Dubai's free market capitalism

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Capitalism is the best way to accrue wealth and prosperity. Not everyone is going to succeed, however.

True enough, some will do well, many will not do well.

It's your contention that more people lose wealth under capitalism than gain it?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

No Nation on this Planet is immune to Economic Downturn. This is true whether it is a Free Market Capitalist Nation or a Socialist/Communist Nation. Just take a look at North Korea and South Korea for instance. The standard of living in North Korea is already much lower than in South Korea to begin with so this comparison stuff is all Apples & Oranges in the end. However,South Korea will recover rather quickly from any Economic Downturn while North Korea will not. This is certainly not the end of Dubai and blaming their political system really is pretty absurd. They will recover in time and will continue to be an Economic Power in the Middle East. The standard of living in most Socialist/Communist Nations is so much lower than most Free Market Capitalist Nations. So comparing the two systems really is an exercise in futility.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Searching for a point. None found.

Point being that systems based on the capitalist ideal are not failures.. while all governmental systems based on socialism, Marxism, and communism have been failure and will always be failures... they simply cannot and will not work unless you have the crushing power of the ruling elite forcing the ideals within those systems

Elite? You know that capitalism is run by and for elites don't you?

Capitalism is an economic system that is built on certain premises and operates in a certain fashion. It is a system that requires periodical failures, not just of individual actors but the system itself. Neat one eh? To operate it must fail from time to time. That works doesn't it?

The alleged failures of socialism are brought up time and time again but never really analysed properly. It could be a bit tedious I suppose but it would be worth a discussion.

Has it failed in Cuba? Think about it for just a minute or two because Cuba is probably an interesting example.

And just to finish off, capitalism cannot function without government. It has, as I have said before, shaped government to protect it and to enable it to continue to exist. Ironic but not surprising. The elites have to cloud people's thinking with propaganda so that the truth about capitalism isn't revealed to them. If they knew how it really operated they'd try to get rid of it.

Capitalism isn't run by any one person or group of people, it's run by the market. Supply and demand. It's when government gets involved that we have the corruption, and no government is not necessary for capitalism to function.

Has socialism failed in Cuba? It's a third world country with a stagnant economy. I'd call that a failure. And it's interesting, I believe Shogun brought up how it's our embargo on Cuba keeping them down, but it's the true free market economists, the Austrians, calling for the complete removal of that embargo.

The alleged failures of socialism? Socialism can't work because there is no profit and loss system, and thus no rational means of allocating resources. Had the U.S. not propped up the Soviet Union they would have collapsed earlier than they did. And let's note that all the socialist countries needed capitalistic reforms to get their economies moving again. China is the perfect example of this. There's nothing communist about their economy today. They're certainly not a free market but they have undergone many capitalistic reforms and are now poised as one of the economic powerhouses of the world.

 

[2Parties]

Dubai's demise relating to capitalism is about as relevant to capitalism as Michael's Moore movie titled "Capitalism" is.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

but it's the true free market economists, the Austrians, calling for the complete removal of that embargo.

Austrians enjoy a very generous social safety net which includes free health care, as does Ireland, which, if I'm not mistaken, has more of a "free" market than our OWN. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, ALL of the top 12 have public health care provided for & or strong social safety nets. Why do you guys keep whining that we can't have both? Why can't we take care of our citezenry and prosper at the same time?

The 2009 Index of Economic Freedom » The Foundry

Gotta go get on the train now. Ta ta!

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Despite what the Socialists/Communists keep telling everyone,Socialism/Communism does not = "Sharing the Wealth." In the end it always = Sharing the Poverty instead. Do the Socialists/Communists on this board really believe that the standard of living is higher in North Korea than it is in South Korea? This post is just more misguided fantasizing over a Non-Existent and Never-will-be Socialist/Communist Utopia. It is entertaining but it has very little to do with reality.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

but it's the true free market economists, the Austrians, calling for the complete removal of that embargo.

