Dubai's free market capitalism

☭proletarian☭;1819279 said:
what do they propose as the alternative mechanism for adding/burning money in the market?
You can't 'add money to the market'; inflating the monetary supply devalues the means of exchange (printing more dollars makes each dollar worth less). An example of this is post WWI Germany or modern day Kenya, Ethiopia, or- taken to the point of utter absurdity- Zimbabwe. One must keep in mind the subjective manner in which people ascribe value to goods and services (this in opposition to the theories of Marx and Keynes*, which believe that all goods are always equal to the amount of labour taken to create them). When people invest resources and effort to create goods which they or others perceive as having greater value than the raw materials and trade these products for goods or services (or means of exchange, or money) the producer perceives as more valuable to him/herself than the product they have created, the overall wealth of the persons involved increases (each person now possesses something they feel is more valuable to them than they possessed prior the transaction. In the case of producers who make many instances of a good for sale to a large population, the seller will seek to increase his perceived wealth as much as possible, as will the buyer- this is the basis of the supply-and-demand relationship which determines the market value of the goods or services in question- the price for which it is traded (usually in the form of a given amount of another material recognized by both parties as having value and being convenient for exchange- this is currency and can take the form of fiat, which represents some portion of the overall wealth of the market, or some material, such as gold, which is itself valued).

Moving along, as the process continues, people amass things which they believe holds value- TVs, houses, etc),m thereby increasing their overall wealth. Due to the nature of people's desires, some things are created to be resold- a refrigerator company buys materials (invests capital) to produce goods with a surplus value and make a profit. This is the creation of new wealth which the Keynesian seeks, in his foolishness, to achieve by simply creating more fiat currency (inflating the money suplpy and devaluing the currency; the effects are delayed by the manner in which this new fiat enters the market and multiplied further by the banks)
further downstream if the initial inflation was started by a central bank (in the absence of a central bank, it is the banks that interact directly with the populace which can each inflate their own monetary supply- bank notes which they issue- but no one bank can effect the entire economy without other banks also taking such actions).

An added risk of the central bank is that the government which runs it likely to use it as a political tool (as we see with the Fed constantly) and having the backing of the State (much as we saw with the bailouts on Wall Street) encourages dangerous policies and unnecessary risk taking. Such policies, including artificially low interest rates and the inflated money supply, cause the illusion of greater wealth than their really is, encouraging investments and obligations that cannot be met (Thomas E. Woods uses the analogy of a man building a house who believes he has three times as many bricks as he truly possess (this is the bubble); when he cannot complete the house, he has squandered his resources and does not receive the expected return because he cannot complete his project; he finds himself without the resources he needs and the banks no longer have anyone to loan out (this is the bust). This gives birth to the boom-bust cycle inherent in Keyne's fantasy of a 'permanent semi-boom' **'

how do they propose isolating that device from political/private influence?
Through open competition of banking institutions on the free market without the existence of a central bank engaged in Mark's central planning*** Minimal regulation would be involved- that is, instead of trying to manipulate the markets, the government should enforce transparency laws and work to prevent abuses and dishonesty such as we saw with Enron, SubPrime loans (which, to be fair, were largely required by federal law at the behest of Acorn and other racist groups), and the numerous repackaging of the market that contributed to America's latest economic troubles. Moral hazard is avoided by allowing banks and other cooperationsthat make poor decisions to go under, thus giving them a reason to be wise in their decisions and avoid unnecessary risks as well as putting limits on fees and fines that banks can charge to prevent abuse and exploitation by the banks (the last bit is a point of contention for some more extreme laissez faire Austrians and are naturally opposed by the banks themselves; my support for such protections putts me a bit to the left within the Austrian school, which is perhaps not surprising given my support of Social Democracy rather than a more strict Classical Liberal ideology).

you cant take the chicken out of the chicken and egg conundrum by removing the central bank. theres still corruptible roles being played. that leaves the mint to handle monetary policy!??
The mint would be dissolved as part of the central bank. The print produces the equivalent of bank notes for the central bank- fiat bills backed by US political influence and military power. Under the Austrian system, banks would use commodities such as gold as the means of exchange, possible returning to the issuance of bank notes which can redeemed for the means of exchange kept in the bank's vault (eg: the Gold Standard)
whats the point when shit works relatively fine to start with?
The point is that is doesn't.b Fiat currency and the central bank both lead to instability fiat money is easily inflated and the central bank quickly becomes a political tool first and a banking institution second (if it even remembers its task as such).

*'Keynes did adopt labor hours as the measure of value and said he agreed that labor produces all value' Theories of Value and the Monetary Theory of Production

* The right remedy for the trade cycle is not to be found in abolishing booms and thus keeping us permanently in a semi-slump; but in abolishing slumps and thus keeping us permanently in a quasi-boom.
The General Theory of Employment Interest and Money (1935)
o Book 6, Chapter 22, Section 3, pg.322


The Fifth PLank of the Communist Manifesto reads:
5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

The Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx

Just thought everyone needed to read that again...
 
this was a cool thread. mostly shogun and bern80 arguing about whether china was capitalist or not.

anyhow, that austrian shit remains garbage, and the simple question of what to do when commodity-based currency fails to meet the demand for currency in the market remains unanswered. obviously, you could go to war for more gold. in africa, for example, or in the mid east for oil... or you could suffer a deflationary depression like the great depression.

the system reacts too slowly to this volume/value component of the economy, and drags any school of economics adherent to it to the bottom of the lake.

