Economics v. business --The Huck incident

[Said1]

Free trade zones are a group of countries that agree to eliminate tariffs, quotas, and preferences on most goods. It's similar to a customs union, like the EU, but different in that members don't necessarily have the same policies toward non-members. FTZs are also a designated part of a country. Most FTZs in the third world countries are setup with the rationale that the zones are attractive to foreign direct investment. Many corporations are given tax breaks as additional incentive and the government bureaucracy is minimized by outsourcing this function to the FTZ operator. They also hope that FDI will result in the transfer of technologies (the backward link you were talking about). The results of FTZs are mixed.

EPZs are a FTZ. The term export processing zones was coined by the Worldwatch Institute. The prime focus is generating export revenues.

In some states, like Jamaica, companies outside a FTZ can apply for FTZ status and become a single entity free zone. These businesses are 100% tax free.

I see you've been studying, very good. You're very close, although EPZs are usually designated to areas within a free trade zone. They are similar, but not the same. If a mulitnational has to import everything required in the production of a product, there has to be an incentive to do it. Face it, all countries offer incentives, this is a common practice.

Economic "links" take time, espeically when you are working from the ground up in most cases.

Yes, it is very clear.

Did you do it? What country did you read up on? I'm seriously interested.

What did you reckon the WTO would have to say that would change anything that I have been saying? The WTO loves free trade and everything is going great! The WTO is not a Christmas tree used to hang every good cause. They leave “the good fight” up to other organizations. You have to learn to let those organizations place blame of human rights abuses on those who commit those abuses and engage in corrupt behavior. Believe it or not this is often multinational corporations.

Look up Mexico vs. USA, in regards to Tuna fishing. Mexico had a case against the USA, but Mexico dropped it. The WTO will help if there is valid reasons.

clever

I know, I kill me!

You see, this is where you come in: you have to let me know what you’re asking for and why.

I did let you know, remember?

The article is not about the “dangers of foreign ownership”. Every oil operation in Nigeria is a joint venture where majority ownership is Nigerian. You may hate that it’s nationalized, but there are many countries with nationalized industries. The problem isn’t nationalization. The problem isn’t foreign ownership. The problem is multinational corporations using sophisticated legal and financial means to circumvent the bounds of standards......and yes they use the NIGERIAN legal system to do this. You take center nation's legal systems for granted and have the nerve to say Nigerian standards “aren’t western standards”.

Transnational oil companies are not following Nigerian law. The Nigerian government is too weak (for lots of reasons) to represent its people properly and provide proper mechanisms of redress that are acceptable by international standards. The oil corporations doesn’t act because they say it’s Nigeria’s responsibility, so they don’t provide mechanisms of redress and actually participate in leveraging the Nigerian people using the people’s own court systems. The WTO doesn’t act because it’s not their job to address these complaints. NGOs step in to bring everything to everyone’s attention. Meanwhile, sludge is spilling, water is polluted, locals are pitted against one another (by corporations using financial means), civil war is brewing, and the UN places sanctions on Nigeria. My question to you is “who’s going to step up?” Should the US step up and provide oversight of its firms that operate in other countries and provide a mechanism of redress for the people of Nigeria? This corruption has been going on for decades. Different Nigerian governments have come and gone so it’s difficult for me to accept that we should pin the blame on the “corrupt Nigerian government”. It’s insulting to the people of Nigeria, frankly, because to take this view implies that the government is not only a representation for the people but that it is often coupled with the view that government is a representation of the people. It is this notion that I have a problem with. Colonialism, cold war, isolation of the wealthy are heavily to blame.

If you plan to continue this debate, I strongly urge to go back and read what you have written, and the article you posted. You may notice they do not coincide with a lot of what you've written above. Some of it doesn't even make sense!

By the way, have you ever looked at the reforms that the WTO, World Bank, and IMF implement? Have you ever considered who the complainants were that prompted these reforms?

Yes I have seen the reforms, and no I've never wondered who the complainants were since they are probably coming from all sides.

not so clever

No, you're not so clever, I see you came back with nothing.

Of course they’re not exempt. I was trying to point out that you offer a loaded statement. No one thinks that anyone should be exempt because of poverty. Have you ever read any complaints from NGOs, ILO, and others? They never exempt anyone of responsibility because of poverty.