Austrians enjoy a very generous social safety net which includes free health care, as does Ireland, which, if I'm not mistaken, has more of a "free" market than our OWN. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, ALL of the top 12 have public health care provided for & or strong social safety nets. Why do you guys keep whining that we can't have both? Why can't we take care of our citezenry and prosper at the same time?

The 2009 Index of Economic Freedom » The Foundry

Gotta go get on the train now. Ta ta!

By Austrians I was referring to the Austrian economists, named after the founders of the Austrian school of economics who were indeed Austrians, here in the United States, not the citizens of Austria.

Ludwig von Mises Institute - Homepage

 

[Bern80]

but it's the true free market economists, the Austrians, calling for the complete removal of that embargo.

Austrians enjoy a very generous social safety net which includes free health care, as does Ireland, which, if I'm not mistaken, has more of a "free" market than our OWN. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, ALL of the top 12 have public health care provided for & or strong social safety nets. Why do you guys keep whining that we can't have both? Why can't we take care of our citezenry and prosper at the same time?

The 2009 Index of Economic Freedom » The Foundry

Gotta go get on the train now. Ta ta!

Um yeah. I know it has the name of a country in it, but Austrian economics does NOT refer to how the country of Austria runs it's economy. It is a school of economic thought that happened to founded by a bunch of guys from Austria.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Lets see, Dubai's government spent money like drunken sailors. It's no wonder they're broke. That's what happens when you spend billions of dollars building ridiculous man made islands that serve no reasonable purpose whatsoever.

And what does the US have now?

Obama and his equally incompetent administration spending billions of dollars like drunken sailors for no reasonable purpose whatsoever.

 

[Toro]

What part of capitalism says you are guarunteed to make money?

Retards, this wasn't a business that failed. It was a whole country. Just like capitalist greed toppled our economy, only we didn't technically go bankrupt. Do you think there should be more regulation when capitalism fails like this?

The country did not fail. Dubai World failed.

Dubai World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Toro]

It seems to me that you are defending a system that enriches only a few to the detriment of the rest. I see that as immoral. Are you christian? What about that part in the bible about turning out the money changers? Isn't greed (gluttony) one of the 7 sins?

Let me turn your argument on its ear... If you are giving the vast majority of wealth to only a handful of people, aren't you, in essence, taking it from the rest bit by bit? That money has to come from somewhere and wealth is a finite resource. So, in essence, the extremely wealthy use their policies take from the rest to amass more and more wealth.

Dubai had one of the fastest growth rates of income for its citizens and ex-pats in the world.

Virtually all rich countries have gone through debt-induced collapses during their development, including the United States. Why would we expect Dubai to be any different?

Dubai is amazing, despite the overbuilding. It has turned itself from an irrelevant city in the sand to one of the most dynamic cities on the planet in less than 30 years.

 

[Toro]

Just do some more research and you will quickly see that Free Market Capitalist Nations actually rebound much quicker and thoroughly than Socialist/Communist Nations do.

Bullshit. Source, please.

Oh, and there are no true communist states anymore. Even China has a mixed economy now with a VERY capitalist bent (and companies that poison people due to lax or no regulation). There are basically no socialist states now - maybe Vietnam and Cuba as holdouts. So, what nations have failed?

Cuba and North Korea are the last communist states. Vietnam has a stock exchange now.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Something tells me lil' Mr Peepers likes Borscht and stale white bread. When it's available anyway.

 

[antagon]

It seems to me that you are defending a system that enriches only a few to the detriment of the rest. I see that as immoral. Are you christian? What about that part in the bible about turning out the money changers? Isn't greed (gluttony) one of the 7 sins?

Let me turn your argument on its ear... If you are giving the vast majority of wealth to only a handful of people, aren't you, in essence, taking it from the rest bit by bit? That money has to come from somewhere and wealth is a finite resource. So, in essence, the extremely wealthy use their policies take from the rest to amass more and more wealth.

Dubai had one of the fastest growth rates of income for its citizens and ex-pats in the world.

Virtually all rich countries have gone through debt-induced collapses during their development, including the United States. Why would we expect Dubai to be any different?