your hopes that removing a central bank will alleviate political and private influence dont come with any systemic safeguards, just hopes that the government, now working more directly with the immediate and termed value of money, will behave differently than they do now, and that banks, in a system which promises more volatile demand for currency than we have now, would be magically pacified. the opposite effects will no-doubt ensue.

only a resource rich start-up nation could benefit from such an approach, and even so, they should consider commodity-backed fiat.

keynes didnt hold that the sum of labor and resources consumed was equal to the value of goods produced. keynes was a capitalist.

marx's conjecture left creation of wealth on the table, i guess because of its social implications. can you recognize that by assuming that the value of money is limited to the commodities it represents, the value of money represented by the volume of produce and trading in the market is similarly left on the table? marx hoped to distribute profit into the economy as more produce and service (?) your austrian mechanism distributes demand for currency into deflation.
 
If the Austrian school is garbage, why have the Austrians repeatedly called economic collapses years before they occurred while the Keynesians and Freshwaters scratched their heads in confusion when the markets tanked?

Commodity-based currency can't fail to meet demand if you're not an idiot who backs your currency with a single material so rare that only three people can have any. Gold, silver, and other precious and semi-precious metals have never failed in that role, nor are they the only commodities with which you can back a currency.
 
predicting economic cycles is not talent, prole. what goes up must come down. am i a genius now?

ive already said you could use oil or something. sure. you can back currencies with all kinds of commodities.

your claim that com-backed currency hasnt failed is false. the great depression is an ideal example. deflation from mismanagement or stagflation in the commodity backing the currency.

what does the red republic do when deflation begins to set in? you either have reserves of commodities which you can introduce as backing (the exact same thing as printing fiat), you have to actually obtain more tangibles through industry or war, despite the effect of deflation on the practices, or you've got to let it ride in a stagflationary depression. am i missing an option?
 
Dubai is hardly done. They will survive. In fact they will always be one of the most powerful economies in the region. Ups & Downs are part of Capitalism. They will be fine.
 
Dubai does practice Free Market Capitalism. But are they a free & open Democracy? That's another question entirely. I'm not ready to call them a free society yet.
 
dunno, man. i'd say some kind of neo-merchantilist setup. the most capitalism they've got going on is the abu-dhabi's dollar hedge. they're in a capitalist world, but its a stretch to call the emirates capitalist.
 
If this system heralded by "conservatives", republicans and corporatists is so unshakably sound and the best system out there - and self-correcting... what the heck happened? Dubai is the "shining Jewel" of free market capitalism in the middle east. Now it is pretty much bankrupt and having to be bailed out by the Saudis.

Also, this came out today:

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Free market flawed, says survey

Dubai's entire buildup was due to borrowing. They borrowed so much money to build their huge buildings, the man-made island,etc. So if they think its a shining example of free market capitalism, then I guess they have no problem with borrowing and having debt then.
 
☭proletarian☭;2194739 said:
If the Austrian school is garbage, why have the Austrians repeatedly called economic collapses years before they occurred while the Keynesians and Freshwaters scratched their heads in confusion when the markets tanked?

Commodity-based currency can't fail to meet demand if you're not an idiot who backs your currency with a single material so rare that only three people can have any. Gold, silver, and other precious and semi-precious metals have never failed in that role, nor are they the only commodities with which you can back a currency.

As did the Marxists decades before the Austrian school, sport.

Boom and bust cycles are inherent in the system of capitalism we practice.

This (I think) natural propensity for complex systems to random walk is further enhanced by the manipulation of money and debt that benefits insiders with the power and position to play them.

Sadly for mankind, we cannot have orderly markets without a government with the power to keep them orderly.

And basic human nature makes those with whom we invest great power, prone to using that power for their own personal benefit.

The flaw that humankind deals with constantly, then, really lies not in our systems of governance or economics, but in our own human natures.
 
Dubai does practice Free Market Capitalism. But are they a free & open Democracy? That's another question entirely. I'm not ready to call them a free society yet.
Can you truly have a free market without liberty?
 
If this system heralded by "conservatives", republicans and corporatists is so unshakably sound and the best system out there - and self-correcting... what the heck happened? Dubai is the "shining Jewel" of free market capitalism in the middle east. Now it is pretty much bankrupt and having to be bailed out by the Saudis.

Also, this came out today:

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Free market flawed, says survey

Dubai's entire buildup was due to borrowing. They borrowed so much money to build their huge buildings, the man-made island,etc. So if they think its a shining example of free market capitalism, then I guess they have no problem with borrowing and having debt then.
Maybe they went to the Chicago/Reagan/Keynesian school of economics?
 
☭proletarian☭;2197827 said:
If this system heralded by "conservatives", republicans and corporatists is so unshakably sound and the best system out there - and self-correcting... what the heck happened? Dubai is the "shining Jewel" of free market capitalism in the middle east. Now it is pretty much bankrupt and having to be bailed out by the Saudis.

Also, this came out today:

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Free market flawed, says survey

Dubai's entire buildup was due to borrowing. They borrowed so much money to build their huge buildings, the man-made island,etc. So if they think its a shining example of free market capitalism, then I guess they have no problem with borrowing and having debt then.
Maybe they went to the Chicago/Reagan/Keynesian school of economics?

Pretty much every president for the past few decades
 
So a bunch of people in countries that have not had real free markets for ages want the government to give them more of other people's money - and we're supposed to be surprised by this?
 

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