My turn again: Since I'm like you, and too lazy to go back and read previous posts, could you please tell me what your point is?

“A loan is a loan” is a ridiculous statement. I think the terms of a loan make a huge difference in whether it is or isn’t affordable. This whole debt thing is throwing me off, anyway. What are you trying to get at with the whole debt thing? Are you claiming the “effect” of a grant is an “indebtedness”? If so, isn’t that an example of using sophisticated legal and financial means?

I mentioned “development aid”. You must have evidently taken that as “commercial loan”. To be considered a concessional loan(which is what ODA is), the transaction must be administered with the promotion of economic development and have a grant element of at least 25%. A grant element of 100% would be a simple donation.

Hopefully nations will follow through on their promises.

No, I didnt think you meant commercial loan. A loan has to be paid back, regardless of it's nature. The 25% grant element comes with strict stipulations, as do the aid payments even if they are in the form of a loan. If the stipulations are not met on time, the borrowing nation gets NO money, and is still in more debt. Since you changed your mind about debt, I suppose it's not worth discussing anymore right?

eats shoots and leaves

Bite me.

You got a lot of nerve calling a low blow when you've been mostly cursing the past several posts.

Get bent loser. I was laughing at you making fun of my spelling and grammatical errors, since yours were even worse.

 

[shadrack]

I see you've been studying, very good. You're very close, although EPZs are usually designated to areas within a free trade zone. They are similar, but not the same. If a mulitnational has to import everything required in the production of a product, there has to be an incentive to do it. Face it, all countries offer incentives, this is a common practice.

Economic "links" take time, espeically when you are working from the ground up in most cases.

Okay, now that you have pointed out the technical details of EPZs and FTZs, what is a maquiladora? What is a free trade area? What is a science park? What about a bonded warehouse?
These technical details you point to do not negate the fact that short term capital inflows gained through the use of incentive bidding increases susceptibility to financial crises and instability. It doesn’t change the fact that few succeed in using incentives as a first step up the ladder towards higher value-added manufacturing to promote broader economic development. In EPZs employers wield the threat of dismissal if greater demands are made. There is no shortage of low-skilled, low-wage workers.

Are you trying to propose that things “work themselves out”? Incentive bidding is a classic example of the prisoner’s dilemma where everyone would be better off to resist the temptation, but none can because the one who does has so much to gain

Did you do it? What country did you read up on? I'm seriously interested.

Canada

Look up Mexico vs. USA, in regards to Tuna fishing. Mexico had a case against the USA, but Mexico dropped it. The WTO will help if there is valid reasons.

Again, what did you reckon the WTO would have to say that would change anything I’ve been saying? What does a US/Mexican trade dispute have to do with the accuracy of my statement or the accuracy of anything else I’ve stated? Maybe you should stop being lazy.

What if both countries agree to allow corporations to exploit individuals?

If you plan to continue this debate, I strongly urge to go back and read what you have written, and the article you posted. You may notice they do not coincide with a lot of what you've written above. Some of it doesn't even make sense!

Like I said before, there are many sources. I’m not going to search them for you. The debacle that the oil companies have gotten themselves into in Nigeria is pretty well known.

No, you're not so clever, I see you came back with nothing.

If agreements are non-binding, they can’t be legally enforced.

My turn again: Since I'm like you, and too lazy to go back and read previous posts, could you please tell me what your point is?

You’re kidding right?

No, I didnt think you meant commercial loan. A loan has to be paid back, regardless of it's nature. The 25% grant element comes with strict stipulations, as do the aid payments even if they are in the form of a loan. If the stipulations are not met on time, the borrowing nation gets NO money, and is still in more debt. Since you changed your mind about debt, I suppose it's not worth discussing anymore right?

I think you’re imagining yourself having a conversation with someone else....Shirley, maybe? And, how does your statement change anything that I’ve been saying? You’re going to have to explain to me how I’ve changed my mind about debt. Concessional loans are non-debt-creating financial flows.

Bite me.