Dubai is amazing, despite the overbuilding. It has turned itself from an irrelevant city in the sand to one of the most dynamic cities on the planet in less than 30 years.

dubai's lame. overrated: the underlying cause of the fail. better go to vegas for that glitz. sharm al sheikh is far more worth while, without all that expense and tawdry arabian BS. a house of cards in the wind.

 

[Wicked Jester]

It seems to me that you are defending a system that enriches only a few to the detriment of the rest. I see that as immoral. Are you christian? What about that part in the bible about turning out the money changers? Isn't greed (gluttony) one of the 7 sins?

Let me turn your argument on its ear... If you are giving the vast majority of wealth to only a handful of people, aren't you, in essence, taking it from the rest bit by bit? That money has to come from somewhere and wealth is a finite resource. So, in essence, the extremely wealthy use their policies take from the rest to amass more and more wealth.

Dubai had one of the fastest growth rates of income for its citizens and ex-pats in the world.

Virtually all rich countries have gone through debt-induced collapses during their development, including the United States. Why would we expect Dubai to be any different?

Dubai is amazing, despite the overbuilding. It has turned itself from an irrelevant city in the sand to one of the most dynamic cities on the planet in less than 30 years.

dubai's lame. overrated: the underlying cause of the fail. better go to vegas for that glitz. sharm al sheikh is far more worth while, without all that expense and tawdry arabian BS. a house of cards in the wind.

Good point!

How many tourists in this world actually want to visit that shithole?

Far less than the idiots in Dubai's government predicted. That's for sure!

 

[Shogun]

it's still funny watching you zombie-eyed capitalists trying to insist that fire doesn't burn.


seriously.

 

[Bern80]

it's still funny watching you zombie-eyed capitalists trying to insist that fire doesn't burn.


seriously.

I supposse it's easy to do that when you have as skewed a version of reality as you do. Are you so naive as to think that there is some economic system out there that is going to be totally free of corruption?

No one is claiming that there won't be corruption in a capitilistic system. Then again it's not like there won't be corruption in any other system as well. So your bitching about that particular is basically mute. Secondly you are of the belief that the corruption that is present is something widespread. Sorry, it isn't. To have jobs you need other people to employ people. The vast majority of employers are more then fair with their employees in terms of pay and benefits.

But fine, we install your beloved communism and now instead of everyone having the opportunity to attain great wealth - or hell, as you would argue only some having opportunity - NO ONE has that opportunity. Since there is no wealth creation and no room for business to expand there is no job creation.

The FACT of your position Shogun is that you are a whiny pussy who is essentially saying since I'm not willing to put for the effort to achieve I'm gonna set up a system where NO ONE can achieve. By doing so you will lower the standard of living of everyone. Not just the miniscule number of corrupt business men you hope to eliminate, but everyone they would have employed as well. So you understand how truly laughable you are when you claim you want to improve America by doing away with capitalism.

 

[Shogun]

it's still funny watching you zombie-eyed capitalists trying to insist that fire doesn't burn.


seriously.

I supposse it's easy to do that when you have as skewed a version of reality as you do. Are you so naive as to think that there is some economic system out there that is going to be totally free of corruption?

No one is claiming that there won't be corruption in a capitilistic system. Then again it's not like there won't be corruption in any other system as well. So your bitching about that particular is basically mute. Secondly you are of the belief that the corruption that is present is something widespread. Sorry, it isn't. To have jobs you need other people to employ people. The vast majority of employers are more then fair with their employees in terms of pay and benefits.

But fine, we install your beloved communism and now instead of everyone having the opportunity to attain great wealth - or hell, as you would argue only some having opportunity - NO ONE has that opportunity. Since there is no wealth creation and no room for business to expand there is no job creation.

The FACT of your position Shogun is that you are a whiny pussy who is essentially saying since I'm not willing to put for the effort to achieve I'm gonna set up a system where NO ONE can achieve. By doing so you will lower the standard of living of everyone. Not just the miniscule number of corrupt business men you hope to eliminate, but everyone they would have employed as well. So you understand how truly laughable you are when you claim you want to improve America by doing away with capitalism.

