas tax , whatever in combination with whatever Federal Funding they may get. Again, whats good for Phoenix though may not be good for Kansas City and have always felt and still do that Light Rail that are city transit systems need to fit the needs of the city.

You seem to be missing the point.

Federal funding is what screws this all up. Kansas likely helped build the light rail system in Phoenix. That isn't right.

I'm not missing your point and I respect your point, I am well aware that Phoenix Light Rail was funded through a local sales tax increase and using some of the Federal Transit Funding they get. However, would you not agree that the taxpayers of Phoenix help fund the transist system in Kansas City the same way? So given that would it not then be more less an equal footing? My point is simply that local tranist in terms of building things like Light Rail cant be done unless people want it, and it cant be done just with Tranist funding. So if Kansas City wanted Light rail the voters would and should have a say so.

 

[Listening]

I'm not missing your point and I respect your point, I am well aware that Phoenix Light Rail was funded through a local sales tax increase and using some of the Federal Transit Funding they get. However, would you not agree that the taxpayers of Phoenix help fund the transist system in Kansas City the same way? So given that would it not then be more less an equal footing? My point is simply that local tranist in terms of building things like Light Rail cant be done unless people want it, and it cant be done just with Tranist funding. So if Kansas City wanted Light rail the voters would and should have a say so.

There is no light rail in Kansas City and likely never will be....as much as I wish that were not the case. If you can't fund it without outside help then someone goes deficit.

Otherwise, you'd fund yours and we'd fund ours and everyone would take care of themselves. If we didn't want one, we could use the money for something else or have lower taxes.

If it can't stand on it's own...it should probably not happen. Phoenix is a large metro area....it has better chance of helping itself than Kansas City does.

 

[Navy1960]

I'm not missing your point and I respect your point, I am well aware that Phoenix Light Rail was funded through a local sales tax increase and using some of the Federal Transit Funding they get. However, would you not agree that the taxpayers of Phoenix help fund the transist system in Kansas City the same way? So given that would it not then be more less an equal footing? My point is simply that local tranist in terms of building things like Light Rail cant be done unless people want it, and it cant be done just with Tranist funding. So if Kansas City wanted Light rail the voters would and should have a say so.

There is no light rail in Kansas City and likely never will be....as much as I wish that were not the case. If you can't fund it without outside help then someone goes deficit.

Otherwise, you'd fund yours and we'd fund ours and everyone would take care of themselves. If we didn't want one, we could use the money for something else or have lower taxes.

If it can't stand on it's own...it should probably not happen. Phoenix is a large metro area....it has better chance of helping itself than Kansas City does.

Ahh, but see thats where we disagree, what defines "standing on it's own"? For some that is strictly a matter of dollars and cents for others its a matter of does it contribute to decongestion, and still others is it a source of pride. For me, while paying for it is important, it's not as important as the other two because, I tend to believe that if the other two are successful then the money issue eventually will be less and less of an issue. Your correct, I cannot speak to Kansas City because I don't live there, however my point there was just to simply say, that if the voters there wanted such a system it should be up to them and no one else. In doing so they would contribute from a financial standpoint like taxes, etc.

Oh and on Scottsdale Light Rail, just a little fyi, there are plans to expand it to North Scottsdale.

 

[Listening]

Ahh, but see thats where we disagree, what defines "standing on it's own"? For some that is strictly a matter of dollars and cents for others its a matter of does it contribute to decongestion, and still others is it a source of pride. For me, while paying for it is important, it's not as important as the other two because, I tend to believe that if the other two are successful then the money issue eventually will be less and less of an issue. Your correct, I cannot speak to Kansas City because I don't live there, however my point there was just to simply say, that if the voters there wanted such a system it should be up to them and no one else. In doing so they would contribute from a financial standpoint like taxes, etc.

Oh and on Scottsdale Light Rail, just a little fyi, there are plans to expand it to North Scottsdale.

Kansas City gets no say in the matter when it comes to the money it gives up in taxation for such purposes.

That is really all I care about. Just as you indicated about expanding it to North Scottsdale....I grew up in South Scottsdale Or "Old Scottsdale" and north is where all the money is. FYI

And you completely ignored my history on BART. Once again, I am paying taxes for something I get no value over.

If you need my money, then your project can't stand on it's own. As I said, someone goes deficit.

 

[Navy1960]

Ahh, but see thats where we disagree, what defines "standing on it's own"? For some that is strictly a matter of dollars and cents for others its a matter of does it contribute to decongestion, and still others is it a source of pride. For me, while paying for it is important, it's not as important as the other two because, I tend to believe that if the other two are successful then the money issue eventually will be less and less of an issue. Your correct, I cannot speak to Kansas City because I don't live there, however my point there was just to simply say, that if the voters there wanted such a system it should be up to them and no one else. In doing so they would contribute from a financial standpoint like taxes, etc.

Oh and on Scottsdale Light Rail, just a little fyi, there are plans to expand it to North Scottsdale.

Kansas City gets no say in the matter when it comes to the money it gives up in taxation for such purposes.

That is really all I care about. Just as you indicated about expanding it to North Scottsdale....I grew up in South Scottsdale Or "Old Scottsdale" and north is where all the money is. FYI

And you completely ignored my history on BART. Once again, I am paying taxes for something I get no value over.

If you need my money, then your project can't stand on it's own. As I said, someone goes deficit.

To fund the project, voters must approve a 25-year, half-cent sales tax initiative. Getting voter approval for a relatively unfamiliar transit system like LRT is always an uphill struggle – especially when taxes must be approved to finance it. But whether it wins or loses, the Kansas City proposal demonstrates the growing appeal light rail has for cities grappling with serious mobility problems
Kansas City Light Rail Plan Faces Voters

If this is not your city then forgive the post, however it does appear that the citizens do have some say do about the future of transit in the city. As to your comment about BART which btw I've been on several times, it wasn't lost on me, your contention is that people who pay taxes and do not use the services or the services do not come there, pay them for no good reason. I would submit to you, that you are doing so because the vast majoirty of the people in the bay area approved the funding for BART. Many people pay taxes for the schools in the area's in which they live and yet do not have children who go to those schools, but because it is good for the community as well as a vast majority of the voters there wished those taxes collected for that purpose.

Again, I respect your point and understand completely that these projects are not cheap and often times go into deficit, however again this is not only my personal opinion that is only one aspect of such a project and costs depend on the success of the system over the long term not the short term.

All one has to do is drive down Scottsdale Rd. these days to see the difference between Old Scottsdale and North Scottsdale, however, I tend to like Old Scottsdale much better, if anyone has had to deal with that traffic up there, its a mess.