Like I said before, language is funny that way. It’s difficult to interpret. It’s often difficult to read tone. There are different sensitivities to certain words and phrases. There are different philosophies behind different word usages. There are multiple ways to phrase the same concept. etc, etc

 

[shadrack]

What do you want to do, shadrack? What policy changes would you like?

Draw up legally binding international guidelines to regulate the conduct of multinational enterprises and to define their relationship with the host countries. Or strengthen the current instruments available in order to weaken a multinational’s ability to exploit workers.

Economic liberalization and democratization gives the impoverished majority a voice while allowing them to observe the wealth that they are isolated from.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Draw up legally binding international guidelines to regulate the conduct of multinational enterprises and to define their relationship with the host countries.

So you want control. I figured that much. That's always the first priority with libs.

Or strengthen the current instruments available in order to weaken a multinational’s ability to exploit workers.

Are you talking global minimum wage? How will you enforce that?

 

[Said1]

Okay, now that you have pointed out the technical details of EPZs and FTZs, what is a maquiladora? What is a free trade area? What is a science park? What about a bonded warehouse?

Do you have a point with regard to the above questions? If so, make it or dry up.

These technical details you point to do not negate the fact that short term capital inflows gained through the use of incentive bidding increases susceptibility to financial crises and instability. It doesn’t change the fact that few succeed in using incentives as a first step up the ladder towards higher value-added manufacturing to promote broader economic development.

You brought up the technical terms first, without knowing what they were, lets get that straight first.
I know you hate to accept this, but developing nation needs to adopt practical reforms and protection policies, and enforce them. If few succeed in developing links to other sectors, who's fault is that, and why do they continue to do things that do not work if, as you say, "few succeed"? These things take time, and no one said world markets aren't risky. All nations practice incentive bidding, it's not a third world phenomena.
Try this report...if you dare. It's very detailed and looks at problems preveting third world economic development, that go beyond your multnational scapegoats.
http://econ.worldbank.org/files/36237_complete.pdf

In EPZs employers wield the threat of dismissal if greater demands are made. There is no shortage of low-skilled, low-wage workers.

If employers do this, then they are culpable for the mistreatment of workers, especially when it violates national laws ect. You posted a good example in a previous post about China, but didn't comment on it, why?

Are you trying to propose that things “work themselves out”? Incentive bidding is a classic example of the prisoner’s dilemma where everyone would be better off to resist the temptation, but none can because the one who does has so much to gain

As I have already stated, incentive bidding takes place all over the world in ALL markets. Are you purposing that if they are not spoon fed, and do not meet your approval, they should be excluded?

Canada

You're lack of initiative is not hidden by your remark loser. Here's an updated report on Djibouti. Read it, quote from it, that will make you look a little smarter.
Djibouti

Again, what did you reckon the WTO would have to say that would change anything I’ve been saying? What does a US/Mexican trade dispute have to do with the accuracy of my statement or the accuracy of anything else I’ve stated? Maybe you should stop being lazy.

It has lots to do with it Horseshack. The WTO acts as a mediator and judge in trade desputes. Of course they like trade, they are not an environmental or human rights organization. The US/Mexican trade dispute is ONE example of the WTO siding with the developing nation regarding environmental issues. Maybe you should get a clue and stop copying and pasting from anti-trade sites.

What if both countries agree to allow corporations to exploit individuals?

Why are you asking such stupid questions again? I think that's been asked and answered already

Like I said before, there are many sources. I’m not going to search them for you. The debacle that the oil companies have gotten themselves into in Nigeria is pretty well known.

I know there are many sources, but YOU sited Nigeria, and overlooked crucial information contained in the document that you claimed you read. You have contradicted yourself several times throughout this thread, and I'm convinced you are a developmentally delayed. If you're ok with the fact that you lose credibility when you act in such an idiotic manner, that's ok by me - keep up the good work!

If agreements are non-binding, they can’t be legally enforced.

What agreements?

You’re kidding right?

No.

I think you’re imagining yourself having a conversation with someone else....Shirley, maybe? And, how does your statement change anything that I’ve been saying? You’re going to have to explain to me how I’ve changed my mind about debt. Concessional loans are non-debt-creating financial flows.

