Draft-dodger Clinton

[mskafka]

not exactly....he had help, aside from Fulbright too.

this rates low on my Outrago-meter, but lets not play coy.

Who is the "he" who got help? Are you talking about Clinton or Bush?

I see you are well acquainted with the issue.....

what Fulbright do you suppose I am speaking of?

I didn't reference Wikipedia before I posted. Sorry. I was going on what I've heard over the years, not a website. There were many people who "dodged the draft" on the right and the left. I don't give a rat's ass about your "outrage meter". This is a dead issue. It's been years since Bush was president and MANY years since Clinton was president.

So go ahead and call me something original like "idiot" or "moron". Or tell me to "grow a brain, moran". Different day, SOS.

 

[mskafka]

I do miss the days when all America had to worry about, was whether or not the President had dodged the draft. Or we thought that Clinton's draft dodging was all we had to worry about. Weren't we naive?

 

[Trajan]

Who is the "he" who got help? Are you talking about Clinton or Bush?

I see you are well acquainted with the issue.....

what Fulbright do you suppose I am speaking of?

I didn't reference Wikipedia before I posted. Sorry. I was going on what I've heard over the years, not a website. There were many people who "dodged the draft" on the right and the left. I don't give a rat's ass about your "outrage meter". This is a dead issue. It's been years since Bush was president and MANY years since Clinton was president.

So go ahead and call me something original like "idiot" or "moron". Or tell me to "grow a brain, moran". Different day, SOS.

I didn't reference wiki either. you just don't seem to know what you're defending, you made the misleading statment, I didn't *shrugs*

my Outrago meter doesn't click on this becasue of exactly that, many many many got deferments or got a hand in joining orgs like he, Clinton did to stay off the boards' 1A list. I happen to think as a genuine Rhodes scholar he deserved a deferment.

 

[The Gadfly]

Look, I don't especially like the idea of ANYONE, of ANY party, being Commander-in-Chief, without having any idea what it is like to take orders, or what he is asking troops to do; but until we either change the constitutional requirements for the office, or the American people, in their collective wisdom, decides that military service means a lot more to them than it does now, we are going to continue to elect politicians who thought they were too good to serve their country as a lowly soldier, but think themselves well qualified to serve in an office with a lot more power, pay, and privileges. To my way of thinking, if you don't love your country enough to do the hard, dirty, unglamorous and low-paid service she needs, why should I believe you love her enough to serve her in a way that rewards you so so generously in money, honors and power? Sort of shows what America REALLY values, to me, but I guess that's just too old-fashioned for most. Evidently, "Duty, Honor, Country" doesn't matter to most (if it ever did).

 

[mskafka]

Look, I don't especially like the idea of ANYONE, of ANY party, being Commander-in-Chief, without having any idea what it is like to take orders, or what he is asking troops to do; but until we either change the constitutional requirements for the office, or the American people, in their collective wisdom, decides that military service means a lot more to them than it does now, we are going to continue to elect politicians who thought they were too good to serve their country as a lowly soldier, but think themselves well qualified to serve in an office with a lot more power, pay, and privileges. To my way of thinking, if you don't love your country enough to do the hard, dirty, unglamorous and low-paid service she needs, why should I believe you love her enough to serve her in a way that rewards you so so generously in money, honors and power? Sort of shows what America REALLY values, to me, but I guess that's just too old-fashioned for most. Evidently, "Duty, Honor, Country" doesn't matter to most (if it ever did).

I tried to serve in the navy; not the army. I have ventricular arrhythmias, so I am permanantly disqualified. It wasn't from a lack of trying.

I'm guessing you served, judging by how passionately you are speaking of the military?

 

[The Gadfly]

Both wanted to stay out of Vietnam, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't have wanted to go, either.

"Wanting to go" into combat is a pretty strong phrase, in that situation. I think most of us felt we had a DUTY to go, an obligation to our country, and to freedom. I don't think there's much of that mindset left these days.

 

[The Gadfly]

Look, I don't especially like the idea of ANYONE, of ANY party, being Commander-in-Chief, without having any idea what it is like to take orders, or what he is asking troops to do; but until we either change the constitutional requirements for the office, or the American people, in their collective wisdom, decides that military service means a lot more to them than it does now, we are going to continue to elect politicians who thought they were too good to serve their country as a lowly soldier, but think themselves well qualified to serve in an office with a lot more power, pay, and privileges. To my way of thinking, if you don't love your country enough to do the hard, dirty, unglamorous and low-paid service she needs, why should I believe you love her enough to serve her in a way that rewards you so so generously in money, honors and power? Sort of shows what America REALLY values, to me, but I guess that's just too old-fashioned for most. Evidently, "Duty, Honor, Country" doesn't matter to most (if it ever did).

I tried to serve in the navy; not the army. I have ventricular arrhythmias, so I am permanantly disqualified. It wasn't from a lack of trying.