Like I told you yesterday, Bern, you can save your candy ass, limp wristed shit talking for someone who is not already laughing at your continual failures regarding econ theories. You can cry like a baby about skewed reality and the education of those who disagree with you all day long but, and here is the pattern BERN, you always seem to find yourself making excuses for the FUCKUPS rather than being able to point out time and again how FMC is benefiting more than your beloved upper class. Again, you are the reason Batista's ass found himself ejected from Cuba and lord fucking knows how many trade embargo's it takes to produce your opinions about socialism in CUBA.


NO system is free of corruption. But, that doesn't keep your kind from falling over itself crying about Cuba and Russia DESPITE YOUR PUNCHLINE DEPENDENCE ON COMMIE CHINA. do you give socialist nations as much benefit of the doubt as your pansy ass EXPECTS to be given here? Fuck no you don't. You use them each and every time as if they are THE example of why those systems don't work. Tell me, Bern, how does that irony taste?


So, before you reply with some trite fucking joke of a post that makes me laugh at you harder today go try and ween your silly fucking capitlist self off of the tit of COMMIE CHINA who seems to be doing pretty well stroking your sense of FMC while taking the US to the bank, literally.


Maybe next you can parade around like a fucking ringside round number girl and insist that Trade Deficits are good for our economy too, eh motherfucker?

 

[Bern80]

you always seem to find yourself making excuses for the FUCKUPS rather than being able to point out time and again how FMC is benefiting more than your beloved upper class. Again, you are the reason Batista's ass found himself ejected from Cuba and lord fucking knows how many trade embargo's it takes to produce your opinions about socialism in CUBA.

I have never made excuses for it. It is a risk of the system. I have simply said if your too much of a pussy to challenge yourself and deal with the risk, leave.

NO system is free of corruption. But, that doesn't keep your kind from falling over itself crying about Cuba and Russia DESPITE YOUR PUNCHLINE DEPENDENCE ON COMMIE CHINA. do you give socialist nations as much benefit of the doubt as your pansy ass EXPECTS to be given here? Fuck no you don't. You use them each and every time as if they are THE example of why those systems don't work. Tell me, Bern, how does that irony taste?

The upside of corruption to the detriment of society in a capitlaistic society is that you can turn to government to regulate where needed. Who do the laborers of China and Cuba have to turn to?

So, before you reply with some trite fucking joke of a post that makes me laugh at you harder today go try and ween your silly fucking capitlist self off of the tit of COMMIE CHINA who seems to be doing pretty well stroking your sense of FMC while taking the US to the bank, literally.

What you don't understand Shogun is that everything you advocate will result in a lower standard of living for everyone. Whether it be switching to communism or becoming isolationist and only buying American. Communism limits what one can achieve thus it limits job creaton and the ability of EVERYONE to accumulate wealth. Buying only American costs more for the consumer and is one of those things you can't have both ways. So expenses go up which makes it harder again to improve one's standard of living. You can't expect companies to shoot themselves twice by increasing your wages that you piss and moan about AND make goods cost less. Unless you believe we should just subsidize everything and pile on even more deficit by like infinity

Maybe next you can parade around like a fucking ringside round number girl and insist that Trade Deficits are good for our economy too, eh motherfucker?

Why would I do that?

 

[Mr. Peepers]

What you don't understand Shogun is that everything you advocate will result in a lower standard of living for everyone.

I think your problem is that you only see things in an either/or/black/white. Like I said above: Ireland, Japan, France, Germany, Norway, Austria, Amsterdam, Norway, etc. - all have very strong capitalist markets and also have generous social programs. In fact, Austria and Ireland have even freer markets than we do, according to the "top 10" I posted earlier - and they also have very generous social programs. Their standard of living is also much higher than ours. Why can't we have both? Seems like it would make us even more competitive in the global community - and everyone can prosper. You act like if you live in one of these countries, you cannot be wealthy as well? Do you know the country that had the most millionaires in 2007? It was frickin' Norway. Why can't we take the things that WORK well for the citezenry from both sides and make this a truly great country?