Firstly, I've already shown where you have changed your mind, go back and look.
Secondly, how are consessional loans non-debt-creating financial flows Nancy??
A LOAN HAS TO BE PAID BACK REGARDLESS OF IT'S NATURE. Consessional loans also come with terms, and are usually doled out in payments. If the terms are not met, they do not receive the rest of the payments. This leaves them in debt, and without much in the way of successful development. Development aid is not limited to grants, which you know, right????? So, if the terms of the loan are not met, and they do not receive the grant due to this, what do you think happens? Also, donors often “tie” aid by requiring that it be spent on exports ect from the donor. Aid often has political strings attached and it can be used to promote local interests of the donor, not the real development needs of the recipient. This scenario also applies to grants, a fact you continue to ignore.

Like I said before, language is funny that way. It’s difficult to interpret. It’s often difficult to read tone. There are different sensitivities to certain words and phrases. There are different philosophies behind different word usages. There are multiple ways to phrase the same concept. etc, etc

I think "bite me" is pretty straight forward, unless english is not your first language.

 

[Said1]

So you want control. I figured that much. That's always the first priority with libs.

Are you talking global minimum wage? How will you enforce that?

The dipshit probably doesn't realize global standards will affect him too.

 

[shadrack]

Do you have a point with regard to the above questions? If so, make it or dry up.

These are all open ended questions. You do not have to respond to anything. Just because you grant me a dialogue, doesn't mean you are indebted to answer if you do not wish.

You brought up the technical terms first, without knowing what they were, lets get that straight first.
I know you hate to accept this, but developing nation needs to adopt practical reforms and protection policies, and enforce them. If few succeed in developing links to other sectors, who's fault is that, and why do they continue to do things that do not work if, as you say, "few succeed"? These things take time, and no one said world markets aren't risky. All nations practice incentive bidding, it's not a third world phenomena.
Try this report...if you dare. It's very detailed and looks at problems preveting third world economic development, that go beyond your multnational scapegoats.
http://econ.worldbank.org/files/36237_complete.pdf

1.Please elaborate on "developing nation needs to adopt practical reforms and protection policies, and enforce them.” 2.Conditions are at fault. With the right conditions success occurs. 3.You understand economies (including center nation economies) can collapse. Risk should be minimized. 4.Incentive bidding is THE problem. It often creates the conditions that prevents development. It distorts the market. And is used by developed nations to close their markets.

If employers do this, then they are culpable for the mistreatment of workers, especially when it violates national laws ect. You posted a good example in a previous post about China, but didn't comment on it, why?

It wasn’t about China, it was about Mattel and the burdens they face while uplifting poor Chinamen. You really need to learn to interpret articles. Here’s another one that is similar in nature: http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/chevron.htm

As I have already stated, incentive bidding takes place all over the world in ALL markets. Are you purposing that if they are not spoon fed, and do not meet your approval, they should be excluded?

That is the most loaded statement ever. How can I even begin to respond to this? I’m purposing that competition is cut-throut and that it is only good(note: this is the first moral value I have assigned to anything thus far) between similarly developed regions. You wouldn’t pit 1A against 4A sports teams.

You're lack of initiative is not hidden by your remark loser. Here's an updated report on Djibouti. Read it, quote from it, that will make you look a little smarter.
Djibouti

Okay

It has lots to do with it Horseshack. The WTO acts as a mediator and judge in trade desputes. Of course they like trade, they are not an environmental or human rights organization. The US/Mexican trade dispute is ONE example of the WTO siding with the developing nation regarding environmental issues. Maybe you should get a clue and stop copying and pasting from anti-trade sites.

I gather the vast majority of my information from the same place you do.....the UN system. You should go there sometime and read more than just select documents from select bodies.

Why are you asking such stupid questions again? I think that's been asked and answered already

Because the fact remains the system fails at the level of the people.

I know there are many sources, but YOU sited Nigeria, and overlooked crucial information contained in the document that you claimed you read. You have contradicted yourself several times throughout this thread, and I'm convinced you are a developmentally delayed. If you're ok with the fact that you lose credibility when you act in such an idiotic manner, that's ok by me - keep up the good work!

If you could interpret information properly rather than allowing details and your own beliefs to confuse you, you would have gathered from the article that the problem with the Nigerian oil industry is monopoly.