I'm guessing you served, judging by how passionately you are speaking of the military?

Almost ten years active and reserve; one tour as an airborne infantry officer in Vietnam.

 

[mskafka]

Look, I don't especially like the idea of ANYONE, of ANY party, being Commander-in-Chief, without having any idea what it is like to take orders, or what he is asking troops to do; but until we either change the constitutional requirements for the office, or the American people, in their collective wisdom, decides that military service means a lot more to them than it does now, we are going to continue to elect politicians who thought they were too good to serve their country as a lowly soldier, but think themselves well qualified to serve in an office with a lot more power, pay, and privileges. To my way of thinking, if you don't love your country enough to do the hard, dirty, unglamorous and low-paid service she needs, why should I believe you love her enough to serve her in a way that rewards you so so generously in money, honors and power? Sort of shows what America REALLY values, to me, but I guess that's just too old-fashioned for most. Evidently, "Duty, Honor, Country" doesn't matter to most (if it ever did).

I tried to serve in the navy; not the army. I have ventricular arrhythmias, so I am permanantly disqualified. It wasn't from a lack of trying.

I'm guessing you served, judging by how passionately you are speaking of the military?

Almost ten years active and reserve; one tour as an airborne infantry officer in Vietnam.

"If it ever did" would be accurate, considering that many of our politicians are baby boomers. And many of them would have been "of age" during the Vietnam Draft Lottery.

Thank you for your service, btw. The history of the Vietnam War, is fascinating. You guys went through hell. I had two uncles serve in Vietnam. One came back with a nice drug habit. It's truly amazing that any of you came home sane. I have the utmost respect for you.

 

[The Gadfly]

mskafka,
You're welcome. I think the bitter truth is that anyone who goes into combat goes through hell; that is the nature of war, and it is why it hurts to see our young men and women go off to our wars today, and see them come back wounded inside and out. Yet, human nature being what it is, there will always be another war, and another generation who will have to fight it. No matter how we try to sanitize the process, in the end, someone will have to step up and do the hard, brutal nasty job of finishing the thing, or trying to. If the day ever comes when no one is willing to step up, when a generation's installment of the bill for freedom comes due, then freedom will die; there are too many people around the world to whom freedom, as we know it, is a dangerous thing, to be feared, hated, and if possible, destroyed.

 

[ginscpy]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

 

[editec]

WAs Clinton a Draft Dodger?

Yes, he was.

As were so many folks who are now in positions of power and authority.

Apparently few of you guys realize how hard it was for people without connections to legally dodge the draft.

Mostly it was the kids of well connected people who got deferments.


And naturally those types of person will now, thirty years later, are reaching the zenith of their careers and are often found in leadership roles.

 

[ginscpy]

The coward was a bully

shoved to get PresidentKennedy sig in th Rose Garden

 

[High_Gravity]

The coward was a bully

shoved to get PresidentKennedy sig in th Rose Garden

 

[The Gadfly]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

Nah. Al Gore was a military journalist assigned to 20th Engineer BDE, Bien Hoa between Jan. and May 1971. Wrote for the brigade newspaper. Story was (maybe true, maybe not) that he walked around 'Nam with a bodyguard, to make sure he didn't get hurt. Hell, at least he went, and at that time pretty much anyone with a college degree could wangle his way into a non-combat MOS if so inclined (and a lot did). You don't think they were going to let a senator's son (even an ex-senator's son) actually get shot at, do you?

 

[High_Gravity]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

Nah. Al Gore was a military journalist assigned to 20th Engineer BDE, Bien Hoa between Jan. and May 1971. Wrote for the brigade newspaper. Story was (maybe true, maybe not) that he walked around 'Nam with a bodyguard, to make sure he didn't get hurt. Hell, at least he went, and at that time pretty much anyone with a college degree could wangle his way into a non-combat MOS if so inclined (and a lot did). You don't think they were going to let a senator's son (even an ex-senator's son) actually get shot at, do you?

At least Gore went, and didn't duck out of the theatre altogether like ginscpy.

 

[The Gadfly]

WAs Clinton a Draft Dodger?

Yes, he was.

As were so many folks who are now in positions of power and authority.

Apparently few of you guys realize how hard it was for people without connections to legally dodge the draft.

Mostly it was the kids of well connected people who got deferments.


And naturally those types of person will now, thirty years later, are reaching the zenith of their careers and are often found in leadership roles.

That about covers it, editec. Just for example, out of Gore's Harvard class of 1969, If I recall, about TWELVE of them (out of over 1000) actually served. Hell no, the draft of that era wasn't fair; the supposed "best and brightest" got one deferment after another, while draft boards rubber-stamped every conscientious objector application "DENIED". Know what they did with 1-A-os (conscientious objector willing to serve, but not kill)? They sent every one of them to combat medic school-surer ticket to Vietnam than anyone but an infantry officer (likely for the same reason; they tended to get killed). The irony is, those CO medics were some of the bravest men I ever saw; wouldn't carry a weapon, but would run through hell to get to the wounded. Hell of a way to run a war, if you ask me (but of course, no one did). I guess it was no worse than putting half-trained kids who didn't belong in combat in infantry billets, but they did that too. I thought we were there for the right reasons, but that part of it never seemed right to me. Still, we all know which way shit rolls, and the poor damn draftees were at the bottom of the hill.

 

[The Gadfly]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

Nah. Al Gore was a military journalist assigned to 20th Engineer BDE, Bien Hoa between Jan. and May 1971. Wrote for the brigade newspaper. Story was (maybe true, maybe not) that he walked around 'Nam with a bodyguard, to make sure he didn't get hurt. Hell, at least he went, and at that time pretty much anyone with a college degree could wangle his way into a non-combat MOS if so inclined (and a lot did). You don't think they were going to let a senator's son (even an ex-senator's son) actually get shot at, do you?

At least Gore went, and didn't duck out of the theatre altogether like ginscpy.

Yep! I can't say I like much of what the sonofabitch has done since, but credit where credit is due.....

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Look, I don't especially like the idea of ANYONE, of ANY party, being Commander-in-Chief, without having any idea what it is like to take orders, or what he is asking troops to do; but until we either change the constitutional requirements for the office, or the American people, in their collective wisdom, decides that military service means a lot more to them than it does now, we are going to continue to elect politicians who thought they were too good to serve their country as a lowly soldier, but think themselves well qualified to serve in an office with a lot more power, pay, and privileges. To my way of thinking, if you don't love your country enough to do the hard, dirty, unglamorous and low-paid service she needs, why should I believe you love her enough to serve her in a way that rewards you so so generously in money, honors and power? Sort of shows what America REALLY values, to me, but I guess that's just too old-fashioned for most. Evidently, "Duty, Honor, Country" doesn't matter to most (if it ever did).

Coming from a big military family I disagree with this premise as a whole (but not every part of it). I think having the Commander in Chief holding an elected office is part of what makes this country so great. I also think that there are other ways to serve your country and community than just the military.

With that said, I do think that constitution should be followed-and that no president has the right to wage war, without congressional approval. And yes many of those who do that (on both sides), are quick to send the troops into war-when they don't know what it's like.

 

[ginscpy]

WTF did Gore do in Nam anyway????

One of the privilaged elite. Old man was a US Senator. Got out of serving in combat.

Went to massause parlors in Saigon probably...........................

Nah. Al Gore was a military journalist assigned to 20th Engineer BDE, Bien Hoa between Jan. and May 1971. Wrote for the brigade newspaper. Story was (maybe true, maybe not) that he walked around 'Nam with a bodyguard, to make sure he didn't get hurt. Hell, at least he went, and at that time pretty much anyone with a college degree could wangle his way into a non-combat MOS if so inclined (and a lot did). You don't think they were going to let a senator's son (even an ex-senator's son) actually get shot at, do you?

Seems like Gore was out-of harms way in Nam..

About themassuag ething - was thinking about the Portland hotel incident

 

[9thIDdoc]

John Kerry won a Silver Star a Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts......How did you do Swiftboater?

snopes.com: John Kerry's Service Record

Hey, who are you calling "Swiftboater"? Kerry was in fact a swiftboater; I was an Army NCO. Army and Navy are somewhat less than fond of being confused.

Compare records? I don't have a problem with that.

My record does NOT contain anything as damning from a former CO as:


KERRY’S C.O. DISPUTES VALIDITY OF FIRST “WOUND”

Grant Hibbard of Gulf Breeze, Fla., a retired Navy officer, told MilitaryCorruption.com he was the commanding officer to whom Kerry reported his “battle wound” on Dec. 3, 1968.

“I had confirmed that there was no hostile fire that night and that Kerry had simply wounded himself with an M-79 grenade round he fired too close. He wanted a Purple Heart, and I refused.”

The former Navy commander said Louis Letson, the base physician, saw Kerry and used tweezers to remove a tiny piece of shrapnel – about 1 centimeter in length and 2 millimeters in diameter – from the lieutenant j.g.’s (junior grade) forearm.

“Letson confirmed that the scratch had been self-inflicted when Kerry clumsily used the M-79.”

It’s been more than 35 years since the incident, but Hibbard still recalls Kerry’s actions with disgust.

“It is unacceptable to nominate yourself for a combat award. It compromises the basic military principle that we survive together.. To promote yourself is to denigrate your team . . . Kerry orchestrated his way out of Vietnam [in four months – a third of the required tour of duty] and then testified, under oath, before Congress that we, his comrades, had committed horrible war crimes..

“This testimony was a lie and slandered honorable men. We, who were actually there, believe he is unfit to command our sons and daughters.”

http://www.militarycorruption.com/kerry4.htm