What agreements?

www.un.org

Firstly, I've already shown where you have changed your mind, go back and look.
Secondly, how are consessional loans non-debt-creating financial flows Nancy??
A LOAN HAS TO BE PAID BACK REGARDLESS OF IT'S NATURE. Consessional loans also come with terms, and are usually doled out in payments. If the terms are not met, they do not receive the rest of the payments. This leaves them in debt, and without much in the way of successful development. Development aid is not limited to grants, which you know, right????? So, if the terms of the loan are not met, and they do not receive the grant due to this, what do you think happens? Also, donors often “tie” aid by requiring that it be spent on exports ect from the donor. Aid often has political strings attached and it can be used to promote local interests of the donor, not the real development needs of the recipient. This scenario also applies to grants, a fact you continue to ignore.

Bold capital letters and your believing it does not make you so. It is considered "non-debt-creating" because it has positive effects on the debt indicators of the recipient country. It isn’t a free for all.

 

[shadrack]

So you want control. I figured that much. That's always the first priority with libs.

Are you talking global minimum wage? How will you enforce that?

It's called establishing Rule of Law. Don't all laws and agreements define relationships and regulate behavior? Why am I a "lib" for stating such a thing?

 

[manu1959]

It's called establishing Rule of Law. Don't all laws and agreements define relationships and regulate behavior? Why am I a "lib" for stating such a thing?

let the free market decide

 

[Said1]

1.Please elaborate on "developing nation needs to adopt practical reforms and protection policies, and enforce them.”

Developing nations need to adopt practical reforms and protection policies and enforce them. Si?

2.Conditions are at fault. With the right conditions success occurs. 3.You understand economies (including center nation economies) can collapse. Risk should be minimized.

It's their choice to take the risk (or not) under the current conditions they provide, or markets they risk getting into. Comprendre?

4.Incentive bidding is THE problem. It often creates the conditions that prevents development. It distorts the market. And is used by developed nations to close their markets.

If incentive bidding has such disastrous effects, perhaps they shouldn't take part in it, and go back to being dependant on aid, loans and grants as you would like. Maybe they should stick to doing business amongst themselves, in their own free trade type scenario.
And, how do developed nations close their markets, specifically? Do you mean quotas?

It wasn’t about China, it was about Mattel and the burdens they face while uplifting poor Chinamen. You really need to learn to interpret articles. Here’s another one that is similar in nature: http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/chevron.htm

Are you a total fucken imbecile, yes or no? The events took place in China, AND I said it was a good article. Are you so intent on being right that you will cling to anything?

That is the most loaded statement ever. How can I even begin to respond to this? I’m purposing that competition is cut-throut and that it is only good(note: this is the first moral value I have assigned to anything thus far) between similarly developed regions. You wouldn’t pit 1A against 4A sports teams.

So again, you are purposing they should go back to being totally dependant on the generosity of other nations and institutions. Does Mr. Cotter still have that big fro?

Okay

You're the Sweathog, just trying to hep yoo out, man.

I gather the vast majority of my information from the same place you do.....the UN system. You should go there sometime and read more than just select documents from select bodies.

That's funny, you should read the articles you post when tryingr to validate your arguements. And just so I know, how does the UN help settle trade desputes brought to the WTO? I'm clueless.

Because the fact remains the system fails at the level of the people.

Yes, third world systems fail at the level of the people.

If you could interpret information properly rather than allowing details and your own beliefs to confuse you, you would have gathered from the article that the problem with the Nigerian oil industry is monopoly.

I read the article. It goes into specific detail that you missed and refuse to go back read. Remember a few posts back, when I asked you who you thought was stealing oil in Nigeria?? What was your answer "Uhh doi, what oil?". Try actually reading before you interpret Norton.

www.un.org

What am I supposed to be looking for here? Failures to enforce laws and intervene where they have authority, or unbinding agreements, agreeing that something is bad?

Bold capital letters and your believing it does not make you so. It is considered "non-debt-creating" because it has positive effects on the debt indicators of the recipient country. It isn’t a free for all.

You are too stupid for words. How do you survive, who wipes your ass and feeds you?